Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[southernmimi]

Could be because she was a mean and crazy witch, but I personally think it was the douche nozzle.

 

[Cottonstar]

BoldBear,

Depends what you call Lint in my part of world its what comes from bedsheets or the general ooze from fabrics. The presence of Lint does not support JonBenet walking about the basement barefoot?

It is consistent with JonBenet being carried down to the basement and hidden away somewhere.



Lets put it this way, a naive interpretation has Patsy attempting to stage herself out of a homicide case, yet at the end of the day she has deposited more forensic evidence than was present at the beginning, resulting in her being directly linked to JonBenet's body.

Some result !

Patsy was staging for someone else, otherwise she would have a ready explanation for the size-12's, etc. Her story about redressing JonBenet when they arrived back from the White's can be seen as a cover for someone who redressed JonBenet!

All those that believe what comes out of Patsy's mouth are going to end up with a PDI, since they think its the only way to reconcile the forensic evidence.

One alternative is to assume Patsy is lying and that she helped stage the wine-cellar crime-scene to assist another family member?

The other salient aspect to the case, is who assaulted Jonbenet intimately? Coroner Meyer suggested it was Digital Penetration and Sexual Contact, that is pretty specific, it goes beyond assault by any old instrument, then apparently his verbatem remarks were confirmed when later that night JonBenet was internally examined by an independent ME, who did not disagree with Meyer's original opinion.

So if the case is PDI, why did Patsy sexually assault JonBenet, lets hear all the PDI theories explain the Coroners findings?

.

The lint could be anything, like sock removal.

BR admitting that he was the one that opened the presents in the cellar is damning evidence against him. Patsy would have no reason to lie about this in her testimony if PDI. Also, the LEGO set that was completely unwrapped is compelling.


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[BoldBear]

[snip]
All those that believe what comes out of Patsy's mouth are going to end up with a PDI, since they think its the only way to reconcile the forensic evidence.
[snip]

Is that what that means? And there are no other possible explanations for the forensic evidence? You think that anyone could ever lie to the police to hide something that's personally embarrassing? You think John or Patsy ever had secrets they tried to keep from each other?

 

[Tadpole12]

ya, @ Cs
sock lint

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?121763-Socks-Was-Jon-Benet-wearing-them



I forget .... what about the socks?
Were they found, taken as evidence?

 

[UKGuy]

The lint could be anything, like sock removal.

BR admitting that he was the one that opened the presents in the cellar is damning evidence against him. Patsy would have no reason to lie about this in her testimony if PDI. Also, the LEGO set that was completely unwrapped is compelling.


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Cottonstar,

The lint could be anything, like sock removal.

So why bother calling anything Lint?

BR admitting that he was the one that opened the presents in the cellar is damning evidence against him. Patsy would have no reason to lie about this in her testimony if PDI.

Sure but it might also be a cover story, just like Patsy's redressing JonBenet in Burke's longjohns removes him from any blame. i.e. BR saying he was in the wine-cellar covers fo any forensic traces?

Also, the LEGO set that was completely unwrapped is compelling.

You have a point there ! Its actually more salient than opening the gifts, i.e. its not opened !

It coud be the R's are all lying for each other, so assuming what they say is factually correct might lead you up the path.

.

 

[archieil]

Hmm...

Maybe it was not Patsy sweater but she was walking with JBR bottom searching for her in the morning and she used it to check her in the basement.

Do I remember correctly bottom of the turtleneck was missing?

I am assuming she checked the tape on her mouth with something trying to avoid using bare hands.

She could be walking with part of JBR dressing.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,

So why bother calling anything Lint?


Sure but it might also be a cover story, just like Patsy's redressing JonBenet in Burke's longjohns removes him from any blame. i.e. BR saying he was in the wine-cellar covers fo any forensic traces?


You have a point there ! Its actually more salient than opening the gifts, i.e. its not opened !

It coud be the R's are all lying for each other, so assuming what they say is factually correct might lead you up the path.

.

