Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #21

[DRT]

Pandit yes that was , you were adamant the car went in on the night JC disappeared and was driven from the clubhouse access roads. It seems your correct .

Quote from the article :
"(For the car) to have found its way into the ocean, we concluded that it must have been driven off or rolled off the wall straight into the water where it must have floated momentarily, before being taken out with the motion of the waves, before sinking to the floor of the ocean.
“We were able to arrive at that conclusion because there was no sign of the vehicle at the beach when the regular swimmers arrived at daybreak to undertake their daily exercises.
“That particular night, there were strong winds and rain to the extent that the waves were lapping the retaining the wall of the Cottesloe Surf Club.
“It had to go into the water that night because the next day, the water had subsided, the tide had gone out leaving a wide gap of sand between the edge of the retaining wall and the surf.”

It was really disappointing that some ws members commented that they were sick of the topic, wanted it to stop etc !
And then now you read the news report and its obvious that information was gleaned from the forum.
Previously unreleased information in the article, mentions rear door that couldn't be locked, burswood casino, champagne flutes, waves washing the beach clean & early morning swimmers.

Special thanks to Innerchild and Pandit and all the others who contributed, for putting a lot of time and effort into going over the details..
I hope it helped the cold case review to progress and JC's family, Hopefully they got some answers.

While there was a lot of effort and interesting comments and debates, the car going off the access road was mentioned in a West Australian article 29 January 1997, Car found in Sea but Owner still missing.

"Supt Carey said last week that tests also showed no damage to the car's chassis, indicating it had not
been driven off the rocky groyne.
This meant the car had been driven off the access road."


Thanks meticulously for your efforts as well in regaining interest and the photos you provided.

 

[Pandit]

Thanks DRT. If we'd seen this old piece we may have saved quite a bit of time debating whether the car went over the groyne and how it got onto it traversing sand drifts. Do you have a link please?

While there was a lot of effort and interesting comments and debates, the car going off the access road was mentioned in a West Australian article 29 January 1997, Car found in Sea but Owner still missing.

"Supt Carey said last week that tests also showed no damage to the car's chassis, indicating it had not
been driven off the rocky groyne.
This meant the car had been driven off the access road."


Thanks meticulously for your efforts as well in regaining interest and the photos you provided.

 

[no name]

"For the car to have found its way into the ocean, we concluded that it must have been driven off or rolled off the wall straight into the water.
We were able to arrive at that conclusion because there was no sign of the vehicle at the beach when the regular swimmers arrived at daybreak to undertake their daily exercises.
That particular night, there were strong winds and rain to the extent that the waves were lapping the retaining the wall of the Cottesloe Surf Club.
“It had to go into the water that night because the next day, the water had subsided, the tide had gone out leaving a wide gap of sand between the edge of the retaining wall and the surf.”

Is this supposed to begin "Dear Websleuths"....

Or is that who hes referring to when he says "we" concluded...
WEbsleuths concluded?

Seriously, does anyone find this a little convenient and a little bit odd?
If this was the official police position about the mystery of JC's car upon his retirement in '05, we'd have known this already surely?
Did everyone miss this somehow & if not, why in the hell would WA cops think this kind of detail should be withheld from the public. Im floored if this is legit & not just this guys opinion and whom it appears may possibly familiar with WS.

**anyone having dramas posting? This took me nearly an hour. Booted out 3-4 times???.

 

[no name]

Ok, I see Met sees what I saw and DRT says it appears we all missed it.
Well thank god for that coz if this is all.we can expect after all these years, they may as well all give up now & retrain a whole heap of new people with new methods. Call my cynical (and a little annoyed with the lagging and non responsiveness of the site WTF

 

[Pandit]

To be fair, a few of us didn't think the car went over the groyne when it was just too easy to launch it straight off the wall, could get quite a bit of speed up on that downhill sloping access road and propelled forward, I think the Fiat could have gone quite a way out before sinking to lodge on the sea floor.

I find the language this cop has used to be really interesting though and also hilarious, strongly sensing he might be a dedicated WS lurker

Your work on weather analysis and the ocean patterns over the relevant days was fabulous met, I'm sure it's going to if it hasn't already, prove crucial to this case and possibly others in the future.

Pandit yes that was , you were adamant the car went in on the night JC disappeared and was driven from the clubhouse access roads. It seems your correct .

