Deceased/Not Found Ca - Hannah,16 (fnd dec), Devonte,15, (dec nf) Ciera Hart,12 (fnd dec),mendocino Cty,26 Mar 2018 #7

[Kajol85]

No one questioned their crack baby story...they got to play the “white savior” card and they manipulated everyone around them.

I know this is on the topic of race and it will be deleted which is fine...I'm just curious though and I've really been wondering in earnest about this. I didn't adopt children to save them I adopted them to be a mother, my children happen to be black. So what is being said about black, Latino, Asian families adopting children from the same circumstance?

I think you'd perhaps might like to do some reading on the historical and current practices of child removal from black and indigenous folks. "The New Jim Crow"by Michelle Alexander is wonderful to understand how systemic racism is still in operation today and works to prop up white supremacy.
Racism is privilege+ power. The system is designed to keep white folks at the top. It is not so for POC, so the comparison to Latino, Black or Asian adoptive parents is a false equivalency.
It's interesting you keep making the comments about the Hart situation personal, you are not them, so I would perhaps take an ear and listen to to what POC have to say around transracial adoptions and not jump to defensiveness.

 

[SATA]

Oregon Live keeps updating their gallery of pictures related to this case.

Here are a few pictures of Sierra with her biological father and paternal aunt. An earlier article on the legal efforts the aunt went through to keep the kids said that she had custody for 6 1/2 months ending in December 2006.

Sierra was born in April 2006. In December 2006, she would have been 8 months old. I think she looks older than that in this picture,which would suggest that the family was still visiting with the children when they were in foster care.

Any Texans here? If so, would you normally be dressing your baby in a sleeveless dress in December?

Probably taken at Christmas - and yeah, sleeveless is fine for Christmas.
What a beautiful baby girl.
So sad she was tortured and robbed of her life along with her siblings by two evil women.

WHY were they so evil? How COULD they torture those sweet kids?
I can´t get over it.
I see that most here cannot, and express hatred towards Jen and Sarah.
I wish I could tell them to their faces how much I hate and despise them, but they took the cowardly way out.

 

[Kajol85]

Right, because you removed "White" from it. I think you example which is laced with descriptions of race supports what others are saying. Internalized racism allows for such examples. But I am more curious as to why Hannah called the Hart women racist to the Dekalbs. There had to be something(s) that propelled Hannah to make that distinction and I don't think it was just because Jen and Hart were different races. They had to have said things/do things that were overtly racist.


IMO

They were absolutely overtly racist. Their kids were treated as objects to parade about when it suited them, and otherwise were only allowed to speak, laugh, eat, move freely with permission from Jen and Sarah. They were also whipped with belts, as told by Hannah, which absolutely makes me think of slavery. The brutal way in which Hannah was treated, the withholding of food. The absolute control of all the children. The disgusting way she spoke of their past, the way they were forced to sing " we are so provided for"

Those kids were there to serve and manage the adult feelings in the household. Especially Devonte, made to perform to soothe Jen and her feelings, even when writing about him it was always about her.

 

[Sleuth99]

They were absolutely overtly racist. Their kids were treated as objects to parade about when it suited them, and otherwise were only allowed to speak, laugh, eat, move freely with permission from Jen and Sarah. They were also whipped with belts, as told by Hannah, which absolutely makes me think of slavery. The brutal way in which Hannah was treated, the withholding of food. The absolute control of all the children. The disgusting way she spoke of their past, the way they were forced to sing " we are so provided for"

Those kids were there to serve and manage the adult feelings in the household. Especially Devonte, made to perform to soothe Jen and her feelings, even when writing about him it was always about her.

I don't disagree with the categorization, but I'm saying from Hannah's point of view. I wonder what made her make that connection.


IMO

 

[gitana1]

I have strongly suspected from the beginning that the Hart parents (Jen/Sarah) were highly influenced by the media attention the Turpin family received, namely the parents. As that started playing out and more truth came to light, the Hart parents likely recognized themselves in the Turpin parents. They may have realized the court of public opinion, the legal system, the media, etc. would convict them and harshly punish them. I don't think they could stand the pressure, or the thought of their "perfect family image" that they presented to the public, would be severely tarnished once the truth emerged. The very real possibility of prison time had to factor into their decision to end it all with the entire family. In their minds, a tragic "accident" involving the entire family was more "honorable death." Also, if the humans were medicated, the animals were probably medicated too.

Yes. This has been my feeling all along. They felt an "accident" would be better than the truth. Gosh how I wish they knew the truth has been revealed and we all know what despicable creatures they were.

