South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi Van Breda, 22, Murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #5

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Closure is not for me either. It sounds as if they will put the whole matter behind them and move on! Move on of course, it’s necessary, but closure, No.
 
Tracey Stewart said in her interview with Kelly Phelps:

What Henri has to prove:

And then of course you have quite a strong version from Henri. He took the court into his confidence. He got into the witness box and his version has not differed from day one, much. You know, obviously he’s added a few things here and there or he’s remembered more detail where he perhaps didn’t on the first day, but basically from the first police officer who spoke to him, this was his version which is quite strong. So I think that Judge Desai has even, keeping in mind the legal tests that need to apply when you are looking at circumstantial evidence and now you also have an accused’s version which is, has been tested and has withstood those tests, it makes it even more difficult for Judge Desai to actually come to a decision whether or not he should convict or acquit”.

She’s an absolute lightweight and hasn’t got a clue. I’ve stated repeatedly that differing versions raise a huge red flag. The changes he made were significant, but not according to Tracey. I won’t go over them again because we all know what they are. It certainly mattered to Judge Desai and he noted many of the discrepancies in his Judgment.
 
Tracey Stewart said in her interview with Kelly Phelps:

What Henri has to prove:

And then of course you have quite a strong version from Henri. He took the court into his confidence. He got into the witness box and his version has not differed from day one, much. You know, obviously he’s added a few things here and there or he’s remembered more detail where he perhaps didn’t on the first day, but basically from the first police officer who spoke to him, this was his version which is quite strong. So I think that Judge Desai has even, keeping in mind the legal tests that need to apply when you are looking at circumstantial evidence and now you also have an accused’s version which is, has been tested and has withstood those tests, it makes it even more difficult for Judge Desai to actually come to a decision whether or not he should convict or acquit”.

She’s an absolute lightweight and hasn’t got a clue. I’ve stated repeatedly that differing versions raise a huge red flag. The changes he made were significant, but not according to Tracey. I won’t go over them again because we all know what they are. It certainly mattered to Judge Desai and he noted many of the discrepancies in his Judgment.

She hasn't got a clue, absolutely JJ. She's saying, " ... his version which is quite strong" ... er, no, here on WS we all thought his version was totally unbelievable but we were worried Judge Desai might be another Masipa and that Botha's tactics might just win the day. Thankfully Judge Desai is nobody's fool and called it how he - and we - all saw it.

And thankfully we're all back here again, and even if everything looks very different right now, there will be improvements and we'll get used to the changes. I am a bit :eek: at the smilies however.
 
"Investigative forensic psychologist Professor Gerard Labuschagne and former Colonel Bronwynn Stollarz joined Martin Bester on air on Tuesday to discuss the case."

Forensic psychologist and former colonel reveals interesting facts about van Breda murder

That was really interesting. I recognised Labuschagne's name instantly. He attended OP's home shortly after he heard of the shooting as he wanted to observe his psychological state in the hope that it might yield some clue as to what exactly had happened that night.

The news that the suspect was about to be taken to the hospital would give him the opportunity to observe him over the course of several hours, to try and gain a sense of whether he was telling the truth or not. He spent nearly three hours with him at the hospital, most of the time alone.

He's had a fascinating career but retired from the SAPS because he ended up having a managerial role and he preferred to be involved with cases. He's now in private practice.
 
She hasn't got a clue, absolutely JJ. She's saying, " ... his version which is quite strong" ... er, no, here on WS we all thought his version was totally unbelievable but we were worried Judge Desai might be another Masipa and that Botha's tactics might just win the day. Thankfully Judge Desai is nobody's fool and called it how he - and we - all saw it.

And thankfully we're all back here again, and even if everything looks very different right now, there will be improvements and we'll get used to the changes. I am a bit :eek: at the smilies however.

I understand that the issue of smilies is being addressed. I have my sources. :)
 
Oh, and just this little thing occurred to me: that he turned up for the verdict with a pre-emptive buzzcut. He knew perfectly well he'd be going down and facing a shaved head, but he wasn't going to let them do it to him; he'd do it first. Arrogant to the last.
 
