CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #5

[bluesneakers]

Are you a moderator?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...ounty-26-March-2018-1&p=14033112#post14033112

 

[Whiteorchids]

Not OP, but the real issue seems (to me) like it's that we know that the white parents were (and still are, at least by some) given the benefit of the doubt so many times.

Do you have a credible link to back this up? <modsnip>

 

[Sleuth99]

All of the above, in my opinion, just gives a smoke screen allowing others to avoid personal accountability.

You say it is not about 'blame.'

Are we not blaming the Hart couple for their horrid actions? I think so and it is reasonable to do so.

But there is plenty of blame to go around, in my opinion.

I said it's about influence and power. That's not a smoke screen. It's an assessment of the situation as a whole. I already said it can't be isolated into one moment. <modsnip>


IMO

 

[musemoon]

Actually, there have been advocates for orphanage type living as better than foster care.

There are things that may work such as the decriminalization of drug offenses. Provide living situations for the mother and child with parenting care and classes.

Work on the equality of women. Work on things such as the issues of “locker room”talk.

Work on the toxic masculnity men are raised in here so their self esteem is riased and they do not need to do all of their weird posturing.

Make schools better. Smaller class sizes. Adequate support such as counselors, social workers , psychologists right in the schools to,provide mental health services. Not as pullout, but for classes as a whole so kids are not singled out as needing mental health services.

If kids are found to need services, provide it after school with transportaion, if needed.

Jobs in inner cities. After school programs.

It will take money to work on providing opportunities for people so they don’t create more people with issues.

I see some of this as a real viable solution. Provide services for the parents before their children even enter foster care. Offer housing, transportation, parenting, therapy, rehab, childcare, counselors, work options....they might have a case plan, but it's with their children in a safe environment with lots of support, then if they are not able, after a certain and reasonable amount of time (long enough to really make progress towards healthier parenting), then removal would have to be discussed. However, it might seem punitive to live under that much supervision for some....and then where to go? In some cases I really believe that group living, support and supervision are necessary for child welfare and safety for anyone of any color facing the issues that threaten having children removed from their home. But....this has it's issues as well. After school care, healthy meals, counselors, classes, therapy, a buddy....would definitely help.

 

[human]

This case is complicated. Yes, it’s illustrative of racism. But, there is also a long history of the adoption of children of many colors and ehtniticites&#8202;—&#8202;inluding many white children by white parents&#8202;—&#8202;being abused, starved, caged, burned, abandoned, rehomed, and killed. See: http://poundpuplegacy.org/abuse_cases

Many people adopt to improve their image as good semaritans or liberals but are anything but.

I could not look at more than a few. I am very disturbed by the ones that adopted ten or more kids. It is hard enough to raise one child.

Also, I feel in these large families where it is impossible to do all chores and provide enough emotional attention to children, that some children have to take on a parenting role. I see this in Devonte. This is not simply getting a diaper for a child or watching the sibling while someone goes to the bathroom. This parentization causes lifelong problems..

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/...eir-siblings-it-affects-them-for-life/543975/

 

[katydid23]

I said it's about influence and power. That's not a smoke screen. It's an assessment of the situation as a whole. I already said it can't be isolated into one moment. <modsnip>


IMO

The children were born with crack in their blood stream. That cannot be ignored and then assessed as 'influence and power.'

<modsnip>

 

[Whiteorchids]

I hope LE are at least 99% sure this was an intentional murderous act. These women were horrible awful people but can you imagine if they fell asleep and bad alignment caused that vehicle to veer off that cliff. It would be awful to be accused of being remembered as purposely murdering all the children when it never happened that way.

I wonder how reliable that suv black box was? They originally thought the SUV been going 90mph but LE later said it was wrong and the spindle got messed up when it went over. What are the chances the black box be wrong too?

I was looking at some more photos of the scene. There were different angles it didn’t look as high as I thought. If they/ Jen did plan to commit suicide it seems like they would have picked a much higher cliff or mountain to guarantee their deaths. It was a big heavy SUV which is better made for hard mountain driving which would have more safety protection then say a sedan in events of rollover etc.

IMHO I think they all got into a huge argument so they pulled over stopped and continued arguing Jen got really mad went off the handle and said to hell with it and gassed it off the cliff. I really don’t think this was a planned suicide.

