CA - Hannah,16,Devonte,15,&Ciera Hart,12 (fnd deceased),Mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #6

[gitana1]

I just wanted to chime in with the WTH was wrong with Jen (and/or Sarah) conversation. NPD and BPD are thrown around a lot and both seem fitting to some degree, but Histrionic is an intriguing possibility in this case, to me.

For anyone unfamiliar with Histrionic Personality, here are the criteria. This article is comparing Histrionic to Borderline, but I've seen it compared with narcissism too.



HPD is one of 10 personality disorders recognized in the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5). HPD is one of the Cluster B disorders, which are characterized as dramatic, overly emotional, and/or erratic.

The DSM-5 defines histrionic personality disorder as a pattern of extreme emotionality and attention seeking behavior that begins by early adulthood and is obvious in different situations. In addition, you must have five or more of the following signs or symptoms to be diagnosed with HPD:

Discomfort in situations in which you're not the center of attention

Interaction with others that's often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior

Rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotion

Consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self

Style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail

Shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion

Is easily influenced by others or by circumstances

Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are
https://www.verywellmind.com/histronic-personality-disorder-425425


And, moo, I believe Sarah probably had her own disfunctional personality going on, maybe from cluster C (OCD or avoidant perhaps), but...

I'm not convinced there wasn't partner abuse in this relationship either. But unless someone who lived in that house is miraculously found alive, I wonder if we'll ever know for sure. I suppose there is plenty of time for more information to come out.

(OT I cannot thank the person who posted the Lundy Bancroft book enough. I can't locate your post right now, or remember the name, but thank you.)

Not being a mental health professional but still wanting to play armchair psychologist, I am interested in this discussion. Are histrionic people dangerous or violent? Vengeful?

Those brutal aspects of her tend to suggest something else.

But in my business I've read a lot of psych eval reports. And it's rare that someone is diagnosed with just one personality disorder. Or should I say, more typically the reports state they show "markers" or characteristics of more than one personality disorder at a time.

This is where I have a sliver of hope. Teenagers, desperate ones, can be very savvy. These kids were well traveled. Maybe they spent time on trips reading maps. Visually knew the local routes of where they lived?

Woodland to Portland is approx 30 miles, Vancouver even less. That's about a half an hour away. There is a desperation in Devonte's runs to the neighbors. Was Jen out that day, erranding, or whatever? Did he know that was his chance to make a run for it with Hannah? And was desperate for CPS to come for the others? Did he leave a note? We are going to the Goonies?

Did he have a plan? Take some cash from the cookie jar? Did he have some festival contacts hidden away? Could they have figured out the walk into Woodland town, catch a bus? Maybe even hitchhike? Maybe slept in the woods the first night?

No authority knew they were missing.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7434131,-122.7298805,10z?gl=us

Jenn taught these children how to navigate crowds at a very young age. Maybe taught Devonte much about navigating people, too. Every account of those who met these children speaks to how well behaved, bright, wise, loving, & talented they were. Tons of accolades.

That's far from the disabled descriptions that Jenn spoke about.

I am sure these kids spoke about their memories of life before being adopted, especially the older ones. But whatever was going on now, for sure Devonte and Hannah were on to it, and knew it was wrong.

So, I hold out hope for that sliver of rebellion that just might turn up these two, someday, having survived.

If the kids presented as older I feel this could be a greater possibility. Hannah looks 7. Those kids would stand out. And they're gorgeous on top of it.

Unless they're being harbored for some unknown reason, I think the odds are low.

And given the publicity of the case, and the death of the parents, why would someone be taking the risk of harboring these kids?

Sigh.

I hope and pray for a miracle. It would be amazing.

 

[PearlClutcher]

I saw that about the clothes. Do you think that means they had the crash that same day/night and it just wasn't spotted till Monday p.m. ?

Yes, I think that they may have crashed that same night and was not spotted until the next day. I also wouldn't be surprised if none of them changed clothes that entire trip. I'm not even sure if they took any bags/suitcases with them on the trip. It looks like they may have left the home in a haste.

 

[human]

Since nothing has washed up, we have no clue. If they took no change of clothes, then the plan was death, I feel.

The kids would not think much about it. Wouldn’t Sarah?

Unless the kids were in such dire condition, and they feared an LE check arriving soon, I would think Sarah would feel some clothes could be quickly packed.

If they travel a lot, I would think each person has a box or pack with toothbrush, comb, undies all set to go The basics and then you add whatever extras.

It seems like they would be organized.

I think LE indicated nothing seemed out of place in the home, so it must have been kept neat even if Jen was descending into some kind of huge depression.

Since they travelled so often, it would seem prudent to be prepared without the stress of packing.

But how would I know.

