Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[Grey-St]

Grey-St, I respect your depth of knowledge in this area. I have a question that perhaps you or other knowledgeable posters have the answer to. When the PI team contracted with Dr. Chiasson, would the terms of his engagement be simply to perform an examination and autopsy, and report the findings to the PI team? Or could the terms of his engagement be to perform an examination and autopsy to identify and report on factors or evidence that could support a finding of M/M?
I am asking this not to question the dr,s ethics- I am just wondering if an engagement with specific and targeted terms of reference like that can be accepted and undertaken by a pathologist/doctor.
I appreciate everyone’s expertise here. :thinking:

Dr. Chaisson would have been hired to perform an examination and autopsy, and report the findings to the PI team. People hired to do such things, must remain unbiased, whether they are hired by the province, or privately. It's the only way such evidence and findings will hold up in court, or be legitimate in any way. It would be sooo messy if "let me know what you find to support M/M" were to be said when they were hired.

As deugirtni also said, I totally get having a critical eye when following these cases. I myself am always wearing that hat when analyzing statements and stories and plots. It's important to read between the lines and pay attention to the details and nuances of a case. But on this point, I have faith in the private team. I just can't believe that any of them would risk their careers, profession, legitimacy and reputation on corruption. These are extremely experienced professionals, in fact, more experienced than the LE team. I believe they want to get to the bottom of the truth.

To add to that, the information just makes more sense to me. It fits. I pay no mind to the fact that the family felt they had to hire their own team. That doesn't make the findings false. They did what they had to do after being disappointed by the LE teams premature narrative. I would have done no different if I had the means.

 

[Grey-St]

C’mon....Chiasson was hired/paid by Greenspan to conclude it was a double murder. Greenspan was retained by the Sherman family to dispel the theory that it was murder/suicide.
Try to see through the smoke and mirrors. If something doesn’t make sense or add up....try to read between the lines
****In over 5 months: one public announcement from the TPS...not a single update nor Q+A?!?!

Sorry KW, but I just don't believe that. The team was hired to get to the truth after the family was disappointed in LE and thus lost trust in them. I don't really see any smoke and mirrors there.

Why do folks think we are entitled to constant updates? TPS is investigating an extremely complex case. When they have something worth reporting publicly, they will.

 

[Grey-St]

You know this how?


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Because that's what makes the most sense. Everyone on the private team is an experienced professional. What doesn't make the most sense, is that this is some large scale conspiracy or corruption, involving everyone from investigators to all levels of political officials.

JMO though.

 

[Grey-St]

Lol, what makes you think that the private investigators have any more info than you or I?

And why wouldn’t TPS talk to reporters? They do all the time.


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I would certainly think that all investigators have more information on this case than your or I.

 

[Grey-St]

Yes he did. He discredited the theory TPS was leaning towards. How many investigations do police get wrong? Less than 1%? Yet if you go back in these threads, you will see that I predicted that the family’s experts would discredit the TPS theory. So either I’m clairvoyant or the obvious fix was in from the beginning.


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In today's climate, TPS seems to get a lot of things wrong.

In any sense, their "theory" was leaked. They never once made a statement that they whole heartedly believed this was a M/S. They spent many months investigating. Would they have done so if they firmly believed this was M/S from the beginning? Or would they have made that finding and closed the case?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I hope in the hours that WS is offline the Sherman loved ones get the answers to their questions.

Thank you to everyone here for shedding light on the case!

 

[JDG]

I think its important to recognize that when a family asks for a private autopsy, they are NOT 'bribing' someone to tell their hoped for outcome. They are simply double checking, against or conferring with the coroners autopsy. Its no different, to me, than getting a second opinion before a major surgery.

In this kind of horrific murder, any family who could afford it, likely would do this. MOO

 

[casesensitive]

I think its important to recognize that when a family asks for a private autopsy, they are NOT 'bribing' someone to tell their hoped for outcome. They are simply double checking, against or conferring with the coroners autopsy. Its no different, to me, than getting a second opinion before a major surgery.

In this kind of horrific murder, any family who could afford it, likely would do this. MOO

I agree. The fact that the first pathologist cooperated and shared information (crime scene photos) with the family hired pathologist is noteworthy, imo. These are both professional, forensic specialists and their main goal was to find the truth. It is apparent that the Chief of Forensic Pathology came to the same conclusion as the second pathologist and was bound by duty to report this to LE.