Nevertheless, both PR and BR are forensically tied to the murder scene.


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[UKGuy]

Nevertheless, both PR and BR are forensically tied to the murder scene.


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Cottonstar,
ITA. Yet are they tied because they killed JonBenet or simply faked a crime-scene?

.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,
ITA. Yet are they tied because they killed JonBenet or simply faked a crime-scene?

.

The cellar room crime scene was perhaps hasty. The upstairs show was pure pageantry, starring Patsy Ramsey with JR as the director.


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[Tadpole12]

UK, a dumping ground of the 'evidence' gathered,
which would have been included at the
body relocation site, establishing that JBR
was held captive for a period of time?

 

[UKGuy]

UK, a dumping ground of the 'evidence' gathered,
which would have been included at the
body relocation site, establishing that JBR
was held captive for a period of time?

Tadpole12,
If there was only Lint on the soles of JonBenet's feet then its likely she was carried down to the basement, otherwise you might expect to see fiber and detritus from other parts of the house, e.g. breakfast-bar?

Kolar might tell you JonBenet was moved from the breakfast-bar, Steve Thomas from her bedroom.

What is it you think that establishes that JonBenet was held captive?

.

 

[UKGuy]

The cellar room crime scene was perhaps hasty. The upstairs show was pure pageantry, starring Patsy Ramsey with JR as the director.


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Cottonstar,
Sure and JonBenet's bedroom from where its alleged by the R's that she was abducted does not correspond with an intruder abduction crime-scene !

i.e. JonBenet's bedroom has not been staged to match a kidnapping.

JonBenet's pink barbie nightgown was likely removed from here, but possibly not by the same person who took her size-6 underwear, and the remaining size-12's, note BPD have never revealed if they found a pair of Wednesday Bloomingdale's size-6.

That is the person who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's and Burke's longjohns ia not the same person who carried her down to the basement along with the nightgown?

I am ruling Patsy out as redressing JonBenet in the size-12's since she never had a convincing explanation how JonBenet ended up wearing them, she also avoided ever saying she saw what underwear JonBenet wore to the White's party, either when she was dressing to leave or when Patsy redressed her on return.

On this aspect alone that leaves JR or BR as prime suspects. If you eliminate BR on the grounds he was not sexually mature at the time of JonBenet's death and accept Coroner Meyer's opinion of Sexual Contact and Digital Penetration then you end up with JR.

The latter fits with JR knowing which items of evidence require to be explained away in advance and those that can be neglected until pressed, e.g. samsonite suitcase.

 

[BoldBear]

[snip]
Sure and JonBenet's bedroom from where its alleged by the R's that she was abducted does not correspond with an intruder abduction crime-scene !

i.e. JonBenet's bedroom has not been staged to match a kidnapping.

Just curious, but what was Jonbenet's bedroom supposed to look like if she was kidnapped? Do you think a kidnapper would need to toss the room in order to subdue a 6 year old who's parents said she was a sound sleeper?

 

[Cottonstar]

UK, a dumping ground of the 'evidence' gathered,
which would have been included at the
body relocation site, establishing that JBR
was held captive for a period of time?

“a dumping ground of evidence gathered”

Now we’re talking.


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[UKGuy]

Just curious, but what was Jonbenet's bedroom supposed to look like if she was kidnapped? Do you think a kidnapper would need to toss the room in order to subdue a 6 year old who's parents said she was a sound sleeper?

BoldBear,
In their book Crime Scene Staging published in the USA by Charles Thomas, Illinois 2017, the authors identify two types of sexual staging:


Secondary Staging
Where the victim is posed in some sexual stylized position to satisfy the emotional needs of the killer, i.e. they do not involve misdirection of a police investigation.


Staged Sexual Homicide:
Staging a murder scene to resemble a sexual homicide or as a sexual assault that turned into murder is one of the more common themes.

Normally in most of these staged sexual homicides there is something absent which is obvious to the trained eye. Some factor which suggests the staged sexual assault was unlikely, given the presented forensic evicence.