 

[Zelda1010]

Not being a mental health professional but still wanting to play armchair psychologist, I am interested in this discussion. Are histrionic people dangerous or violent? Vengeful?

Those brutal aspects of her tend to suggest something else.

But in my business I've read a lot of psych eval reports. And it's rare that someone is diagnosed with just one personality disorder. Or should I say, more typically the reports state they show "markers" or characteristics of more than one personality disorder at a time.



If the kids presented as older I feel this could be a greater possibility. Hannah looks 7. Those kids would stand out. And they're gorgeous on top of it.

Unless they're being harbored for some unknown reason, I think the odds are low.

And given the publicity of the case, and the death of the parents, why would someone be taking the risk of harboring these kids?

Sigh.

I hope and pray for a miracle. It would be amazing.

Armchair psychologist, I like it.

I think you are right, vengeful dangerous and violent probably not typical for histrionic type but suicidal maybe. And she could be abusive and have a histrionic type of personality, I believe. Abusers don't have a monopoly on one personality type or even disorder, imho.


Consider this. Sarah being "the man" and Jen being "the woman" in the scenario, perhaps.
http://antrodichirone.com/index.php...ty-disorders-a-delicate-relationship-balance/
Solomon noticed that, even if only one of the partners suffers from a personality disorder, the other will show opposite personality tendencies. So the partner who has not a disorder still shows characteristics that complement the other person with rigid and disturbed personality. As we can imagine, this will probably amplify – not reduce – the pathological characteristics of the partner who has the personality disorder (as can be seen in sadomasochistic dyads, in which each role reinforces the other).

Concerning the OCD-histrionic disorder dyad, Kaslow explains that is likely for a histrionic woman to be attracted by a perfectionist partner with OCD, because she feels the need to be more stable, while he is probably attracted by her eagerness to care.

Carlson talks about a “private pact”, which can be summarized as: “I can’t do it alone in life, but if I find someone who makes up for my failings, maybe we can function together as a complete and adequate person”. According to the author, a histrionic woman, who is frequently at the mercy of her emotional shifts, looks for a man who has a clear, logical thinking and strong coping abilities. At the same time, the obsessive man is attracted by her generosity, her capability to just let go and have fun (which this man finds hard because he is too focused on his sense of duty).
However, this match doesn’t last long. After a while, one of the partners will feel threatened and will become defensive; the partner’s once fascinating qualities will be seen negatively. The histrionic woman won’t see him anymore as stable, trustworthy and organized, but as weak, cowardly, domineering and inflexible. The obsessive man won’t see her anymore as a free spirit, but as a frivolous, carefree and reckless spendthrift. Trust begins to shake. She wants him to show emotional reactions, so she will try to provoke him, but showing affection is not natural for an obsessive man. Consequently, she will assume he doesn’t care about her and she will experience feelings of failure and abandonment. She could attack him verbally, cheat on him or even try to commit suicide. His reactions to this climax will probably be passive-aggressive: he will shut down emotionally, while feeling an inexpressible anger at the same time. He will start to feel unloved too, believing his partner only stays in the relationship because of his money or because she is afraid to leave him.

This description by Sperry and Maniacci (1998) is incredibly reminding of the movie “Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind” (2004). She is affectionate, exuberant and impulsive, while he is inhibited, rigid and hermetic. After the initial idyll, an escalation of misunderstandings, fractures, revenge and recrimination happens. As predicted by the aforementioned Kaswlow, the two will look for each other again, despite the pain and the disappointments, because the other is a desirable and irresistible magnetic pole, capable of completing their neuroses.
http://antrodichirone.com/index.php...ty-disorders-a-delicate-relationship-balance/

 

[Sleuth99]

I really couldn't delete any of these. The ones I didn't feel need further explanation are easily dismissed as "well, everyone is like that on FB and that's all we really have to go on" but being Histrionic doesn't always lead to the chaos we tend to see with NPD or BPD, from what I'm learning about it.

Plus, it is complicated and that's why we aren't supposed to diagnose anyone since there are so many factors to consider.

Clearly, imo, something was toxic in that home and it could just be an abuse problem, no PD or mental illness necessary, too.

But, here are my totally self educated opinions, since you asked.

Discomfort in situations in which you're not the center of attention [certainly she is comfortable at the center of her story in her own way...the foster girl's football...]

Interaction with others that's often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior
[the mannequins?]

Rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotion [I have no way of knowing this one, I guess]

Consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self [I feel she favors thin shots of herself and uses the kids as her proxy using them physically to draw attention to herself]

Style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail [Every FB post]

Shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion[bday video]

Is easily influenced by others or by circumstances [possibly the relationship with Sarah, her "roommate" at first, then the adoption, the festival crowd, the BLM/political scene after that, it resulted in increased isolation as she sought out a new group to follow, possibly, imo...she might've just been easily influenced by Google & the internet in general if that makes sense]

Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are[other people certainly did consider her a close friend so I'm assuming she reciprocates that feeling for at least awhile, until she feels her facade can't hold up and she has to run again]

I understand your thinking but for me I would need more instances to support each attributed trait/characteristic. If it is the case, I think more examples will come out sooner or later.