 

[Sleuth99]

The children were born with crack in their blood stream. That cannot be ignored and then assessed as 'influence and power.'

<modsnip>

Can you confirm the crack in their blood stream with a link? I may have missed that line.

If you closely read my posts I'm speaking of the influence and power that the Hart women accessed. I think we've made our views clear. Let's remember that the heart of the matter is that the Hart women murdered their children (with two yet to be recovered). Whether they were born with crack in their system is not what killed them.


IMO

 

[Bree1950]

I typed out a comment earlier and then in the middle of my typing - POOF! I'll start over. I felt at the beginning of this case that the Mom's may have started out with good intentions, became overwhelmed, lacked parenting skills and got in to a pattern of abuse UNTIL I read the article about the first foster daughter that I had not previously knew existed. I can't imagine anyone driving a child to a therapy appointment, never saying Good Bye or discussing the fact with the child, but having the therapist tell them they would not be returning to their home to find out later they had removed all of her items while she was in school! This is very cold, unfeeling behavior! This brings me to my next thoughts that I can't imagine a therapist not making a record of this to CPS and someone stopping the fostering of the three children arriving from Texas until the situation was investigated. I feel they demonstrated severe emotional abuse on the first foster daughter!

 

[Starkville]

I really wish that I could understand the logic of those that think that these 6 kids came wired as normal with no issues whatsoever. Before even reaching the Hart household.

I do not even think any psychology background is needed to truly understand this.

Smh

The only people who seemed to think that were Jen and Sarah. Or they thought their special lifestyle would cure them.

Everyone else understands what a humongous task it was going to be. Which is why those children rarely find homes.

 

[Starkville]

I typed out a comment earlier and then in the middle of my typing - POOF! I'll start over. I felt at the beginning of this case that the Mom's may have started out with good intentions, became overwhelmed, lacked parenting skills and got in to a pattern of abuse UNTIL I read the article about the first foster daughter that I had not previously knew existed. I can't imagine anyone driving a child to a therapy appointment, never saying Good Bye or discussing the fact with the child, but having the therapist tell them they would not be returning to their home to find out later they had removed all of her items while she was in school! This is very cold, unfeeling behavior! This brings me to my next thoughts that I can't imagine a therapist not making a record of this to CPS and someone stopping the fostering of the three children arriving from Texas until the situation was investigated. I feel they demonstrated severe emotional abuse on the first foster daughter!

Right? What the hell kind of therapist agreed to THAT?

Unless Jen told some lie about the girl being dangerous or something.

 

[Zelda1010]

Has anyone run across a notification of a press confrence? I would think that one would be given frequently.

The Mendocino County Sheriff was posting daily "updates" but yesterday's said they would stop & only update as needed.

http://news.mendocinosheriff.com/archives.php

https://us12.campaign-archive.com/?u=d58e8d47c32727a999b3dde01&id=db54309c74

DATE: "April 12, 2018"

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

Incident Number:
2018-8630

Crime/Incident:
Coroner's Investigation, Continuing Search and Rescue Efforts


Location:
California State Highway 1 at Mendocino County Road 430, Westport CA 95448

Date of Incident:
03-26-2018

Time:
3:38 PM

Victim(s):
Confirmed Deceased:

Jennifer Jean Hart, 38 years of age, Woodland, Washington
Sarah Margaret Hart, 38 years of age, Woodland Washington
Markis Hart, 19 years of age, Woodland Washington
Jeremiah Hart, 14 years of age, Woodland Washington
Abigail Hart, 14 years of age, Woodland Washington

Missing Persons:

Devonte Hart, 15 years of age, Woodland Washington
Hannah Hart, 16 years of age, Woodland Washington
Sierra Hart, 15 years of age, Woodland Washington


Suspect(s):
N/A

Written By:
Captain Gregory L. Van Patten #1184

Synopsis:
ORIGINAL PRESS RELEASE:

On 3/26/2018 around 4:16 PM the Mendocino County Sheriff's Office was dispatched the area of Highway 1 at County Road 430, also called Juan Creek, in Westport regarding a traffic accident involving multiple fatalities. The incident had been reported to fire officials and the California Highway Patrol around 3:38 PM, after a passerby used a pullout along the road and observed the vehicle off the embankment, upside down on the rocky shoreline.

