CA CA - Hannah, 16, Devonte, 15, & Sierra Hart, 12, Mendocino County, 26 March 2018 #1

[GigTu]

After reading some comments from friends of this family, I reserve judgment until all the facts are in. If these children were being mis-treated, it will come out. If these children were dealing with trauma and food insecurity, the onset of adolescence could make it worse, which will come out. All I know is the outpouring of love for this family, coming from their extended network of family and friends, is enormous.

It's already come out. A neighbors has already reported repeated visits by the kids, who came to their home for food and out of fear. When will society believe the kids or the neighbor over reputation protecting? After they are dead? Oh wait.......
I can't even with this thread!.... :gaah:

 

[unsinkable]

Thanks, this is something I've been thinking about and wondering about:

1. Why is he crying in the photo? Is it because he's so emotional about the "cause" of the protest? Have we attributed our own adult emotions onto this child? Perhaps he was scared, or maybe he was being mistreated at home and that's the emotion we see?

Other thoughts:

2. At first I thought it was likely that both parents decided to drive over the cliff to escape something (ie legal problems). Then what might be an even more horrifying thought occurred to me. Maybe only the adult who was driving had this plan in mind?

3. When CPS shows up at a home, do they identify themselves when they're ringing the doorbell/knocking? Do they have a car that indicates they are CPS? Is there a way that these parents would have known it was CPS at their door?

Any comments? Thanks!

Why IS he crying in the photo? When I first saw it, I assumed it was bc he was afraid of the police and overwhelmed, but I also wondered why his family was allowing it?

Many parents of 12 yo boys know what a rollercoaster ride they can be at that age. It seems like they can cry at the drop of a hat. So why put him in that position?

And finally...if he had attachment issues, the LAST thing they should have been doing was encouraging him to be offering "free hugs." Kids with attachment issues can be inappropriately affectionate to strangers, and know how to give a superficial impression of being a sweet, loving kid to strangers while abusing those close to them.

Then again, I think it is wrong and creepy for any child to have a sign offering "free hugs." Kids shouldn't be offering themselves up like that.

 

[Stunned]

You may be onto something. I've seen mention of the two women, not working, but earning close to $80,000/yr.
for fostering the children. I don't know if it's true, was a comment on a MSM article. I wondered how they could
just up and travel and attend festivals, etc. if either one had a stable job.

Maybe by fostering/adopting special needs children.

 

[akazia1978]

Thanks, this is something I've been thinking about and wondering about:

1. Why is he crying in the photo? Is it because he's so emotional about the "cause" of the protest? Have we attributed our own adult emotions onto this child? Perhaps he was scared, or maybe he was being mistreated at home and that's the emotion we see?

Other thoughts:

2. At first I thought it was likely that both parents decided to drive over the cliff to escape something (ie legal problems). Then what might be an even more horrifying thought occurred to me. Maybe only the adult who was driving had this plan in mind?

3. When CPS shows up at a home, do they identify themselves when they're ringing the doorbell/knocking? Do they have a car that indicates they are CPS? Is there a way that these parents would have known it was CPS at their door?

Any comments? Thanks!

Hi, I'll just throw my 2 cents in on a couple of things. First, my father is VERY Pro-Choice and has done a lot of speaking around it. When we first moved to the US, he was asked to do 20/20...unfortunately during that time (early/mid 90s) there was a lot going on and he often received threats even before the offer. He declined it out of fear for us and his family.

With regards to CPS, at least in the state of CO there are different levels of calls. Some calls are deemed immediate response, and no CPS does not give you a ring prior. Often times a case worker will go to the school and locate the child and speak to them there.

There are also other levels that are classified as non-immediate response, for example, if the child is staying with safe guardians, or it is an older teen....in which case CPS may respond days with a home visit or call scheduling a visit to the person/persons in question. CPS workers do not (at least here) have a car stamped with CPS on the side. Overall, it's a very low paying profession and generally an entry level job for people going into social work.