IMO

 

[Breamworthy]

Yea, I can't say for sure either but it would make sense if she was the oldest... to be the one to ride in a bike alongside the car.

The article mentioned her riding her bike alongside a toy wagon that her dad used to pull the other children around the neighborhood on walks. Nothing to do with a car. She sat in the wagon with her brother, then when there was a third child and she was old enough, she rode her bike and the two boys, presumably younger, sat in the wagon.

 

[Sleuth99]

The article mentioned her riding her bike alongside a toy wagon that her dad used to pull the other children around the neighborhood on walks. Nothing to do with a car. She sat in the wagon with her brother, then when there was a third child and she was old enough, she rode her bike and the two boys, presumably younger, sat in the wagon.

Good catch. I was thinking station wagon 🤷🏾*♀️ now I'm definitely thinking she was the oldest.


IMO

 

[PearlClutcher]

Good catch. I was thinking station wagon ����*♀️ now I'm definitely thinking she was the oldest.


IMO

Stationwagon never crossed my mind. I was thinking a child's wagon. Maybe because that was my favorite toy as a kid. I suppose that's one reason you can't always assume everyone has the same reference points.

 

[staunchcharacter]

IMO JH and SH did not seek any medical or dental treatment for the kids because there was a very good chance the abuse and neglect would be exposed. The doctors would question the parents, etc.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

There is a photo floating around with Devonte using an inhaler so they obviously sought out some medical care.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I am searching for the MSM source but Beloved festival is apparently put on by two former (current?) Rajneeshis.

Mea culpa. The only msm reference I could find to an Osho connection to the Beloved Festival is that two of the performers Deva Premal and Miten had been Rajneesh followers. That's it. So, nada known connection. I apologize. Especially since some rabid extremists are posting it as truth on Twitter.

 

[bluesneakers]

There is a photo floating around with Devonte using an inhaler so they obviously sought out some medical care.


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The inhaler was a prop for the Goonies festival. A lot of people were posing with them.

 

[Shiressleuth]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-hart-family-timeline-20180404-story.html

Since nothing has washed up, we have no clue. If they took no change of clothes, then the plan was death, I feel.

The kids would not think much about it. Wouldn’t Sarah?

Unless the kids were in such dire condition, and they feared an LE check arriving soon, I would think Sarah would feel some clothes could be quickly packed.

If they travel a lot, I would think each person has a box or pack with toothbrush, comb, undies all set to go The basics and then you add whatever extras.

It seems like they would be organized.

I think LE indicated nothing seemed out of place in the home, so it must have been kept neat even if Jen was descending into some kind of huge depression.

Since they travelled so often, it would seem prudent to be prepared without the stress of packing.

But how would I know.

I have seen a report where some clothes were retrieved from the sea.

Eta Link above.

 

[Jax49]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-hart-family-timeline-20180404-story.html



I have seen a report where some clothes were retrieved from the sea.

Eta Link above.

Divers also investigated a report of clothes in the ocean.

Did they actually find clothes?

 

[human]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-hart-family-timeline-20180404-story.html
I have seen a report where some clothes were retrieved from the sea.

Eta Link above.

I don’t think that is what the article is saying

 

[janewall]

I don't think it's ever been said the neighbours actually saw any of the family get in the car.

http://www.king5.com/mobile/article...nto-family-prior-to-fatal-crash/283-532961241

After days of this, and other accusations of abuse, Dana DeKalb, called child services. She said a CPS worker came, the Harts refused to answer the door, and hours later, the family was gone.

"The next morning when we saw that the vehicle was gone, and then Sunday morning when it still wasn't there, we figured something was off," said Bruce DeKalb, Dana's husband.


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Exactly. The Harts lived on a two acre lot. Presumably the DeKalbs have a similar plot of land. Their houses are not exactly close to each other, if you look at the aerial pictures posted in some earlier threads.

And in mid-March, in Washington state, it would have been getting dark. So I doubt the DeKalbs were counting heads when the exodus next door was going on. They probably just heard some hustle and bustle, saw headlights, maybe heard the driveway wall get bumped as the driver tore out of there, and assumed it was the entire family because they had no reason not to.

I feel that sometimes in this case we get overly hung up on one or two words that have been recounted casually, or paraphrased, in a media interview not a formal LE deposition.

MOO, as always.

 

[staunchcharacter]

The inhaler was a prop for the Goonies festival. A lot of people were posing with them.

Oh. I never saw the movie! I didn’t know that lol Thanks!