I know we are not supposed to talk about race, however in this case it’s extremely important. The Hart’s took advantage of their peer’s racial biases and prejudice. No one questioned their crack baby story...they got to play the “white savior” card and they manipulated everyone around them.
I believe the bio family tried the best they could, and it’s clear they loved the children. I believe social services failed their mother as well as the children. If you do the math, their mother was just a young teen in the 80’s when she had her first involvement with CPS. Heartbreaking story all around. Those children are gorgeous and would have had bright futures 

100% agree. I understand that dilemma of the mods though. It can get bad on the boards. But there are a few very excellent articles out there about the subject as it pertains to the Harts. Fairly easy to find if you use the right words. And very thought provoking.

I think about all the chances those women got despite the evidence. But how the kids got almost none. Saddled with bias. And how Devonte, Jeremiah and Ciera's aunt or grandma, can't remember which, had those babies yanked forever from her home for one mistake- of allowing their mom to come over.

In the meantime, the Harts battered their kids, starved them, emotionally abused them, went through a criminal case, and there's no evidence the kids were removed from their custody of even one day?

Sigh.

Are there sharks in that area?

If so, then those 2 missing children may never be found, if they might also be digesting in shark bellies?

Somehow.. I guess because I am an animal lover.. I was 'imagining' that the person(s) doing this mass killing may have wanted to allow their animals to live the rest of their lives, as they were uninvolved in the whole mess. Wishful thinking, I guess. And surely if the couple had dropped the pets off at a friend's ahead of the event, those friends would have spoken up. jmo.

Yeah we have a lot of sharks off the coast. Here's 2017:

https://www.ocregister.com/2018/01/...hat-happened-in-2017-along-the-pacific-coast/

 

[AlwaysHopeToHelp]

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You are wonderful! Thanks for helping!


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[SATA]

From the linked article:

In a 2014 study of child abuse so severe that it could be termed torture, researcher Barbara Knox of the University of Wisconsin found that 47% of the school-aged victims she studied had been removed from school to be homeschooled. “This ‘homeschooling’ appears to have been designed to further isolate the child and typically occurred after closure of a previously opened CPS case,” Knox wrote. The abuse typically intensified after homeschooling began.

BBM

Horrifying.

 

[SATA]

I wonder if OregonLive or the other news sources will stay on LE for more information. Do you believe this is the only thing that might keep an investigation going? It seems odd to me that Devonte and the dogs are missing -- the favorites. And Hannah, who may have been least favorite. Were Devonte and dogs spared? Given a different death? Dogs let go? Too coincidental for me.

The two that sought help are missing.
I find that interesting.

 

[bears10]

Isn’t race off limits on this thread? There are still a lot of “white savior” comments and other race comments being posted frequently.

 

[SATA]

First time posting... but this has been on my mind. Did anyone notice how hard JH high-fived SH at the Bernie Sanders rally? SH reacted then laughed it off with Nusheen B. Happens about a minute in.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/03/bernie_sanders_put_a_bird_on_it.html

I noticed that too. She seems to hit SH rather than high five her.

 

[cotswoldemmie]

As I think has been mentioned before, incidents of ejection from a vehicle in a rollover accident are common when no seatbelts are being worn. The rolling/spinning effect of a vehicle creates a sort of centrifugal effect where everything inside is pushed outwards. If the windows were open prior to impact, bodies would likely be ejected after the first roll, if the windows weren’t open, they would likely have smashed upon the first impact, along with a door or two flying open or being ripped off.
To my mind, the people seated on the outside wouldn’t necessarily fly out first as they would likely be pinned by the people/items coming from the centre of the car.
I’m not sure if anyone has seen/knows whether the children had a designated seating plan but it may explain the manner of how the bodies were recovered/found and the fact that two children are missing. Does anyone have a link/picture?
I do feel that the two missing children were thrown first from the car, further from the car and thus further out into the ocean, thus washing away quicker than the others. The first spin after impact would have been the quickest thus producing the greatest force and throwing bodies further, whereas subsequent spins would have been slowed down by the angle of the cliff & friction, resulting in remaining bodies being found closer to the vehicle.
If the children were asleep/drugged, a relaxed, pliable body will move/eject a lot easier.
If the adults were wearing seatbelts, it does explain why they were not ejected as historically in rollover accidents, the driver and front passenger have a much higher percentage change of being ejected than rear passengers. That said, I would assume that the Yukon would have had at least one front on impact before it started spinning which may well have “wedged” the adults in tighter as they are more enclosed between the dashboard and seats than the passengers in the rear would have been.
I do feel that the FBI are covering all bases by posting missing posters for Devonte & Hannah. Like us, I’m sure they hope that the two are hiding out somewhere. Maybe they have some information that opens it up as a real possibility, I don’t know.
However, I think the reality is that they were in the car and ejected soon after the plunge. Possibly both were already close to death/killed following a punishment fit of rage, again, I don’t know.
Given that SH & JH seem to have been very meticulous & controlling in every aspect of their lives, I feel that they would end this all in one go, as opposed to leaving “loose ends” like bodies in a different location.
I think that the net was starting to close in and their carefully constructed world was unravelling. The neighbours knew there were issues as Hannah had run to them, the children themselves had perhaps started to show a little defiance and subversity and the CPS were once again on their tails. It was all getting to a point where SH & JH could no longer contain the situation.
JMO