While the Sheriff's Office was enroute to the call it was learned there were possibly two adult females, two juvenile males, and one juvenile female deceased at the scene. The Sheriff's Office initiated a Coroner's Investigation. First responders continued recovery efforts until well after midnight. On 3/27/2018 around 0800 hours the Mendocino County Sheriff's Office confirmed the identity of the two adult females as Jennifer and Sarah Hart, a married couple who had previously resided in West Linn Oregon. It was later learned the decedent's had 6 adopted children.

After learning of three additional children who were unaccounted for, the Sheriff's Office, the California Highway Patrol, and the United States Coast Guard out of Fort Bragg CA immediately initiated a second search and rescue effort in the Ocean waters where the accident occurred. The California Highway patrol launched a fixed wing airplane and a helicopter, the Coast Guard launched a rescue boat in the area, while the Mendocino County Sheriff's Search and Rescue responded to search the beach areas along the Highway.

One of the unaccounted for children was Devonte Hart, who drew wide media attention in 2014, after having been photographed hugging a Portland Oregon Police Sergeant during a demonstration related to the events related to the unrest in Ferguson Missouri. The Sheriff's Office reached out to the Portland Oregon Police Department and learned the family, due to intense media coverage, may have moved from Oregon. The family was tracked to a Woodland Washington address where, with assistance from the Clark County Washington Sheriff's Office, the family home was checked and the three outstanding children were not located. The Mendocino County Sheriff's Office was advised by the Clark County Sheriff's Office it appeared the family may have left for a temporary trip as there were many family belongings still in the home as well as a pet and some chickens.

On 3/28/2018 the three younger decedent's have been positively identified with the help of family members. They are Markis Hart 19 years of age, Jeremiah Hart 14 years of age, and Abigail Hart 14 years of age. The three children who are still missing are Devonte Hart 15 years of age, Hannah Hart 16 years of age, and Sierra Hart 12 years of age. At this time it is unknown if the missing children accompanied their parents on the trip to Mendocino County or if they might be staying with friends.

<snip>
UPDATED PRESS RELEASE 04-12-2018:

The shoreline searches conducted on 04-11-2018 by patrol deputies were unsuccessful in locating any of the missing children (Hannah Hart, DeVonte Hart and Sierra Hart) or physical evidence associated with this investigation.

Searches of the Mendocino County coastline will continue with on-duty patrol deputies as calls for service allow. Mendocino County Search & Rescue divers are preparing to be deployed to the area of the crash site once ocean conditions improve for safety reasons. It is anticipated that ocean conditions will not improve for several days.

Future press releases will only be disseminated when significant developments occur or when large scale Search & Rescue Operations are scheduled. The daily press release will be discontinued after today.

Ongoing updates/photos will also be posted on the Mendocino County Sheriff's Office facebook page as information becomes available (https://www.facebook.com/MendocinoSheriff).

 

[human]

The very last thing the two adult Harts tried to do was to raise up children to be healthy, happy, independent human individuals. The silencing and ultimate extinguishing of these six vibrant, potential-filled youngsters breaks my heart, and the betrayal they suffered from the legal and child welfare system, which never bothered to listen to them or to assess their inability to thrive in an adoptive placement, absolutely enrages me. Alarms were sounded, repeatedly, but no agency bothered to look beyond the glib words of the ‘saviors’ to whom these youngsters were entrusted, and investigate what their ‘salvation’ consisted of, exactly.

Not one article I have read about the Harts even mentions any of the six children’s individual personalities, achievements, or interests. The only child we have learned anything at all about is Devonte, the family’s golden child, apparently chosen by his moms to be the family’s designated ‘star’ – and we know something of the individual he was not because of the famously staged photo op he was subject to, but through his genuinely heroic efforts to find help and food for himself and his siblings. This family was all about its adult members and their carefully curated public image, an image maintained through the performance skills of their harshly trained troupe of coerced young actors.

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/...eir-siblings-it-affects-them-for-life/543975/

 

[Starkville]

I agree - they were shopping and had something specific in mind from the start. I don't know what, but it's like they wanted their own little church with their own obedient followers.

