Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #2

[MrsThreadgoode]

Finally, I found the posts where this "kidnapping" was previously discussed. If you are still interested in reading those, you can find them in the "Evidence revealed during course of wrongful death suit" thread of this forum.

Oh, that is wonderful. Thank you so very much for taking the time to do that, coastal. Very much appreciated!


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[Sharyne]

Can you give examples of how the various members of the Shacknai family have been shamed?

What I have seen from the Zahau family is that they feel the police dropped the ball and really messed up with the way they selectively neglected & collected evidence & did not brother to collect evidence from most areas of the mansion. Police did not properly protect the crime scene or the evidence. Police procedures at the crime scene were ignored and not followed where they strongly suspected murder.

Gore:
"We fully expected to find many fingerprints in this house because, simply stated, it is a house. Anyone living in or visiting a residence can leave behind fingerprints, which is why we had to focus on items directly related to the event."

“Fingerprints, DNA, and other items left behind in other areas of the mansion have limited value in proving or disproving a crime."

And what about when the defense (Bremmer) was not allowed to view the crime scene by Jonah unless LE was with them, and then LE refused to go there.

 

[inthedark14]

Sorry to disagree.

What good did these “Big media guns” do?
Did they get LE to properly investigate this case? NO
Did it get LE to keep the Zahau family updated and maybe talk to her family and friends to find out more about her? NO
Did it get them a criminal case? NO

All it got them was a wrongful death case (that took them almost 7 years to finally get) which has sunk them in a Huge hole of debt that they will likely never be able to climb out of and if they win the suit they won’t get much money from AS insurance. (According to Greer on tricia’s Podcast ie the go fund me)
With just the hope that this case will be reopened. I think anyone of us would use any help we could get if we were in their shoes. And I think any jury would also see it this way.

Speaking of "big media guns" I wonder if the jury has been told of the high profile PR Firm that was hired by JS after Rebecca's death.

ALWAYS MOO

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[Tortoise]

I'm wondering if all those abrasions on her back could have been made by the wicker chair. It appears to have had a red cushion or similar on it which would have protected skin on her seated area.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=f3i1jd&s=5#.WrjKCC7waM8

chair here

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=131044&stc=1

 

[stmarysmead]

I don’t agree with Roy Blacks letter to Cyril Wecht or the Forbes article in their entirety, but I did find some of the carnival aspects of the media appearances distasteful and frankly disrespectful to the memory of RZ. I wouldn’t want an autopsy of anyone I loved to be a ratings bonanza exploited as it was. To me, that whole autopsy extravaganza was as demeaning to her memory as the way her remains were treated in the courtyard. The public gaping in, during Sweeps Week for Dr Phil..waiting like the finale of The Bachelor for Dr Wecht to announce his “choice”....suicide or homicide... in the finale. There was RZ, exhumed and exposed to the public again.

Yes, I understand the family felt that they needed to get all this media exposure to get this civil suit to court. But some of it went too far, IMO. This article expresses that view:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sheneg...s-exploitation-of-zahau-tragedy/#44f02e697353

And when RZ is being used for ratings by Dr Phil...the family’s fund receiving a donation from the producers to use RZ for ratings week...the flamboyant Dr Wecht using this opportunity to be in the spotlight again...then, for me, the creeping doubt enters, is she also being used by the family for personal gain? I know this will inflame this Board, but, after this spectacle, that began to be an honest doubt in my mind. I honestly hope that the jury was polled to be sure they had NOT seen these shows...for the plaintiffs case as much as the defense.

I know posting this may bring a flurry of unhappy replies, but those appearances cast doubt for me in both directions. Full disclosure...I only read about them, read the articles, the quotes, read the discussion. I find that type of programming offensive. And yes, I understand, the family was desperate for publicity to reopen the case...but a two day autopsy special on Dr Phil’s daytime show during ratings week?

Attorney Black brings up another point: was Wecht truthful about doing this pro bono? Did the family choose him to do the autopsy because he had already made public appearances stating what they wanted to hear BEFORE he even examined RZ? If so, they knew BEFORE the autopsy, what he would announce on the ratings bonanza for Dr Phil. That hardly seems impartial.

I’ll have to read around the Internet to see what he testified.