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[Shiressleuth]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-hart-family-timeline-20180404-story.html



I have seen a report where some clothes were retrieved from the sea.

Eta Link above.

Did they actually find clothes?

I don’t think that is what the article is saying

I take "Divers investigated reports of clothes in the ocean" to mean they found clothes in the ocean which is why I said it.
Otherwise it would say "but found nothing".

But you can interpret it how you wish of course - I am merely bringing it up.

:cow: :moo:

 

[Jax49]

I take "Divers investigated reports of clothes in the ocean" to mean they found clothes in the ocean which is why I said it.
Otherwise it would say "but found nothing".

But you can interpret it how you wish of course - I am merely bringing it up.

:cow: :moo:

Here's an update from the next day.

[FONT=&quot]Allman also said a person reported spotting something bobbing in the water that looked like clothing about 30 to 40 miles south of the crash site, but divers who searched the area found nothing.[/FONT]

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2018/04/sheriff_backtracks_now_says_ne.html

bbm

 

[gitana1]

Armchair psychologist, I like it.

I think you are right, vengeful dangerous and violent probably not typical for histrionic type but suicidal maybe. And she could be abusive and have a histrionic type of personality, I believe. Abusers don't have a monopoly on one personality type or even disorder, imho.


Consider this. Sarah being "the man" and Jen being "the woman" in the scenario, perhaps.
http://antrodichirone.com/index.php...ty-disorders-a-delicate-relationship-balance/
Solomon noticed that, even if only one of the partners suffers from a personality disorder, the other will show opposite personality tendencies. So the partner who has not a disorder still shows characteristics that complement the other person with rigid and disturbed personality. As we can imagine, this will probably amplify – not reduce – the pathological characteristics of the partner who has the personality disorder (as can be seen in sadomasochistic dyads, in which each role reinforces the other).

Concerning the OCD-histrionic disorder dyad, Kaslow explains that is likely for a histrionic woman to be attracted by a perfectionist partner with OCD, because she feels the need to be more stable, while he is probably attracted by her eagerness to care.

Carlson talks about a “private pact”, which can be summarized as: “I can’t do it alone in life, but if I find someone who makes up for my failings, maybe we can function together as a complete and adequate person”. According to the author, a histrionic woman, who is frequently at the mercy of her emotional shifts, looks for a man who has a clear, logical thinking and strong coping abilities. At the same time, the obsessive man is attracted by her generosity, her capability to just let go and have fun (which this man finds hard because he is too focused on his sense of duty).
However, this match doesn’t last long. After a while, one of the partners will feel threatened and will become defensive; the partner’s once fascinating qualities will be seen negatively. The histrionic woman won’t see him anymore as stable, trustworthy and organized, but as weak, cowardly, domineering and inflexible. The obsessive man won’t see her anymore as a free spirit, but as a frivolous, carefree and reckless spendthrift. Trust begins to shake. She wants him to show emotional reactions, so she will try to provoke him, but showing affection is not natural for an obsessive man. Consequently, she will assume he doesn’t care about her and she will experience feelings of failure and abandonment. She could attack him verbally, cheat on him or even try to commit suicide. His reactions to this climax will probably be passive-aggressive: he will shut down emotionally, while feeling an inexpressible anger at the same time. He will start to feel unloved too, believing his partner only stays in the relationship because of his money or because she is afraid to leave him.

This description by Sperry and Maniacci (1998) is incredibly reminding of the movie “Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind” (2004). She is affectionate, exuberant and impulsive, while he is inhibited, rigid and hermetic. After the initial idyll, an escalation of misunderstandings, fractures, revenge and recrimination happens. As predicted by the aforementioned Kaswlow, the two will look for each other again, despite the pain and the disappointments, because the other is a desirable and irresistible magnetic pole, capable of completing their neuroses.
http://antrodichirone.com/index.php...ty-disorders-a-delicate-relationship-balance/

I'm thinking of her cutting off of the mannequin nipples, her complete estrangement form her father, her chastising and accusatory Facebook post when she explained why she had to drop out, her rage at a child for having a penny, her overall control and anger at her kids for normal childish behavior, etc. To me that indicates something like borderline or narcissistic.

But she certainly seems to have characteristics of someone who is histrionic. Probably a lot of different stuff was going on with her.

 

[waschbaer]

Most people who are officially diagnosed with any of the Cluster B disorders (as they were categorized in DSM-IV-- Antisocial, Borderline, Histrionic, and Narcissistic) have traits from other of the disorders in the same cluster. So someone whose predominate type is NPD may also have a lot of borderline traits, for instance. There was relatively low inter-rater reliability between those disorders too, which means that if they saw Psychologist A they could walk out diagnosed HPD but if they saw Psychologist B they might walk out diagnosed NPD instead.