I
Oh, and just this little thing occurred to me: that he turned up for the verdict with a pre-emptive buzzcut. He knew perfectly well he'd be going down and facing a shaved head, but he wasn't going to let them do it to him; he'd do it first. Arrogant to the last.

I was surprised how much weight he'd lost, but even more surprised to see how skinny Danielle was - a shadow of her former self.
 
I found this almost identical case of a 16 year old (David Brom) who axed to death his parents and brother and sister. The male family members attacked first and the mother and sister attacked when they came to investigate.

The girl said Brom told her he had gotten into an argument with his father at about 11:30 p.m. the previous night, and that he then stayed up until about 3 a.m.
David Brom - Wikipedia

he had a fight with his father over the songs he listened to, which possibly resulted in the deed.

Status: Sentenced to three consecutive life terms (and one concurrent life term) on October 17, 1989, and will be eligible for parole when he turns 70

David Francis Brom | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers

If Brom ever thinks about why he murdered his father, mother, sister, and brother, he has never shared it with the rest of the world over the past 30 years.

"I think everybody involved with that case asks themselves that question, and I have no answer," Judge Terrence Walters told KTTC.

Walters was the court-appointed attorney who represented Brom all those years ago.

[...]

30 years ago, Torgerson was a patrol deputy who got the call at 5:23 p.m. to do a welfare check at the Brom family home.

"I got up maybe four, five, six steps, and I could see two sets of feet laying at the tops of the steps," he recalled.

[...]

KTTC has sent letters to Brom, asking him about who he is 30 years after his crime, but we haven't received a response.

30 years after Brom murders: Where are we now?
 
I am way behind, so do not know if this will be discussed, in later posts.
What does this statement mean Tortoise: that Henri cannot appeal the judgement????
I meant it is a comprehensive Judgement that has sound reasons for all the findings. It's very clever because when I have thought of things he didn't include I realize there is a rationale for not including them - it's always matters of speculation. I'll try and think of some examples tomorrow because I'm a bit tired right now, but when I read the whole summary judgment yesterday these things occurred to me along the way.

Having said that there was a little niggle in the back of my mind at one point. I thought of something that the defence might challenge, but I can't remember what that was either right now. I will sleep on it and see if I can take my mind back to it tomorrow.
 
I understand that the issue of smilies is being addressed. I have my sources. :)

How wonderful.
We need our emotions displayed, as we go through these Threads: especially when we receive the Guilty verdict.
We went wild here. So wonderful.
Even now, I get tears in my eyes, as so happy.
Plus sharing with fellow Sleuthers, who are interested is great, as my friends "don't follow this interest" and aren't concerned with my accounts of these events.
 
Part 1

Here are the main points from the interview with Prof. Labuschagne and former Col. Stollarz, forensic clinical psychologists:

They both referred to two other family murderers and noted that the accused in those cases, as well as HvB, showed lack of emotion and were oddly calm people.

They’ve both previously had a number of family murder cases were an axe was involved. If you need to kill a bunch of people, if you shoot them it’s going to make a noise after the first shot and alert the neighbours. If you stab someone, even if they’re asleep, they’re going to wake up and scream. An axe is a combination of blunt force trauma with a penetrating wound. If you hit someone on the head with an axe, usually they’re unconscious literally almost immediately. So it is a way of targeting multiple victims by yourself in a way that will allow you to get to the others, with hopefully, the other ones not waking up before you get to them.

What they often see in family murder cases is that they attack their families when their families are either asleep or in a relaxed mode, so watching TV or reading a book in bed, which gives them the opportunity to have the upper hand. Obviously these young men may be worried about dad overpowering them or getting in the way. So they use an extremely lethal weapon that you’re only going to have to hit the person with maybe once or twice to incapacitate them. The other thing they always keep in mind with an axe are elements like overkill and I know the Judge commented that Rudi had significantly more injuries than the others. They saw this in one of the other family murders, so a lot of emotion happening at the time that he attacked that particular individual.

Q. What does that tell you? Was he maybe the original cause of the upset?

A. There was definitely something happening in that relationship. We see it in almost every family murder, that there is an identified person who suffers significant injuries.
 