Here are some snippets from Atty Blacks letter to Dr Wecht.

https://www.royblack.com/blog/dr-phil’s-autopsy/

“Dear Cyril:I am happy to answer the issues raised in your email. You ask why I have such an “intense” interest in the Zahau matter. I spent last summer in Los Angeles and followed the Zahau investigation in the LA Times as I do many criminal cases in the news. I thought it would be a useful exercise for students in my law class on evidence to examine the case. What raised my level of interest to “intense” was the family’s media campaign to hang a false murder charge on Jonah Shacknai. No one else stepped up to examine the matter objectively and rebut the false accusations paraded through many television shows, so I decided to take it on.

The Zahaus and their legal team used these television appearances in a fiercely determined effort to whip-up a virtual lynch mob and march them down to San Diego. Frankly I was surprised when you joined the mob. Their actions are immensely cruel to Shacknai and his remaining family. Is there any consideration of human feelings here? This man’s six-year-old child suffered a horrible two-story fall, was gravely injured and lapsed into a coma. At the time Rebecca hanged herself, a distraught Schnaknai was clinging to the bedside of his dying son Max. Yet now he supposedly murdered her? I can understand the family not accepting the verdict of suicide but using lawyers to turn this into a made-for-television murder is just too much for me to stomach.

Snip

This, of course, raises another question. You asked about my intense interest, so I can do the same with you. Why go on all these TV shows and do an autopsy for free? That seems a pretty intense interest to me, far more than mine. And if you are in the mood for a little self-reflection, why do you think Dr. Phil is so “intensely” interested, enough to turn it into a two-show special? Oh, I would venture to guess exploitation, titillation and the almighty ratings god. In fact, how often do you announce your scientific findings on a daytime entertainment show?

Snip

Now to a matter of more substance. You take umbrage at my statement that your opinions are not “independent.” I say that because you expressed opinions about the case before you did your autopsy and then appeared on Dr. Phil. You prominently said on TV shows and in print that you disagreed with the finding of suicide by the San Diego medical examiner and homicide detectives.
Anne Bremner wrote an article on September 22, 2011, which was published in a blog called “Women in Crime Ink.” she wrote: “Renown pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht has reviewed the autopsy report and has concluded this is not a suicide and that she had blunt force trauma in four places on the top of her head, inconsistent with the fall and consistent with blows that could have rendered Rebecca unconscious.” This is only one of several published source disclosing your opinions.

So prior to your autopsy and prior to “reporting” to the Dr. Phil audience, you had made conclusions. The purpose of any scientific examination is to find the truth, not to confirm what we already believe. We look for what’s there, not for what we want to be there. And that is why I argued you weren’t independent. You had already decided what was there.

You also mention that you are independent because you did this pro bono. I have no idea why that is significant, however in several newspaper articles the Zahau legal team states that they retained you as their forensic expert. Of course I have no idea about the arrangements and fully accept your statement that you are doing it pro bono. I just don’t think it makes any difference.”

 

[Pi2016]

Yes. It is the same one.

I missed this info. So there was a can of diet Dr. Pepper in the master bedroom or the room where Rebecca was murdered?

 

[Pi2016]

IMO...
One of the first witnesses for RZ was the handwriting analyst. Defense pushed hard to prevent his testimony at which Judge also wanted to know if possible to analyze a "painted" message compared to other print form but eventually allowed expert to testify. It's believed that the expert that testified on Friday for defense (intentionally) limited his testimony to answer the Judge's question that it was not possible for him to perform CREDIBLE ANALYSIS without another like kind or "painted" sample.

Regarding knife handle and sexual assault, DNA analyst testified RZ oral swab was 600 nanograms, and knife result 35 where expectation for vaginal blood on knife would be higher. In rebuttal, Greer requested the steak knife (still in the custody of SDSO) delivered to court where the residue currently on this knife showed how "super glue" used by SDSO lab could explain test sample degraded. (I was personally grateful for this info per my earlier post).

There will be no court on Thursday and Friday of this week (Easter/Passover).

There is super-glue on the knife handle? For what, testing? I never heard of anything like this, does anybody know what Mr. Greer is talking about?