Quote from the article :
"(For the car) to have found its way into the ocean, we concluded that it must have been driven off or rolled off the wall straight into the water where it must have floated momentarily, before being taken out with the motion of the waves, before sinking to the floor of the ocean.
“We were able to arrive at that conclusion because there was no sign of the vehicle at the beach when the regular swimmers arrived at daybreak to undertake their daily exercises.
“That particular night, there were strong winds and rain to the extent that the waves were lapping the retaining the wall of the Cottesloe Surf Club.
“It had to go into the water that night because the next day, the water had subsided, the tide had gone out leaving a wide gap of sand between the edge of the retaining wall and the surf.”

It was really disappointing that some ws members commented that they were sick of the topic, wanted it to stop etc !
And then now you read the news report and its obvious that information was gleaned from the forum.
Previously unreleased information in the article, mentions rear door that couldn't be locked, burswood casino, champagne flutes, waves washing the beach clean & early morning swimmers.

Special thanks to Innerchild and Pandit and all the others who contributed, for putting a lot of time and effort into going over the details..
I hope it helped the cold case review to progress and JC's family, Hopefully they got some answers.

 

[petedavo.au]

I think at the time of the murders he was psychotic or on drugs. Even though he may have planned where to place the victims he obviously wanted them found easily since they weren’t buried. With regards to why he chose to put CG in a harder place to get to - maybe as long as he stuck to the line theory that was the most important thing to him. Someone in a psychotic or drugged state often have more strength and take chances of being caught. So may not have been difficult to carry a person through scrub in the dark, down a sloap to a place already familiar to him. MOO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think I'd ascribe to the perpetrator of the CAKe any such excuse to claim a psychiatrist defence.
The actions were probably deliberate and planned out, rather than a product of some unplanned instant psychosis episodes.
It might well be that he was let off the chain by precipitating personal relationship events. But stalking, anger, revenge even rage against feeling inadequate or betrayed are not necessarily psychosis.
I wonder if we'll find SS someone nearer to where the object of his anger resided at the time? I wonder if the perpetrator was hunting for a particular target that had frequented that area and he just took the nearest thing when he couldn't find her?
I don't think I'd describe any of these actions as a product of any psychosis that would prevent the perpetrator from differentiating between right and wrong IMO.

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

 

[janwa]

Looking at the WA police photo of the car upside down I'm thinking had the police divers searched the car already and found the champagne flutes, were they smashed (they might have been it doesn't say) How many were there? 2 for a couple having a drink or 5 or 6 that JC was collecting to make up a set. And don't forget the blouse and tights found in the Kebab shop at the time of her disappearance but not handed in to the police for a year. If it was JCs then it should have her DNA on it.

http://www.news.com.au/news/vanishe...g/news-story/1f9da6564bf58fdfb6f6532c5e7b5d2f

 

[meticulously]

While there was a lot of effort and interesting comments and debates, the car going off the access road was mentioned in a West Australian article 29 January 1997, Car found in Sea but Owner still missing.

"Supt Carey said last week that tests also showed no damage to the car's chassis, indicating it had not
been driven off the rocky groyne.
This meant the car had been driven off the access road."


Thanks meticulously for your efforts as well in regaining interest and the photos you provided.

Thanks DRT. If we'd seen this old piece we may have saved quite a bit of time debating whether the car went over the groyne and how it got onto it traversing sand drifts. Do you have a link please?

There were plenty of articles saying that same thing, there was no shortage of reports about where the car went in. The problem was that some contradicted the other. Many things didn't make sense and details were scarce . It took some good sleuthing to create a "most likely" scenario because all the news reports varied so much..
We have more information from this news report now... but still it is baffling .
There are errors too .
What is true and whats false ?

Quote: "After we recovered Julie’s vehicle...we were able to establish that one of the rear doors of her car couldn't be locked,” he said."

Quote: "That particular night, there were strong winds and rain to the extent that the waves were lapping the retaining the wall of the Surf Club."

It wasnt Windy it was "light & variable" That has been reported incorrectly ( in my opinion )
We Cant believe what these reports say..

Quote: “(For the car) to have found its way into the ocean, we concluded that it must have been driven off or rolled off the wall straight into the water where it must have floated momentarily, before being taken out with the motion of the waves, before sinking to the floor of the ocean."

This sounds virtually impossible too [emoji780][emoji121]

 

[MRichards]

It doesnt really matter. The car was put in the water. Julie wasnt in it.
Police suspect murder of someone who was happy with the world.
Police still suspect murder.

Someone has driven the car off the wall into the water with the confidence of a madman driver who runs people off ghe road.

Both police and Roger Cutler hsve the colour of car and potentially a description of the driver.