 

[ldlager]

I agree. The fact that the first pathologist cooperated and shared information (crime scene photos) with the family hired pathologist is noteworthy, imo. These are both professional, forensic specialists and their main goal was to find the truth. It is apparent that the Chief of Forensic Pathology came to the same conclusion as the second pathologist and was bound by duty to report this to LE.

RBBM. Actually, with respect casesensitive, I do not think that is necessarily the case. What we do know is that the first pathologist did not conclude or determine that both were murdered after he performed the first autopsy. He may or may not have changed his mind after the second autopsy, we don’t know that. What we also do know is that based on the evidence collected by LE, including perhaps evidence collected by the PI team, they announced a MM. it is possible that evidence other than the results of the second autopsy could have led them to that conclusion.

 

[casesensitive]

RBBM. Actually, with respect casesensitive, I do not think that is necessarily the case. What we do know is that the first pathologist did not conclude or determine that both were murdered after he performed the first autopsy. He may or may not have changed his mind after the second autopsy, we don’t know that. What we also do know is that based on the evidence collected by LE, including perhaps evidence collected by the PI team, they announced a MM. it is possible that evidence other than the results of the second autopsy could have led them to that conclusion.

Yes, there is more evidence besides the autopsies, as noted by the lead detective in her press video. (eg outstanding persons caught on surveillance video in the neighbourhood). But I think Dr. Pickup's boss, the Chief of Forensic Pathology would have to agree with Dr. Chiasson's results for LE to wholly accept MM. She did mention and give credit to the extensive partnership with the forensic agency. JMO

 

[Hazel]

I agree. The fact that the first pathologist cooperated and shared information (crime scene photos) with the family hired pathologist is noteworthy, imo. These are both professional, forensic specialists and their main goal was to find the truth. It is apparent that the Chief of Forensic Pathology came to the same conclusion as the second pathologist and was bound by duty to report this to LE.

RBBM. Actually, with respect casesensitive, I do not think that is necessarily the case. What we do know is that the first pathologist did not conclude or determine that both were murdered after he performed the first autopsy. He may or may not have changed his mind after the second autopsy, we don’t know that. What we also do know is that based on the evidence collected by LE, including perhaps evidence collected by the PI team, they announced a MM. it is possible that evidence other than the results of the second autopsy could have led them to that conclusion.

IMHO ldlager got it right.

IMHO casesensitive, it is NOT apparent, quite the contrary. Otherwise, we would all be agreeing here.

The second autopsies by the hired ME and consequent conclusions took place and were made the same day, December 20th.

Like ldlager well said, the first ME may or may not have changed his mind after the second set of autopsies by the hired ME. We don't know that.

However, the TPS investigations continued well into January 2018, considering Honey as the ONLY victim.

The TPS learned about the PI's conclusions at the same time as the public, by reading the news article on the Toronto SUN, by Joe Warmington, January 19, 2018.

Subsequently, on Monday January 22, the TPS interviewed with the second pathologist.
We don't know who else was present during that interview, possibly the whole "oldies team," maybe the family, maybe the first pathology, we just don't know.

What we do know is that at that point in time, the Private hired team had not set foot in the house.

Anyone remember when the crime scene (Old Colony house) was released to the hired Private Investigators? IIRC it was the date the earring piece was found, which for many, that finding came off as another preemptive measure. JMHO

When were the toxicology test results available? A complete Timeline of Events would be so very useful.

 

[Hazel]

By the way, if memory serves, the family first hired the lawyer, Dr. BG.

He in turn hired the 3 detectives (not sure if all three are ex-investigators, retired).

Not sure if it was the lawyer or the investigators who in turn hired the second pathologist.

Maybe someone can explain why hire the lawyer? It's not like he could conduct any investigations.

Kind of intimidating, no? It's even quite intimidating posting opinions and theories here, even if they are based on the few facts we have learned. JMHO
Are we posters going to get in hot water if we don't blindly accept, and keep asking questions? cguru:

:truce:

:escape:

 

[Hazel]

Message for deugirtni:
Found these that you can add to your awesome Timeline.
Still so many more dates to add, like for example:
When was Honey's car towed/removed from the driveway?
When was Barry's car towed away from the underground garage?
All these events' dates paint a clearer picture when put together in a Timeline.
As I said already, perhaps there is a good reason why things were done this way, but until we learn more details, so far it's hard to see the reason, other than they were thinking m/s up until that interview on Jan. 22. JMHO.