 

[Betty P]

I missed this info. So there was a can of diet Dr. Pepper in the master bedroom or the room where Rebecca was murdered?

Minor correction, it's listed as a Dr. Pepper bottle. It's assumed they took it into evidence as they believed the killer drank from it and may have left DNA. It's also assumed it was empty or partially so. I'd have to go back in the old comments, but it was found in the murder room. Remember, in the early days it was believed RZ's death was a murder and was investigated as such.

As information, here's the diagram of the second floor of the mansion showing the location of the murder room and master bedroom

 

[Pi2016]

The 911 call was odd for many reasons -- "I got a girl who hung herself in the guest house"... well, we know the guest house reference is very strange. The "girl" part is also odd since Rebecca was an adult woman, not a child. Also, he never mentions who "the girl" is...wouldn't you automatically say that it's your brother's girlfriend? It's almost as if he's calling in about a stranger.

I think the reason Adam called Rebecca "a girl" and Max "the kid" is because while they were not strangers to him, they would be to dispatch.

I think it's obvious, even now, that Adam has some social oddities. I do not find it sinister, in my opinion it's just a personality trait.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Betty -- Thank you so much! Very helpful to have the link and be able to review this again. BTW, previously I only looked at the list of the items seized. This time I read the whole document. It states, based on the state of the body, it was most likely a homicide and it also states Adam cut the body down then called 911. Hmmmm.... (Sounds like AS did make that statement to more than just the polygrapher)

BBM Shame whoever wrote that could not be subpoenaed by Mr Greer.

I don't think defense has called any of the first responders yet have they? Their observations would be extremely interesting, so I expect they will be kept out too. Does Greer get the opportunity to call witnesses the defense doesn't call? Is that what rebuttal can include?

 

[Tortoise]

There is super-glue on the knife handle? For what, testing? I never heard of anything like this, does anybody know what Mr. Greer is talking about?

Apparently it's used to enhance the prints.

 

[Brit]

This comment from Mary really stood out to me how JS was try to work on a defense of his brother right from the beginning.


“By the way the San Diego Sheriffs Department did not bother looking for her journal. She lived for the moment and loved life too much. And no matter where she was in life, she loved Jesus.

Jonah also chose to keep her journal and all letters from my father to Rebecca. Most of them are in my language, Zahau. Instead he gave that to the defense and they have tried to use it during depositions and trial to try and show Rebecca did not have good relationship with her parents. He kept properties of my sister that he has no right to them. He also accused me of going to Spreckels Mansion and taking Rebecca’s clothes/things few days after Rebecca died. I never went to Coronado island or near that house while we were here to get her body as he accused me per letter sent to me by his attorney Dan Webb.”

This is from an update Mary gave on go fund me.
https://www..com/rydrn-justice-for-rebecca
Update 16

 

[Betty P]

There is super-glue on the knife handle? For what, testing? I never heard of anything like this, does anybody know what Mr. Greer is talking about?

Super glue is applied to evidence to reveal and preserve fingerprints.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5514188/

Cyanoacrylate fuming is a chemical method for the detection of latent fingermarks on non-porous surfaces such as plastic, glass, rubber bands, finished and unfinished wood etc. The method relies on the deposition of polymerized cyanoacrylate ester on latent fingermark residue (Ramotowski 2012). In 1978, Criminal Identification Division of the Japanese National Police Agency devised this method (Carrick 1983). L.W. Wood, in May of 1979, at the Northampton Police Headquarters in the United Kingdom, and, Louis Bourdon, in July of 1980, of Ontario, Canada also concurrent discovered this method (German 2003).

Super Glue Fingerprint Fuming


http://www.instructables.com/id/Super-Glue-Fingerprint-Fuming/


While a great tool for developing and fixing latent fingerprints, it's easy to see how the cyanocrylate can affect some components of DNA in blood evidence. Here's a scholarly article about how this process can reduce DNA evidence

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.e...=Effects_of_latent_fingerprint_developmen.pdf

 

[Tortoise]

This comment from Mary really stood out to me how JS was try to work on a defense of his brother right from the beginning.


“By the way the San Diego Sheriffs Department did not bother looking for her journal. She lived for the moment and loved life too much. And no matter where she was in life, she loved Jesus.