Part 2

Labuschagne immediately shut down the conspiracy theories that Marli had helped HvB plan this. She had massive amounts of brain trauma. There were multiple penetrating axe wounds into the brain. When he saw the photographs of her in hospital, he couldn’t believe that she survived and it’s a miracle that she recovered. He doubts she will ever recover her memories of that night.

Regarding motive, Stollarz refers to researcher and author, Kathleen Hyde, who says that there are 3 main reasons that offspring kill their parents and a sibling(s).

1. They are seriously abused and they kill their families in what they believe is the only way for them to escape the cycle of abuse.

2. A serious mentally ill offender who has a psychotic or delusional illness and they kill, for example, their mum and dad because they believe mum and dad are poisoning their food. That suspect will never go on trial.

3. The antisocial offender who kills for selfish reasons, and that, hands down, is what we’re seeing in the large majority of cases – children who feel that the family structure is too tight.

Often parents are too strict or too difficult or haven’t disciplined a child enough and then start to discipline a child as they get to their teens and early adulthood, and these children kill their families almost in an act of rebellion. “I want to do” X, Y or Z. “This is what I want to do with my life” and a parent who is saying, “No, no, no”.

“There have been no reports of physical abuse, sexual abuse, or anything like that. We know he’s not seriously mentally ill because he went on trial. So we do have to query did he kill his parents for selfish reasons”.
 
Part 3

Q. In this country we call it Correctional Services. Can a guy who murdered his mother, father and brother and tried to murder his sister with an axe be corrected?

A. I think the question is, would you want to take the risk of letting such a person out? These are such rare events. We don’t fully understand them. It is very often cold and calculating which is a risk concern that you could do this to your closest family not when they’re in the process of attacking you. It’s not a self-defence issue. So I think I’d be very concerned about the rehabilitation of any of these offenders.

You get family members – the family gets very divided. Half the family supports the accused, believing that he’s innocent and the half of the family doesn’t, even after conviction, which happened with Henri. His remaining family believes he’s innocent.

Q. Do they believe he’s innocent even if it’s overwhelmingly pointing in their direction.

A. No. I think they just like to maintain the pretence for whatever reasons, because I think I think if they admitted it, then they’d lose their other family support also.

With family murders we tend not to see any leakage behaviour (warning signs). We see these young men who have no obvious signs of what we call “conduct disorder” or any other behavioural problems that don’t originate from family systems that are otherwise very abusive or difficult – killing their families without prior warning, and that is what makes them unnerving because if you can kill those with whom you are supposed to have the closest relationship and attachment, what is your capacity in terms of what you can do to others.

Q. Do you think a guy like Henri van Breda is dangerous to other people or was he just dangerous to his family?

A. I think probably the safest point of view to have is to say “Yes”.

Forensic psychologist and former colonel reveals interesting facts about van Breda murder
 
Part 2

Labuschagne immediately shut down the conspiracy theories that Marli had helped HvB plan this. She had massive amounts of brain trauma. There were multiple penetrating axe wounds into the brain. When he saw the photographs of her in hospital, he couldn’t believe that she survived and it’s a miracle that she recovered. He doubts she will ever recover her memories of that night.

Regarding motive, Stollarz refers to researcher and author, Kathleen Hyde, who says that there are 3 main reasons that offspring kill their parents and a sibling(s).

1. They are seriously abused and they kill their families in what they believe is the only way for them to escape the cycle of abuse.

2. A serious mentally ill offender who has a psychotic or delusional illness and they kill, for example, their mum and dad because they believe mum and dad are poisoning their food. That suspect will never go on trial.

3. The antisocial offender who kills for selfish reasons, and that, hands down, is what we’re seeing in the large majority of cases – children who feel that the family structure is too tight.

Often parents are too strict or too difficult or haven’t disciplined a child enough and then start to discipline a child as they get to their teens and early adulthood, and these children kill their families almost in an act of rebellion. “I want to do” X, Y or Z. “This is what I want to do with my life” and a parent who is saying, “No, no, no”.

“There have been no reports of physical abuse, sexual abuse, or anything like that. We know he’s not seriously mentally ill because he went on trial. So we do have to query did he kill his parents for selfish reasons”.

But he did not just kill his parents. He killed or tried to kill anyone who had a claim on his parent's money. That is what this was about.
 
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