The wine-cellar crime-scene falls into the latter description. Even if the sexual assault is staged the intent to misdirect is patently present.


So depending on your favorite RDI theory, someone in the Ramsey household staged a Sexual Homicide involving JonBenet located in the wine-cellar.

In essence JonBenet's clothing matches that of the parent's version of events. Now when JonBenet was put to bed we assume the bed was reasonably tidy, etc.

Note JonBenet's black velvet pants on the other bed in the her room, this is an incidental detail we might expect, as is the dressing of her hair:

Autopsy: External Examination

The scalp is covered by long blonde hair which is fixed in two ponytails, one on top of the head secured by a cloth hair tie and blue elastic band, and one in the lower back of the head secured by a blue elastic band.

i.e. JonBenet was prepared for bed.

So if someone sneaks into JonBenet's bedroom scooping her half-asleep out of her bed, then her bed should be minimally disturbed.

Yet this is not what is presented in the crime-scene photos, from memory, one of her pillows had made the journey down to the kitchen table, so did the intruder take a pillow?

So although the details might vary across staged bedroom crime-scenes, we might expect a degree of domestic tidyness in an attempt to fake whatever is normal in the bedroom?

This is singularly lacking in JonBenet's bedroom suggesting this was not considered as a staging element?

.

 

[Cottonstar]

BoldBear,
In their book Crime Scene Staging published in the USA by Charles Thomas, Illinois 2017, the authors identify two types of sexual staging:


Secondary Staging
Where the victim is posed in some sexual stylized position to satisfy the emotional needs of the killer, i.e. they do not involve misdirection of a police investigation.


Staged Sexual Homicide:
Staging a murder scene to resemble a sexual homicide or as a sexual assault that turned into murder is one of the more common themes.

Normally in most of these staged sexual homicides there is something absent which is obvious to the trained eye. Some factor which suggests the staged sexual assault was unlikely, given the presented forensic evicence.

The wine-cellar crime-scene falls into the latter description. Even if the sexual assault is staged the intent to misdirect is patently present.


So depending on your favorite RDI theory, someone in the Ramsey household staged a Sexual Homicide involving JonBenet located in the wine-cellar.

In essence JonBenet's clothing matches that of the parent's version of events. Now when JonBenet was put to bed we assume the bed was reasonably tidy, etc.

Note JonBenet's black velvet pants on the other bed in the her room, this is an incidental detail we might expect, as is the dressing of her hair:


i.e. JonBenet was prepared for bed.

So if someone sneaks into JonBenet's bedroom scooping her half-asleep out of her bed, then her bed should be minimally disturbed.

Yet this is not what is presented in the crime-scene photos, from memory, one of her pillows had made the journey down to the kitchen table, so did the intruder take a pillow?

So although the details might vary across staged bedroom crime-scenes, we might expect a degree of domestic tidyness in an attempt to fake whatever is normal in the bedroom?

This is singularly lacking in JonBenet's bedroom suggesting this was not considered as a staging element?

.

UK,

Perhaps there is a problem with believing that the staging falls into the category you speak of.

I believe the staging was the exact opposite of staging a sexual assault. The sexual assault that occurred that night, along with the previous sexual activity that was ongoing - is the main motive for the cover-up. The Ramseys had a psychological need to DISTANCE themselves from the sexual aspect of what happened. We see it in the ransom note. Think about this. If John and Patsy had put in some sort of sexual verbiage in the note e.g. “we’ve been watching your daughter in pageants”, or something like “we love the smell of her blonde hair”, this would have been beneficial to them, because they would have directed the investigation to a pedophile, monster. But, in doing so, it would have drawn all of the attention and investigative focus to the sexual aspect of the homicide. This is why they couldn’t go that route. The last thing they wanted was the magnifying glass on JB’s vagina and into the family dynamics. This is why they chose the hasty “inside job” angle. They went all in on this, fingering LHP as soon as the police walked through the door. 3 months later, Lou Smit would give birth to the intruder theory, and the Ramseys jumped aboard Smit’s laughable window theory. Too bad, JR never mentions the open, broken window in the basement to the police on the morning of the 26th. This further shows that the initial staging that took place that night was not staged to point to a strange intruder.