Jonah also chose to keep her journal and all letters from my father to Rebecca. Most of them are in my language, Zahau. Instead he gave that to the defense and they have tried to use it during depositions and trial to try and show Rebecca did not have good relationship with her parents. He kept properties of my sister that he has no right to them. He also accused me of going to Spreckels Mansion and taking Rebecca’s clothes/things few days after Rebecca died. I never went to Coronado island or near that house while we were here to get her body as he accused me per letter sent to me by his attorney Dan Webb.”

This is from an update Mary gave on go fund me.
https://www..com/rydrn-justice-for-rebecca
Update 16

That and sending an attorney to the house. Shows what he thought about suicide without even viewing the crime scene.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Her ex husband was cleared. He wasn't even in the same state, so what does this have to do with her murder?

The sly implication is that she was "unstable" for marrying someone who may or may not have even done that. I find no evidence he did. I'm not going to ask you for a link because it's irrelevant to this case.

Rebecca was not an unstable person. She was healthy and normal woman, living a positive, productive life until someone cruelly and heinously snuffed it out. Then tried to blame her for it. Cell Block Tango defense.

Right, the only thing that would be relevant about her past would be if she had made suicidal comments and/or suicide attempts, which I've seen NO evidence of whatsoever.

Some comments in her journal about frustration with teenagers and her relationship doesn't count as evidence of any suicidal ideation whatsoever. If it did, probably 3/4 of the adult population in the world would be considered suicidal!

 

[MzOpinion8d]

My guess is that, since polygraph is not typically admissible in court, the questions/interview prior to the polygraph is considered part & parcel of the polygraph, so none of it is allowed. I'd love confirmation, but seems to be the case. Typically, though, outside of the poly, we'd have videos with investigators interviews. Those interviews would ask similar open-ended questions and would elicit similar inconsistent responses (I think it's fair to say based on how he was speaking that morning). Those would be allowed in court. If they don't exist, I'd really like to know why. His words that morning are absolute indication of his involvement.

I do hope the David and Goliath situation here is evident to the jury. It's truly a travesty that we even have to be here now, instead of LE just appropriately doing their jobs in the first place.

It's got to be obvious to the jury. The question is how much it will matter to them. I know if I were on a jury and saw one side with 9 attorneys and one side with one attorney, I would immediately think "income disparity" and it would make me suspicious of the party with 9 attorneys (whether plaintiff or dependent) from the start.

I just hope the jurors can see that this lawsuit isn't about the money. It's about getting the truth.

 

[Tortoise]

It's got to be obvious to the jury. The question is how much it will matter to them. I know if I were on a jury and saw one side with 9 attorneys and one side with one attorney, I would immediately think "income disparity" and it would make me suspicious of the party with 9 attorneys (whether plaintiff or dependent) from the start.

I just hope the jurors can see that this lawsuit isn't about the money. It's about getting the truth.

If just one of them is smart I think they'll be able to work out that suing a tugboat captain isn't going to make them rich.

 

[*Lash*]

Speaking of "big media guns" I wonder if the jury has been told of the high profile PR Firm that was hired by JS after Rebecca's death.

ALWAYS MOO

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Wow, I had no idea Adam’s attorney Dan Webb has been working with JS since at least 2011. Adam’s attorney Dan Webb drafted the cease and desist letter to Anne Bremner for JS in 2011!

Shacknai attorney warns Zahau family attorney to 'cease and desist'

Sep 07, 2011

Snip-

Chicago-based attorney Dan Webb emailed the following "cease and desist" letter Tuesday to Seattle-based attorney Anne Bremner, following her appearance on CNN Headline News and interviews with several media outlets including News 8.

Snip-

The letter, obtained by KFMB News 8, appears in its entirety below:

From: "Webb, Dan K." Date: September 6, 2011 6:43:13 AM PDT To: "abremner@XXXXXXXXXXXX.com Subject: Jonah Shacknai

www.cbs8.com/story/15406681/shacknai-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-zahau-family-attorney

 

[Brit]

Was AS ever given a blood test to prove that he had taken ambien the night of the murder?

 

[Tortoise]

Was AS ever given a blood test to prove that he had taken ambien the night of the murder?

I think Mr Webb would have placed it before the court if he had.