My guess is that given the former charge, this would be classified as high risk, and they would show up the same day, or within 24 hours. You don't have to let CPS in your house, but it looks highly suspect if you do not, and a court order can be granted. It's possible CPS called them to schedule a home visit, and they just didn't answer the door.

 

[keeleydoll]

Free Hugs Campaign

“The Free Hugs campaign in its present form was started by Juan Mann on June 30, 2004, when he began giving out hugs in the Pitt Street Mall in central Sydney. In the months prior to this, Mann had been feeling depressed and lonely as a result of numerous personal difficulties. However, a random hug from a stranger made an enormous difference, with Mann stating that "...I went out to a party one night and a completely random person came up to me and gave me a hug. I felt like a king! It was greatest thing that ever happened."”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Hugs_Campaign

About the crying, he may just be a very emotional person. I cry at the drop of a hat, I always have and I can’t help it... I could be happy, excited, sad, it drives me bonkers. I can’t even read certain books to my kids without crying.

ETA that said about the Free Hugs Campaign as a mother I would be very uncomfortable with any of my children hugging strangers.

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[RiceCasparr]

Free Hugs Campaign

“The Free Hugs campaign in its present form was started by Juan Mann on June 30, 2004, when he began giving out hugs in the Pitt Street Mall in central Sydney. In the months prior to this, Mann had been feeling depressed and lonely as a result of numerous personal difficulties. However, a random hug from a stranger made an enormous difference, with Mann stating that "...I went out to a party one night and a completely random person came up to me and gave me a hug. I felt like a king! It was greatest thing that ever happened."”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Hugs_Campaign

About the crying, he may just be a very emotional person. I cry at the drop of a hat, I always have and I can’t help it... I could be happy, excited, sad, it drives me bonkers. I can’t even read certain books to my kids without crying.


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I thought I had read above that he was crying previous to the photo while in a discussion/argument with his mom...who then prompted him to hug the officer.

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[HearMeRoar]

I'm skeptical unless there is proof of death threats. I have seen many people lie and fabricate persecution. I have a family member who did this. She cut off the entire family and was lying to everyone else claiming they cut her off and were persecuting her. Others I've known online claiming they were being targeted and threatened and extensive probing finds that it was fabricated.

So when a family with a documented history of abuse claims they received death threats and isolates themselves I'm left very much doubting any substantive threats. I mean surely these threats were reported to the police and the police followed through on them. There should be something other than just online claims to friends etc. The police would have taken it seriously. If you had death threats serious enough to move and isolate yourself you should have something to back it up.

They claimed they were being threatened so they needed to move to the middle of nowhere, pull their kids out of school, punish them by depriving them of food, avoid the CPS visits and then their supporters decide they must have just accidentally drove off a cliff. Sure... When CPS shows up you don't not answer the door, load up the truck and go driving on the precarious edge of a cliff for a better view.

Good point beatrixpotter. Interesting that the parents exerted control by (sometimes) dressing everyone in identical clothes (who does that?) which invites comments from everyone and gives them (much needed?) attention to validate the parents' narcissism. Conversely the parents then isolate their family in order to continue the pattern of abuse (and control). IMO You need a reason for your isolation, so maybe death threats? Oh they probably had haters, but they also had cheerleaders.

 

[keeleydoll]

3. When CPS shows up at a home, do they identify themselves when they're ringing the doorbell/knocking? Do they have a car that indicates they are CPS? Is there a way that these parents would have known it was CPS at their door?

Any comments? Thanks!

RSBM

In VA, CPS will try to call before the first visit after a call. If there is no phone contact available or answer they will show up. They use their private unmarked vehicles and just knock on the door like anyone else would. There is no uniform or visible badge or anything.

source - a CPS worker friend


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[BillieL]

Has it been confirmed that the children were denied food as a result from autopsies, or is that information only coming from the neighbor?