Julie went to Iona college, one the few girls boarding schools in Perth.

“That particular night, there were strong winds and rain to the extent that the waves were lapping the retaining the wall of the Cottesloe Surf Club.

“(For the car) to have found its way into the ocean, we concluded that it must have been driven off or rolled off the wall straight into the water where it must have floated momentarily, before being taken out with the motion of the waves, before sinking to the floor of the ocean.

 

[MRichards]

Iona a boarding college.

Cottesloe hotels and Claremont with a high percentage of country kids.

Sarahs parents resided in South Perth, Janes in Shenton Park, Ciaras in Mosman Park.

Sarah lived in a South Perth flat, Jane in a Wembley flat, Ciara lived with Mum and Dad in Mosman Park.
Julie lived at her friends Fremantle Flat.

Sarah worked at an engineering survey firm BSD Consulting(*sp).

Jane at the daycare opposite Karrakatta cemetery on Government road where a stonemason found jewellery on the floor of his newly occupied factory and some electrical schemata typical of electrical windings associated with that an electrical engineer.

Ciara worked at a law firm?

Ciara was a lawyer and worked at a law firm in Saint Georges Terrace, Perth.

Ciara and group of her friends left this private function at around 11:00pm and attended the Continental Hotel in Claremont, the same place Jane Rimmer attended the night she was murdered.

The group arrived at around 11:30 pm and after about 20 – 25 minutes, Ciara told her friends she had had enough and was leaving. There is a confirmed sighting of Ciara walking down Bay View Terrace towards Stirling Highway.

https://www.crimestopperswa.com.au/open-cases/ciara-eilish-glennon/

 

[MRichards]

Kerry Turner was killed after leaving Pinnochios nightclub on Murray st, a nightclub named Magnet House, a building built by General Electric telephone company in Perth.
This was the original telephone factory warehouse of Perth.

Her (Kerry Turner) body was found four weeks later by a member of the public in bushland near Canning Dam.

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...der-of-teen-kerry-turner-20160628-gptg4f.html

 

[Innerchild]

There were plenty of articles saying that same thing, there was no shortage of reports about where the car went in. The problem was that some contradicted the other. Many things didn't make sense and details were scarce . It took some good sleuthing to create a "most likely" scenario because all the news reports varied so much..
We have more information from this news report now... but still it is baffling .
There are errors too .
What is true and whats false ?

Quote: "After we recovered Julie’s vehicle...we were able to establish that one of the rear doors of her car couldn't be locked,” he said."

Quote: "That particular night, there were strong winds and rain to the extent that the waves were lapping the retaining the wall of the Surf Club."

It wasnt Windy it was "light & variable" That has been reported incorrectly ( in my opinion )
We Cant believe what these reports say..

Quote: “(For the car) to have found its way into the ocean, we concluded that it must have been driven off or rolled off the wall straight into the water where it must have floated momentarily, before being taken out with the motion of the waves, before sinking to the floor of the ocean."

This sounds virtually impossible too [emoji780][emoji121]

I agree with you metic.

Not only were there no strong winds and rain, IMO it would be impossible for the waves to be lapping the retaining wall near boatshed (which is what he's talking about). The tide for the 20th, 21st and 22nd June 1988 was fully out around 9.30 pm and fully in around 9.30 am (a 12 hour cycle which is usual for Perth).

The fact is that when the early morning swimmers arrived at daybreak on the 20th June there was a stretch of sand between the retaining wall and ocean and the car was not there. The tide was still coming in and hadn't been any further up the beach in the past 10 hours (when he thinks the car was disposed of).

Talking about the car acting as some sort of cork also doesn't make sense. But if it was floating around waves and tide would be bringing it to the shore, not out to sea, IMO.

The car was not there the next morning either, but turned up the morning after.

It's people (including cops) making assumptions because there is not in any way a logical explanation.

 

[MRichards]

Kerry Turner went missing from Miller and Shepperdton in the direction she was heading and found in the hills behind a log nearing Canning Dam like many other victims of the era

Kerry had just turned 18, her brother injected with a hotshot drugs 6 years prior.

 

[MRichards]

I agree with you metic.

Not only were there no strong winds and rain, IMO it would be impossible for the waves to be lapping the retaining wall near boatshed (which is what he's talking about). The tide for the 20th, 21st and 22nd June 1988 was fully out around 9.30 pm and fully in around 9.30 am (a 12 hour cycle which is usual for Perth).