It's so twisted I can't even wrap my head around it. Imagine collecting children for a project like this. Who did they think they were??

Just my opinion, but I think they thought they could cure The Unfortunates with their special blend of strict discipline, fresh air and special diet. They were conducting a sociological experiment. MOO, JMO

 

[katydid23]

Can you confirm the crack in their blood stream with a link? I may have missed that line.

If you closely read my posts I'm speaking of the influence and power that the Hart women accessed. I think we've made our views clear. Let's remember that the heart of the matter is that the Hart women murdered their children (with two yet to be recovered). Whether they were born with crack in their system is not what killed them.


IMO

I have read your posts closely. I was responding to this one specifically:

Originally Posted by Sleuth99 :
Just because there are Black professionals (or other non/white people ) involved doesn't mean racism is absent. Black people (or other non/white people ) can help uphold the affects and institutionalized power of racism against black people (or other non/white people ) too.



It seems to me that you are saying that the black social workers and adoption workers were upholding racist actions against the birth family by following through on this adoption procedure.

And I disagree with that position.

Of course, the ending was horrific and tragic and should never have happened. But that still does not mean that they should have been left in their original home, given what they knew at the time.



ETA:

According to the appeals court opinion, the children's biological mother had three older children, one of whom had several bone fractures before being removed from his mother's care, who were born before the four trying to be adopted by the aunt. Of the second group, one sibling, Jeremiah, tested positive for cocaine when he was born in 2004, leading to family and protective services becoming involved with the family again, the appeals opinion said.

After the mother tested positive for cocaine when her seventh child was born in 2006, the state agency took custody of her four remaining children, and her parental rights were terminated.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/hart_children_should_be_remove.html

 

[sleuther317]

There is absolutely no proof (yet) that these women intentionally drove off that cliff. Could Jen have had a stroke? Could she have had a heart attack? Lost consciousness? Fell asleep? We have no idea. All LE has said is that drugs and alcohol were not a factor.

We have zero facts because no one is alive to tell us. The only person speaking out has said she was not starved or abused during the time she was in their care. I am hesitant to label them as evil abusers who were racist and starved these kids. Yes, it has been 5 years and they should've had HH's front teeth fixed but my daughters implants were $12,000 each for two lateral incisors plus a $6000 bill for braces on otherwise perfectly straight teeth. Sometimes a $30,000 orthodontic bill is not feasible as I sure as heck don't believe that people don't love their kids just because they cannot afford to get them braces. That is just ridiculous and hurtful.

On another note, I would bet money that if I made my kids eat "crunchy" foods or foods they didn't prefer and a neighbor was willing to sneak them chips and beef jerky, my kids would be over there every day saying we didn't have any food in the house. None of those 6 kids look "starved" to me as we saw with the Turpin children. My 14 year old is 90 pounds soaking wet and eats us out of house and home. Even sneaks downstairs at 2am to binge eat. She would probably tell you we withhold food from her since we only let her take 3 snack items with her sandwhich for lunch instead of 20 like she trys to take. And my first thought when I see the pictures of those precious kids is that they look happy and healthy in every single one.

I know my opinions won't be popular but I think too many people are jumping to conclusions too quickly without many facts.

 

[Whiteorchids]

My apologies if this has already been posted.


http://katu.com/news/local/punishme...-family-friend-seeks-change-to-honor-children


n a statement released to KATU, Alexandra Argyropoulos says she reported the Harts to child welfare in 2013 after witnessing what she calls “unnecessarily cruel” punishments. At the time, the family lived in West Linn, Ore.
“The kids were regularly punished for common childlike and adolescent behavior, such as laughing too loudly or taking a small piece of food that was offered without permission from Jen. Her reactions were overblown, and the punishments seemed unnecessarily cruel,” Argyropoulos said.
She says the Hart family stayed with her for two weeks. That's when she realized Jen was not the loving mother she pretended to be. Instead, she says the family was run “like a regimented boot camp, where true kindness, love, and respect for the children was largely absent.”
Argyropoulos says on top of taking food away as a form of punishment, sometimes for a full day, Jen would also make them stand in a corner staring at a wall for extended period of times. She says usually these punishments were for small "misbehaviors."
After spending two weeks with the family, Argyropoulos says she confronted Jen and Sarah about the punishments. She says she even expressed concerns about the kids getting enough to eat even when they weren’t being "punished." After doing so, she says Jen and Sarah broke off contact.
That’s when she says she turned to Oregon’s Human Protective Services in 2013.
“I was later told that the children had been interviewed by Oregon Child Protective Services, and it was apparent that each child had been coached by their mothers on what to say, but there was nothing more CPS could do because there was not enough evidence to make a case,” Argyropoulos said.