It was in the final week of his life that Sherman stepped up his legal efforts to recover the $150,000 he said he had lost, a relatively small amount for a man reportedly worth nearly $5 billion. Still, on Dec. 13 his lawyers filed an aggressive motion to the court — with the goal of moving the case more promptly to trial.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/barry-sherman-lawsuit-1.4506346

Apotex president and CEO steps down amid allegations of trade secret leaks
January 26, 2018
https://www.cp24.com/news/apotex-pr...d-allegations-of-trade-secret-leaks-1.3777333

Jan. 26, 2018 (Friday)
Private investigators takes over at the Toronto home of Barry and Honey Sherman.

Jan. 26, 2018
LE's press release announcing MM.

Alas for the latter pair, as Toronto police haven’t yet released the Sherman house from its custody, the two identification officers have had little to do.

Team Sherman is modelling itself after a proper police-run investigation, with “a major case conference,” where investigators share and exchange ideas, in the offing at some as yet unknown date.

Thus far, it appears, they’re doing a bang-up job, right down to allegedly unauthorized leaks of information — and considerably more of it, too.
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/chr...-sherman-case-share-police-penchant-for-leaks

 

[WINDSOR]

Does anyone find it more than a little strange that Frank D’Angelo has been completely silent for the past several months?

Frank is an interesting character to say the least. He had a brewery and juice company that he promoted heavily, in fact he spent more money on advertising than the company earned. He went bankrupt and lost everything.

Frank was heavily indebted to Barry Sherman. I believe Barry's son owns and runs the juice company now. Barry appeared to like Frank and remained friends. I do not know how they became initially involved together.

Frank, went into film production, and produced some 'mafia genre' films. I am not sure Barry was involved in the financing of these films. They were artistically, creatively and commercially awful!

Frank, has been on TV speaking about Barry. Frank could know things that might be relevant to what happened in my opinion.

 

[Hazel]

Frank is an interesting character to say the least. He had a brewery and juice company that he promoted heavily, in fact he spent more money on advertising than the company earned. He went bankrupt and lost everything.

Frank was heavily indebted to Barry Sherman. I believe Barry's son owns and runs the juice company now. Barry appeared to like Frank and remained friends. I do not know how they became initially involved together.

Frank, went into film production, and produced some 'mafia genre' films. I am not sure Barry was involved in the financing of these films. They were artistically, creatively and commercially awful!

Frank, has been on TV speaking about Barry. Frank could know things that might be relevant to what happened in my opinion.

Do you know if FD is Jewish? If he is, maybe that's how they got to know each other?
I read recently that a Canadian actress that worked on many of his movies, died in California. When googling, I found his twitter account, he was quite devastated about her passing. Scrolling a bit down, read that his father had passed too, sometime at the beginning of this year, so perhaps that's why we haven't heard of him anymore.

I never watched any of his movies, were they that awful? I only watched bits and pieces of his TV show, and I do like some of his songs, like for example "Dreamer" even if I don't like Jazz at all, I like that song, lol. And I do believe that Barry Sherman was a producer of some of FD's movies.

In an interview last December, he said he had talked to BS on the phone days or weeks before his demise, so it seems they were in good terms, and were friends.

 

[dotr]

Lengthy, never posted article.
https://www.thestar.com/news/2007/11/04/the_ballad_of_frank_dangelo.html
Nov 4 2007

[h=1]The ballad of Frank D'Angelo[/h]

[FONT=helvetica,arial]THE ANNALS OF BUSINESS [/FONT]are packed with mentors and guarantors and long-lived business types who decide for myriad reasons to backstop the dreams of entrepreneurs. Surely one of the more curious pairings has been that of Barry Sherman, founder of generic drug manufacturer Apotex Inc., and Frank D'Angelo.

How, one wonders, did Sherman come to be Frank's sugar daddy?

"I'm gonna tell you the story," says D'Angelo.
Up near Tiverton, on the Bruce Peninsula, D'Angelo says he lusted after a "state-of-the-art" plant, owned by Sherman. It had this "aura" about it, he says. It was "magnificent."

D'Angelo is unclear on what the plant had been used for, though he does offer a hard-to-follow story about an herbal supplement that was being manufactured for livestock, "especially pigs." Something to do with getting the pigs to produce less gas.

Anyway, "I heard just in passing that the plant was going to be sold, piece by piece ... I thought that would be a horrible thing to do to a plant like that, so I went to speak to Mr. Sherman."

The plant additionally hosted a "state-of-the-art" brewery. "So I figured if I took that plant, and I sell the brewery, that would subsidize the purchase of the plant," D'Angelo explains. "That was my whole genius plan. That was my Wile E. Coyote plan. The boy-am-I-impressed-with-you-Frank plan."