The fact is that when the early morning swimmers arrived at daybreak on the 20th June there was a stretch of sand between the retaining wall and ocean and the car was not there. The tide was still coming in and hadn't been any further up the beach in the past 10 hours (when he thinks the car was disposed of).

Talking about the car acting as some sort of cork also doesn't make sense. But if it was floating around waves and tide would be bringing it to the shore, not out to sea, IMO.

The car was not there the next morning either, but turned up the morning after.

It's people (including cops) making assumptions because there is not in any way a logical explanation.

If you look in the pictures, you will see the onshore winds when they are pulling the car out.
Your comments conflict with police, media and rough weather the next day in the picture as they pull out the car.

Driving the car off the wall is the most logical and either way it really matters little when considering the other police reports.

That was, they dont believe Julie was in the car when it entered the water.
Julie reported a madman trying to run her off the road.
There were no other clothes in the car including the shoulder bag she often wore that police cannot locate.

Police believe Julie was murdered. Police believe Julie was not in the car.

 

[MRichards]

No matter what the situation, I could drive that car off the wall into the ocean.

But the first thing I would do is unclip the back seat to ensure the car didnt float.

And Im no driver, nor the one that Julie reported attempting run her off the road.

The person who drove the car off the wall knew they would achieve their goal which buried the car in the ocean.
They had experience like the madman driver.

Julie was not there. Its a mute point trying to imply she was or how the car got in the water.

We have a picture of the rough weather.

The naked bloke washed in up the nuddy beach end indicitive of body travel a few weeks later. There is your modelling.

Its spilt milk. Pointless writing pages about it.

 

[MRichards]

Maybe we will find out the flat Julie Cutler lived in future.
We have no info to go on really.

Troy Masters was a waiter.

Masters unit in Leonard st was only one street from Miller st intersection where Kerry Turner went missing but this arterial also leads to thr current accused principle place of address.

Masters raped and murdered 30-year-old Victoria Clarke in her home on Leonard St, Victoria Park, in April 1987.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/wa...s-in-jail-ng-caabadc94c068367a745b2fea510be56

Kerry Turner ( June 30, 1991)

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...der-of-teen-kerry-turner-20160628-gptg4f.html

 

[no name]

The naked bloke washed in up the nuddy beach end indicitive of body travel a few weeks later. There is your modelling.

What naked bloke washed in towards Swanbourne? How is this indicative of body travel, do you know where he went into the water?
I assume your not referring to the man who was found face down at the base of a cliff on a section of rocky shoreline near Gibney St "Body found on Cottesloe Beach" article posted many times in WS, as your details are completely different to that report.

 

[meticulously]

No matter what the situation, I could drive that car off the wall into the ocean.But the first thing I would do is unclip the back seat to ensure the car didnt float.And Im no driver, nor the one that Julie reported attempting run her off the road.The person who drove the car off the wall knew they would achieve their goal which buried the car in the ocean.
They had experience like the madman driver.Julie was not there.Its a mute point trying to imply she was or how the car got in the water.We have a picture of the rough weather.The naked bloke washed in up the nuddy beach end indicitive of body travel a few weeks later.There is your modelling.
Its spilt milk.Pointless writing pages about it.

Quote MRichards:"Its a mute point trying to imply she was or how the car got in the water.
We have a picture of the rough weather.
The naked bloke washed in up the nuddy beach end indicitive of body travel a few weeks later.
There is your modelling.
Its spilt milk.
Pointless writing pages about it." Unquote.


Mr MRichards the dead body was south Cottesloe.
It was not the "Nuddy beach" , which is north.It was south cottesloe.
Pay attention to the details or your modeling is very wrong, 180 degrees out.
Crimes can be solved by studying the MO of the perpetrator so we try figure out how the car got in the ocean so far out from the shore. Madman is a possibility .
Whats the dead mans body got to do with JC'S disappearance anyway please tell ?
We dont know if , or where? he entered the ocean to start with so, theres no ocean currents modeling possible anyway.

"A Picture of the rough weather".
I dont think thats rough , thats called fine.
Maybe you mean the waves ?
The only thing in the picture behind the car is waves, they're called "swell" as in ocean swell = waves, No rough weather.
The "Rough weather" was in the days before JC disappeared, and also the days after the car was retrieved, on Wednesday 22nd.
Weather changes fast especially in winter its not the same every day [emoji274][emoji276]

Forecast and hindcasts of up to 3 metres of swell in metropolitan waters at the time JC disappeared in the early hours of monday 20th. The fiat car went in then (according to the new newspaper report).