 

[Starkville]

I think what is under question is if the kids were really *so* damaged, why on earth would the women not reach out for any and all help available. Not even within their own festival social circle. Therapy, support groups, ANYTHING.

Honestly, I think they were thinking that their special diet and wholesome activity would “cure” them.

I think nutrition and activity and time spent in nature is 100% beneficial for all kinds of behaviors, but it’s not all the kids needed. And they made some terrible terrible miscalculations (and abused them!).

 

[Gardenista]

There is absolutely no proof (yet) that these women intentionally drove off that cliff. Could Jen have had a stroke? Could she have had a heart attack? Lost consciousness? Fell asleep? We have no idea. All LE has said is that drugs and alcohol were not a factor.

We have zero facts because no one is alive to tell us. The only person speaking out has said she was not starved or abused during the time she was in their care. I am hesitant to label them as evil abusers who were racist and starved these kids. Yes, it has been 5 years and they should've had HH's front teeth fixed but my daughters implants were $12,000 each for two lateral incisors plus a $6000 bill for braces on otherwise perfectly straight teeth. Sometimes a $30,000 orthodontic bill is not feasible as I sure as heck don't believe that people don't love their kids just because they cannot afford to get them braces. That is just ridiculous and hurtful.

On another note, I would bet money that if I made my kids eat "crunchy" foods or foods they didn't prefer and a neighbor was willing to sneak them chips and beef jerky, my kids would be over there every day saying we didn't have any food in the house. None of those 6 kids look "starved" to me as we saw with the Turpin children. My 14 year old is 90 pounds soaking wet and eats us out of house and home. Even sneaks downstairs at 2am to binge eat. She would probably tell you we withhold food from her since we only let her take 3 snack items with her sandwhich for lunch instead of 20 like she trys to take. And my first thought when I see the pictures of those precious kids is that they look happy and healthy in every single one.

I know my opinions won't be popular but I think too many people are jumping to conclusions too quickly without many facts.

“The kids were regularly punished for common childlike and adolescent behavior, such as laughing too loudly or taking a small piece of food that was offered without permission from Jen. Her reactions were overblown, and the punishments seemed unnecessarily cruel,” Argyropoulos said.

She says the Hart family stayed with her for two weeks. That's when she realized Jen was not the loving mother she pretended to be. Instead, she says the family was run “like a regimented boot camp, where true kindness, love, and respect for the children was largely absent.”

Argyropoulos says on top of taking food away as a form of punishment, sometimes for a full day, Jen would also make them stand in a corner staring at a wall for extended period of times. She says usually these punishments were for small "misbehaviors."

After spending two weeks with the family, Argyropoulos says she confronted Jen and Sarah about the punishments. She says she even expressed concerns about the kids getting enough to eat even when they weren’t being "punished." After doing so, she says Jen and Sarah broke off contact.

http://katu.com/news/local/punishme...-family-friend-seeks-change-to-honor-children

 

[human]

More on the petition started by a 'former' family friend calling for a National Child Abuse Registry that allows state agencies immediate access to prior reports of abuse.
http://katu.com/news/local/punishme...-family-friend-seeks-change-to-honor-children
Earlier coverage from AP of the same lady's account and what she described as 'unnecessarily cruel punishment she witnessed while living with the family for two weeks in 2013 (She reported it back then) : http://katu.com/news/local/woman-says-she-reported-cruel-treatment-by-jennifer-and-sarah-hart

Reading what they did in front of someone bliws my mind. Both went to college and were in education. Putting children in the corner has been an outdated idea for decades. I cannot understand how they could imagine this is an approrpiate action.

And depriving food. Who does that? It boggles my mind that they would feel proud enough of their methods that they would demonstrate them to pretty much a stranger.