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[K_Z]

Also, at the very early point that WA CPS were getting involved, there is no reason to believe that they would have been aware of the previous abuse charges in MN. That might have come out later, if they opened a case file.

That's sometimes why abusive families move around so much. It's relatively easy to evade social services (and LE) that way.

 

[Stunned]

Free Hugs Campaign

“The Free Hugs campaign in its present form was started by Juan Mann on June 30, 2004, when he began giving out hugs in the Pitt Street Mall in central Sydney. In the months prior to this, Mann had been feeling depressed and lonely as a result of numerous personal difficulties. However, a random hug from a stranger made an enormous difference, with Mann stating that "...I went out to a party one night and a completely random person came up to me and gave me a hug. I felt like a king! It was greatest thing that ever happened."”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Hugs_Campaign

About the crying, he may just be a very emotional person. I cry at the drop of a hat, I always have and I can’t help it... I could be happy, excited, sad, it drives me bonkers. I can’t even read certain books to my kids without crying.

ETA that said about the Free Hugs Campaign as a mother I would be very uncomfortable with any of my children hugging strangers.

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I never made my kids hug anyone they didn’t know, or hardly knew. It was up too them if they wanted to hug family members they knew and were comfortable with. That also applied to relatives who insisted on their children hugging me. I nicely just shook hands, if they were ok with that.

 

[HearMeRoar]

RSBM

In VA, CPS will try to call before the first visit after a call. If there is no phone contact available or answer they will show up. They use their private unmarked vehicles and just knock on the door like anyone else would. There is no uniform or visible badge or anything.

source - a CPS worker friend


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Likewise in PA CPS often makes a courtesy call to alert the family and provide time to process the information and assure they will be at home when CPS visits. Cars are not marked. There is a badge (ID) to identify oneself. (I worked in CPS for a while.) I was also trained not to "leave" immediately; go around the back, knock on neighbors doors (without giving any info), go around the block, then come back, call the family while on the porch, etc etc.

 

[Breezie]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5561239/Black-box-lesbian-couples-SUV-determine-fast-going.

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/lo...amily-found-dead-in-cliff-crash/283-533242315

Daily mail has a new article that says the SUV has an equivalent of a black box that should help determine how fast it was going and also provide some braking info. Their two dogs are missing so they may have dropped the dogs off somewhere. They could have arranged for someone to feed the other animals on the property. This is spring break time so it is possible that they had scheduled the trip in advance. Homeschooling families can travel anytime but they may prefer to travel during school breaks to avoid questions about school.
http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2018/03/for_devonte_and_his_siblings_p.html

Oregon Live has an article about both sibling groups being adopted from Texas. They were probably adopted by Jen before the marriage. As a few people mentioned, Sarah may have taken the blame, for the 2010 incident, because Jen was the adopted parent and the stay at home parent. Sarah had a job working in a clothing store during that time period.

 

[K_Z]

One of the immensely frustrating aspects of domestic adoption of vulnerable kids from the foster care system is the very short amount of formal follow up that occurs.

As a comparison, our last child is adopted internationally. We had FIVE years of mandatory appointments, post placement reports, and follow up that we had to PRE PAY before our adoption (largely because too many adoptive parents are noncompliant with post placement requirements of the country of origin of the child). Documents we were required to sign advised us that if we missed any reports or visits in the international post placement process, we would be immediately referred to CPS and LE. (And we have no criminal history, or any other red flags.)

In the U.S., once a domestic adoption is final, there is little to no follow up. All the supervision and evaluation occurs ahead of the adoption.

For comparison, there are parents who have lost custody who regain it, and have less follow up mandated by courts than we had for our international adoption. I'm not saying we shouldn't have 5 years of follow up, but there is no consistency in the process between domestic and international adoptions. Many kids domestically adopted have far more serious situations and traumas than internationally adopted kids.

We do a terrible job in this country, IMO, of determining which children at risk need prolonged follow up by social services.