This is why the detectives believe that the car went in on the 1st night ;
Because there were no tracks on the sand to be seen.
They figured it out due to the lack of tracks on the beach.
That is because the waves were washing up to the surf club wall the 1st night !

If the car went in the ocean on the 2nd or 3rd night the investigators think car tracks would be seen.
This is because the waves werent washing up on those 2nd & 3rd nights.
The information on swell size and weather is important, that is how they figured that out. My opinion only.


I have corrected the errors that cause confusion due to misinformation by the news reporter , hope it helps ..

(*Errors corrected by me regarding the waves, the writer doesnt seem to have understood the difference between waves and tide) version below;

"We were able to arrive at that conclusion because there was no sign of the vehicle at the beach when the regular swimmers arrived at daybreak to undertake their daily exercises.
That particular night, there were (big* waves) to the extent that the waves were lapping the retaining the wall of the Cottesloe Surf Club.
It had to go into the water that night because the next day, the sea* had subsided, the swell* had eased leaving a wide gap of sand between the edge of the retaining wall and the surf." = no tracks to be seen.


Quote from the article below;
“It had to go into the water that night because the next day, the water had subsided"
https://www.watoday.com.au/national...e-question-still-remains-20180423-p4zb5k.html

 

[Pandit]

Met has just explained in a post, the tide had nothing to do with it. There had been a big swell which brought the waves up to the promenade, there are plenty of pics over the web to demonstrate this at Cottesloe even in summer.

I don't think you can state that the Fiat wasn't in the sea at daybreak. It just wasn't noticed. Not seen straight away lying on a disturbed sea floor in water that was murky after such a big swell and perfectly camouflaged being two tone grey.

Unlike a light back seat which of course was spotted straight away because it was found washed up on the beach.

Again, the detective didn't suggest at all the car acted as some kind of cork bobbing up and down. It didn't. He said it floated momentarily. It went over the wall, propelled forward with some weight behind it, hit the sea and slewed around before settling.

There is nothing illogical with this scenario.

EDIT: What would be really interesting to know, or try to calculate is how fast the Fiat was going when it launched off the wall / shelf and into the sea. I'd take a guess it didn't just lazily roll off it, it had picked up quite a bit of speed by the time it went over. Knowing that might help us in working out how many people were involved in ditching the car.

I agree with you metic.

Not only were there no strong winds and rain, IMO it would be impossible for the waves to be lapping the retaining wall near boatshed (which is what he's talking about). The tide for the 20th, 21st and 22nd June 1988 was fully out around 9.30 pm and fully in around 9.30 am (a 12 hour cycle which is usual for Perth).

The fact is that when the early morning swimmers arrived at daybreak on the 20th June there was a stretch of sand between the retaining wall and ocean and the car was not there. The tide was still coming in and hadn't been any further up the beach in the past 10 hours (when he thinks the car was disposed of).

Talking about the car acting as some sort of cork also doesn't make sense. But if it was floating around waves and tide would be bringing it to the shore, not out to sea, IMO.

The car was not there the next morning either, but turned up the morning after.

It's people (including cops) making assumptions because there is not in any way a logical explanation.

 

[MRichards]

Met has just explained in a post, the tide had nothing to do with it. There had been a big swell which brought the waves up to the promenade, there are plenty of pics over the web to demonstrate this at Cottesloe even in summer.

I don't think you can state that the Fiat wasn't in the sea at daybreak. It just wasn't noticed. Not seen straight away lying on a disturbed sea floor in water that was murky after such a big swell and perfectly camouflaged being two tone grey.

Unlike a light back seat which of course was spotted straight away because it was found washed up on the beach.

Again, the detective didn't suggest at all the car acted as some kind of cork bobbing up and down. It didn't. He said it floated momentarily. It went over the wall, propelled forward with some weight behind it, hit the sea and slewed around before settling.

There is nothing illogical with this scenario.

EDIT: What would be really interesting to know, or try to calculate is how fast the Fiat was going when it launched off the wall / shelf and into the sea. I'd take a guess it didn't just lazily roll off it, it had picked up quite a bit of speed by the time it went over. Knowing that might help us in working out how many people were involved in ditching the car.

IThe article says the car was sitting in the bottom of the ocean.
The car would sink like a brick with windows open.
I do ponder the seat was taken out so the car didn't float and maybe murder occurred on the back seat.

Either way, the car immersed with water smashed more dents in the car hiding any collision and cleansed the vehicle of any DNA.