Two things happened.

A: D'Angelo's notion of trucking Ontario apples and New York State apples and apples from northern Michigan all the way to Tiverton proved – let's not register too much surprise here – less than economically wise. "It had huge logistical challenges so we stopped.... It was not a good business decision."

Sherman took on the role of financier while D'Angelo took on the burden of $100 million in debt, against which he pledged corporate assets, including the company's facility in Brampton and his Forest Hill home, to various Sherman companies. "I put all my eggs into it," says D'Angelo. "I put everything I had into this."

D'Angelo says his marketing budget on the beer side alone this year will come to $15 million on a business that has yet to show a profit. Two weeks ago the company purchased another plant in Quebec. D'Angelo won't name the price. "We're at the investment stage," he says of the beer agenda. "I believe that it's a viable business. I believe that it's a business that really needs a lot of nurturing."

Did Barry Sherman's patience grow thin?

D'Angelo says that's not the case. And Sherman's not talking.

On Thursday, Barry Sherman's 24-year-old son, Jonathon, was named chief executive officer.

"I'm staying on as chairman," says D'Angelo. "I'm staying on as the watchful eye."

 

[dotr]

http://torontosun.com/news/crime/wa...partner-knew-from-day-one-couple-was-murdered
January 27, 2018

“I knew it was murder, but hearing her say that was like a kick in the, you know,” he said, adding, “I told you that from day one.”

But now that it’s official, D’Angelo, who had Sherman as a business partner in his movie endeavours and beverage businesses — including the now-defunct Steelback Brewery — has theories on this bizarre case.

“I believe the pieces of s— who did this were already in the house and I believe they killed Honey in front of Barry,” he said. “What a terrible ending for some truly great people.”

He also believes there were at least two people involved.

“The Toronto Police know what they are doing,” said D’Angelo to why investigators let the public believe for 42 days as a suspicious death when sources called it a murder-suicide.

“I believe the cops did that on purpose to create chatter, you know, to get whoever did it to not know what they were thinking.”

Could an earring found at the end of the driveway outside the Sherman mansion murder scene Saturday be a clue to help police catch the killers?

In a case with few leads, all clues are welcome.

 

[ldlager]

Frank is an interesting character to say the least. He had a brewery and juice company that he promoted heavily, in fact he spent more money on advertising than the company earned. He went bankrupt and lost everything.

Frank was heavily indebted to Barry Sherman. I believe Barry's son owns and runs the juice company now. Barry appeared to like Frank and remained friends. I do not know how they became initially involved together.

Frank, went into film production, and produced some 'mafia genre' films. I am not sure Barry was involved in the financing of these films. They were artistically, creatively and commercially awful!

Frank, has been on TV speaking about Barry. Frank could know things that might be relevant to what happened in my opinion.

Thanks Windsor. Barry financed the films for sure. They certainly had an unusual relationship, but they were/are unusual characters. By all accounts, FD owed Barry a bunch of money, related to several ventures (I hesitate to call them business ventures). How much of it was documented I don’t know. What I find so unusual is FD took every chance he had to speak out to whoever would listen about the death of BS, how he was his best friend, etc. Suddenly, when the investigation starts in earnest, he is nowhere to be found. Has someone (his lawyer perhaps?) told him to shut up? In the interim, I can’t help but suspect that the Sherman children and/or their advisors have cut off the money flow to Mr. D’Angelo.

 

[ldlager]

By the way, if memory serves, the family first hired the lawyer, Dr. BG.

He in turn hired the 3 detectives (not sure if all three are ex-investigators, retired).

Not sure if it was the lawyer or the investigators who in turn hired the second pathologist.

Maybe someone can explain why hire the lawyer? It's not like he could conduct any investigations.

Kind of intimidating, no? It's even quite intimidating posting opinions and theories here, even if they are based on the few facts we have learned. JMHO
Are we posters going to get in hot water if we don't blindly accept, and keep asking questions? cguru:

:truce:

:escape:

Hazel, please keep posting, and don’t feel intimidated about doing so. We value your thoughts and opinions!!

 

[Hazel]

Hazel, please keep posting, and don’t feel intimidated about doing so. We value your thoughts and opinions!!

Oh jeez, and here I was thinking these would be my last posts. I was thinking of not coming back after the site moves to new software.
Scary stuff with all the identity stuff going on and new technologies.
I mean don't want to be "silenced" for not going with the flow, or sued or something.