 

[KaaBoom]

After reading some comments from friends of this family, I reserve judgment until all the facts are in. If these children were being mis-treated, it will come out. If these children were dealing with trauma and food insecurity, the onset of adolescence could make it worse, which will come out. All I know is the outpouring of love for this family, coming from their extended network of family and friends, is enormous.

I think it has already come out. It came out when one of the women was convicted of child abuse.

 

[Breezie]

There is a huge discrepancy between how the couple is described by friends and the way they are portrayed in the media. It is possible both descriptions are true. Sarah may have provided some joy to offset Jen’s harsh discipline. Jen would also have been less stressed when the family was at music festivals and other events. If you look for posts, on FB, about DH, there are some spontaneous and joyful photos, of the family, taken by professional photographers during musical events that pop up.

 

[K_Z]

As far as "making" the kids dress alike-- I cut the Hart women a serious amount of slack on this, and don't feel we have enough information to make that a valid criticism, or imply it's part of a coercive lifestyle.

All the family photos released to the news are posed, from one of their trips to rallies, etc. Many families who never dress alike, will wear matching t-shirts to a family reunion, or a theme park, a festival, a cause like a breast cancer support marathon, etc. It's both a way to announce your "cause", and a way to quickly identify your group members. It's also a camaraderie thing.

These women have a lot to criticize about their parenting and behavior, IMO-- but matching t-shirts isn't something I can condemn.

 

[katydid23]

I think any system where people are inflexible and adhere to rigid beliefs can attract people who may have "issues". However, studies have definitively shown that child abuse, sexual assault and domestic violence are high in strict religious patriarchies when compared to any other types of cultural groups. Religious or secular.

However, there are also cults that I knew of , where 'free love' was practiced in communes, and the children were included in that 'free love' philosophy. I met many women from those kinds of Hippie/LOVE families, who were abused/neglected by their parents, and given drugs as young children, and 'allowed' to have sex at very young ages. And some were even passed around by their parents. [ met these victims when I was in a support group for child abuse survivors.]


Also, 'the Family', which was a cult run by a twisted woman. It was more of a matriarchy.

 

[katydid23]

As far as "making" the kids dress alike-- I cut the Hart women a serious amount of slack on this, and don't feel we have enough information to make that a valid criticism, or imply it's part of a coercive lifestyle.

All the family photos released to the news are posed, from one of their trips to rallies, etc. Many families who never dress alike, will wear matching t-shirts to a family reunion, or a theme park, a festival, a cause like a breast cancer support marathon, etc. It's both a way to announce your "cause", and a way to quickly identify your group members. It's also a camaraderie thing.

These women have a lot to criticize about their parenting and behavior, IMO-- but matching t-shirts isn't something I can condemn.

My parents dressed us in matching bright t-shirts when we went to amusement parks because Mom wanted to be able to pick us out of a crowd if we strayed too far. I think many families do that.

 

[K_Z]

I saw a local article that said they had 2 dogs and LE found 2 feed bowls, 2 doggy beds and 2 leashes. LE has asked public for info on missing dogs.

With all the publicity this sad case has received, I think it's impossible that the dogs are in a kennel, or being looked after by friends who just haven't seen the news yet.

If the dogs got out, they would have been seen by now, looking for food.

The missing dogs are another piece of this puzzle. I suspect they took the dogs with them when they left. (I wonder if they usually took the dogs in the car?)

One article mentioned a purse and small articles thrown from the car at the scene, but no bigger bags, or duffles, backpacks, or luggage.

I'm thinking they piled the kids in the car, put the dogs in, and took off with only purses/ wallets. Maybe they did't tell the kids where they were going, or told them it was a surprise. Or had a cover story, like they were all going out for breakfast, so the kids would comply easily and get in the car.

If this family stayed anywhere, stopped for gas and got out, or ate in a restaurant, someone would have come forward by now to say they saw them.

I think whatever their route was, they seldom left the car during the 8+ hours of travel.