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[UKGuy]

UK,

Perhaps there is a problem with believing that the staging falls into the category you speak of.

I believe the staging was the exact opposite of staging a sexual assault. The sexual assault that occurred that night, along with the previous sexual activity that was ongoing - is the main motive for the cover-up. The Ramseys had a psychological need to DISTANCE themselves from the sexual aspect of what happened. We see it in the ransom note. Think about this. If John and Patsy had put in some sort of sexual verbiage in the note e.g. “we’ve been watching your daughter in pageants”, or something like “we love the smell of her blonde hair”, this would have been beneficial to them, because they would have directed the investigation to a pedophile, monster. But, in doing so, it would have drawn all of the attention and investigative focus to the sexual aspect of the homicide. This is why they couldn’t go that route. The last thing they wanted was the magnifying glass on JB’s vagina and into the family dynamics. This is why they chose the hasty “inside job” angle. They went all in on this, fingering LHP as soon as the police walked through the door. 3 months later, Lou Smit would give birth to the intruder theory, and the Ramseys jumped aboard Smit’s laughable window theory. Too bad, JR never mentions the open, broken window in the basement to the police on the morning of the 26th. This further shows that the initial staging that took place that night was not staged to point to a strange intruder.


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Cottonstar.
It falls into the sexual assault that becomes a murder category, yet you can also interpret it as a staged sexual assault, it just depends on your favorite RDI, there is no smoking gun, so take your pick.

IMO its JonBenet's homicide that is staged not the sexual assault which Coroner Meyer offered his opinion on, i.e. it was not staged, he undertook a second examination of JonBenet's genitals which confirmed his original assumption.

.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar.
It falls into the sexual assault that becomes a murder category, yet you can also interpret it as a staged sexual assault, it just depends on your favorite RDI, there is no smoking gun, so take your pick.

IMO its JonBenet's homicide that is staged not the sexual assault which Coroner Meyer offered his opinion on, i.e. it was not staged, he undertook a second examination of JonBenet's genitals which confirmed his original assumption.

.

There were plenty of guns smoking in the first week of the investigation. While everyone was looking at the ransom note, they smoldered out, and were buried with pageantry and princess videos displayed across our screens.

Soon, the wooden stick was billed as a perverted garrote, and the story of JR carrying JB up to bed after she fell asleep on the way home became FACT, even though he told French and Arndt he read to the kids before they went to bed.

But what do you see through all the pageantry?

A smoking Swiss Army knife with tape residue on it.


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[UKGuy]

There were plenty of guns smoking in the first week of the investigation. While everyone was looking at the ransom note, they smoldered out, and were buried with pageantry and princess videos displayed across our screens.

Soon, the wooden stick was billed as a perverted garrote, and the story of JR carrying JB up to bed after she fell asleep on the way home became FACT, even though he told French and Arndt he read to the kids before they went to bed.

But what do you see through all the pageantry?

A smoking Swiss Army knife with tape residue on it.


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Cottonstar,
Curiously John and Patsy are directly linked to the wine-cellar and JonBenet, via fibers left on her body. Burke is indirectly linked via touch-dna on the bloodstained nightgown.

its likely all the forensic evidence left in the basement corresponds with the act of staging, not that of homicide or sexual assault.

Whatever happened to JonBenet probably took place in her bedroom after she had snacked pineapple.

.

 

[Cottonstar]

Cottonstar,
Curiously John and Patsy are directly linked to the wine-cellar and JonBenet, via fibers left on her body. Burke is indirectly linked via touch-dna on the bloodstained nightgown.

its likely all the forensic evidence left in the basement corresponds with the act of staging, not that of homicide or sexual assault.

Whatever happened to JonBenet probably took place in her bedroom after she had snacked pineapple.

.

UK,

I disagree.


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