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[gitana1]

These are all really good and important points. And, my 50's upbringing is engrained, and not necessarily up to date...

Of course as in all partnerships there are exchanges and balances of energy. Tough parent, soft parent. Dominant, passive. Stereotypes of male, female. Abusive, enabling. This list goes on.

Jen strikes me as the dominant partner, the main aggressor with her children, her aggressive 'my way or the highway' language in some of her postings, her control of the narrative. Sarah took the hit in the abuse conviction, seemed to acquiesce to Jen's need to wanderlust with the kids, Sarah maintained the home-front while they were gone...

Most of us are children of well defined stereotypes, even though those parameters are changing in our modern world.

And, forgive me for not being more clear on this as I have gay married friends some of whom reveal a more traditional structure of roles, and others where the energy is much more nuanced.

So who were Jen and Sarah? When they got married, they might have liked Jen's last name better, simple as that? We read a lot about their crimes as parents but not much about their partnership which was long lasting by so many measures.

We hear they were madly in love in college, forging love in an uncertain acceptance landscape in America, traveling to a state they probably never visited before to commit to marriage.

So, back to energy, the OP pointed out the aggressive high five of Jen to Sarah at the Sanders rally with the sparrow. There are, of course, the wild women at sports games, and the tough women in life, in every male dominated field, that dosen't diminish their womanhood. But also, not every tomboy makes it onto male sports teams. It takes a certain physicality and drive to accomplish that. Imo

As I think about it this morning, it is perhaps the sum total of dominance and passivity that I might be seeing? And that energy has a stereotypical lens.

It could very well be Sarah was the controlling force, the breadwinner, the one who felt she had the power, and Jen's aggression was a replay out of a feeling of oppression?

Dynamics, roles exist in all relationships regardless of sex. Perhaps there is a clue in how Devonte responded to power, both in his knowledge of being the golden child, and in his desperation to be the man, to save his siblings? He was 15 years old. Who was he going up against, what kind of energy was he going up against?

I believe the FBI was brought in to help with profiling because it is just out of the scope of Mendocino county's capabilities.
All jmo

But what is masculine energy and what is feminine energy? I mean all for that is really a social construct that varies across cultures and over time. Think about the perfumed, curly wigged men in tights of the 18th century. Or the senstive men who read poetry and wept in the early 19th. All considered very manly.

And when people see same sex couples assuming "traditional" gender roles in a relationship, isn't that likely more to do with the lens they're viewing it through and their own biases rather than the reality of what's actually happening in the relationship?

People see what they expect to see.

My cousin is very straight, very male. His wife seems to be more of the decision-maker and disciplinarian. They work on different days from one another and my cousin cares for his babies and has since birth, on his own, thee days per week. Is he not manly enough? Or how about my uncle who was the stay at home dad during the day caring for his babies (performing at night), while his wife worked out of the home? What about him?


For a decade I didn't tell my bosses at my first job that I had a spouse. I hid that part of my life from the other major part of my life. In part because I just knew that they would say, "Oh! That explains why she's such a ball buster. Why she's so tough. Why she's so efficient and good at her job." That is kind of devastating to hear. That your characteristics or strength are dependent on who you sleep with.

Ugh. And neither me nor my ex are butch so I recall a couple confused people over the years asking, "Well then who is the man in the relationship?" Because we both have long hair.

The stereotypes of strict gender roles don't typically prove true, in my experience, in most any relationships, gay or straight, nor in most people in general. We are all just humans. Unless we are monsters like these two. But none of their decisions, none of their brutality nor the level of it were based on gender. It was based on dysfunction and evil. Both of which are present in various people in the world regardless of gender, sex or sexuality.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

WOW, you're right. When Abigail described "grounding" to CPS, she told them it meant staying in bed all day and missing lunch. I bet you're right that not even "staying in bed" had its normal meaning in this twisted disciplinary system. It probably meant the same thing it meant in 2013 when they were forced to lie blindfolded in the dark silence for 7 hours at a time.



I got the impression she was asking to try to determine if the child was really 8 months old here, or might have been much older and being visited by bio-family while in foster care.



Keep in mind that regardless of the terms the Hart women used, they never registered as homeschoolers. They were investigated by CPS in every state they lived in, but not one of them did anything to them for failing to register their home school. Why expect stricter laws to be enforced when not even this simplest of laws to protect children was enforced by the state?



Quite simply, Jen was listed on their marriage certificate as the "groom."

I thought the previous poster was referring to this, as well as the general reality that virtually all family annihilators are male ... but mainly the marriage certificate.

 

[SATA]

I always thought it was interesting that Davonte asked for cured meats since he had been raised so long as a vegetarian. Weren’t they raised vegetarian?


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Maybe he was not a vegetarian.

My grandmother was a vegetarian and did not serve meat, but my mother was never a vegetarian. She ate meat when visiting family and friends.

 

[Momoffourboys]

Right, because you removed "White" from it. I think you example which is laced with descriptions of race supports what others are saying. Internalized racism allows for such examples. But I am more curious as to why Hannah called the Hart women racist to the Dekalbs. There had to be something(s) that propelled Hannah to make that distinction and I don't think it was just because Jen and Hart were different races. They had to have said things/do things that were overtly racist.


IMO

I agree. Maybe JH and SH used to bash their bio families. Threw in some racist remarks.

 

[SATA]

I would have to agree. With the tide having risen and then fallen, surely the lightest things in the vehicle would have been amongst the first things to have been washed out of it.


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Ciera and Abigail were smaller than Devonte. Both were recovered.

 

[SATA]

Are there sharks in that area?

If so, then those 2 missing children may never be found, if they might also be digesting in shark bellies?

Somehow.. I guess because I am an animal lover.. I was 'imagining' that the person(s) doing this mass killing may have wanted to allow their animals to live the rest of their lives, as they were uninvolved in the whole mess. Wishful thinking, I guess. And surely if the couple had dropped the pets off at a friend's ahead of the event, those friends would have spoken up. jmo.

I doubt it. They did not care about their other pets. Hens and small chickens left behind.
Were there more pets? Don´t remember.

 

[rosemadderlake]

But what is masculine energy and what is feminine energy? I mean all for that is really a social construct that varies across cultures and over time. Think about the perfumed, curly wigged men in tights of the 18th century. Or the senstive men who read poetry and wept in the early 19th. All considered very manly.

And when people see same sex couples assuming "traditional" gender roles in a relationship, isn't that likely more to do with the lens they're viewing it through and their own biases rather than the reality of what's actually happening in the relationship?

People see what they expect to see.

My cousin is very straight, very male. His wife seems to be more of the decision-maker and disciplinarian. They work on different days from one another and my cousin cares for his babies and has since birth, on his own, thee days per week. Is he not manly enough? Or how about my uncle who was the stay at home dad during the day caring for his babies (performing at night), while his wife worked out of the home? What about him?


For a decade I didn't tell my bosses at my first job that I had a spouse. I hid that part of my life from the other major part of my life. In part because I just knew that they would say, "Oh! That explains why she's such a ball buster. Why she's so tough. Why she's so efficient and good at her job." That is kind of devastating to hear. That your characteristics or strength are dependent on who you sleep with.

Ugh. And neither me nor my ex are butch so I recall a couple confused people over the years asking, "Well then who is the man in the relationship?" Because we both have long hair.

The stereotypes of strict gender roles don't typically prove true, in my experience, in most any relationships, gay or straight, nor in most people in general. We are all just humans. Unless we are monsters like these two. But none of their decisions, none of their brutality nor the level of it were based on gender. It was based on dysfunction and evil. Both of which are present in various people in the world regardless of gender, sex or sexuality.

Oh la la, Bbm: I love it. Damn I love it.

"Both of which are present in various people in the world regardless of gender, sex or sexuality" .

 

[rosemadderlake]

eta: prrrrr...

 

[gcharlie]

My brother was ejected from a pickup truck during a rollover accident. He was about 6 feet tall and weighed around 150 lbs. I'm not going to go look at the accident report again, but memory tells me his body was thrown more than 70 feet from where the vehicle stopped at rest.

If the kids were thrown while the SUV was still in descent, they could have been flung 100 feet or more. IIRC, two of the recovered bodies were found on the rocks, so they were not thrown very far. One was found in the water as the tide was starting to come in again.