Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[MistyWaters]

IMHO ldlager got it right.

IMHO casesensitive, it is NOT apparent, quite the contrary. Otherwise, we would all be agreeing here.

The second autopsies by the hired ME and consequent conclusions took place and were made the same day, December 20th.

Like ldlager well said, the first ME may or may not have changed his mind after the second set of autopsies by the hired ME. We don't know that.

However, the TPS investigations continued well into January 2018, considering Honey as the ONLY victim.

The TPS learned about the PI's conclusions at the same time as the public, by reading the news article on the Toronto SUN, by Joe Warmington, January 19, 2018.

Subsequently, on Monday January 22, the TPS interviewed with the second pathologist.
We don't know who else was present during that interview, possibly the whole "oldies team," maybe the family, maybe the first pathology, we just don't know.

What we do know is that at that point in time, the Private hired team had not set foot in the house.

Anyone remember when the crime scene (Old Colony house) was released to the hired Private Investigators? IIRC it was the date the earring piece was found, which for many, that finding came off as another preemptive measure. JMHO

When were the toxicology test results available? A complete Timeline of Events would be so very useful.

BBM

Other than the TPS press conference by Sgt. Susan Gomes on January 26th, what has been published by the media has been contributed via anonymous sources. Greenspan did not authenticate the “PIs conclusions” printed by the Sun on Jan 19th were legitimate. Maybe it was all a ploy? We just don’t know at this point in time. In my opinion the two teams have been working closely together from the onset and it’s nothing more an advantageous investigative strategy to create doubt.

******
Jan 22nd
“But later Saturday, Greenspan spoke to the Toronto Sun about the already published stories. He said he was surprised by the reports, that he “highly” doubted the leaks had come from anyone on his team (but that if the leaks had come from someone on the team that person would be let go), and said that any “observations” made by the team “would be first shared with the Toronto police. We are not here to interfere with police but to support them.”

Pugash wouldn’t confirm or deny if the forensic pathologist hired by Greenspan to conduct a second autopsy, Dr. David Chiasson, had shared his observations with the police, or if the force felt “supported.”

Greenspan didn’t answer the same question in an email Postmedia sent him Monday — had Chiasson handed over his post-mortem report? — but said rather, “The specifics of our co-operation with the TPS, when it is made public, will be released to everyone at the same time.”
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/chr...-sherman-case-share-police-penchant-for-leaks

 

[MistyWaters]

By the way, if memory serves, the family first hired the lawyer, Dr. BG.

He in turn hired the 3 detectives (not sure if all three are ex-investigators, retired).

Not sure if it was the lawyer or the investigators who in turn hired the second pathologist.

Maybe someone can explain why hire the lawyer? It's not like he could conduct any investigations.

Kind of intimidating, no? It's even quite intimidating posting opinions and theories here, even if they are based on the few facts we have learned. JMHO
Are we posters going to get in hot water if we don't blindly accept, and keep asking questions? cguru:

:truce:

:escape:

I don’t know about other countries but in Canada it’s very common for an attorney to lead a team hired by a family involving investigative work because of certain legal advantages. It’s possible the PIs and pathologist can only be hired through an arrangement of this type. This is also one reason why PIs may undertake investigative liberties not afforded to LE, yet still work collectively together.

“Why should a lawyer and not a client retain the investigator?
It is wise for anyone requiring the services of a private investigator, who foresees that the investigation may result in litigation, to first retain a lawyer. The reason for this is the legal concept of litigation privilege. When a lawyer is retained and the lawyer in turn retains the private investigator, all information provided by the private investigator is privileged if not used as evidence. In litigation, private investigators cannot claim a qualified privilege between themselves and their clients.“
https://www.legalline.ca/legal-answers/investigation-services-for-lawyers/

And as Brian Greenspan was personally acquainted with the Shermans, it would seem natural to me for the family to reach out to him first.

Dec 22nd
“Toronto lawyer Brian Greenspan confirmed to the Star Wednesday night that he is offering informal help to the family of the billionaire philanthropist and his wife, whose mysterious deaths have shocked the city.

I have been serving as a resource person for the Sherman family and Barry and Honey were people who I admired and respect,” Greenspan said.“
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...sherman-family-conduct-own-investigation.html

 

[MistyWaters]

http://torontosun.com/news/crime/wa...partner-knew-from-day-one-couple-was-murdered
January 27, 2018

From your link:
http://torontosun.com/news/crime/wa...partner-knew-from-day-one-couple-was-murdered


“Toronto Police have interviewed 127 people in the Sherman double murder investigation.

Frank D’Angelo thinks he was Number 127.

They called and I met with them Wednesday,” the entrepreneur and close friend of Dr. Barry Sherman. “I talked with a homicide detective named Brandon Price. He was very smart. Very bright.”

The above is kind of interesting, that D’Angelo was interviewed by Det Price and then goes on to make this comment:

“The Toronto Police know what they are doing,” said D’Angelo to why investigators let the public believe for 42 days as a suspicious death when sources called it a murder-suicide.

“I believe the cops did that on purpose to create chatter, you know, to get whoever did it to not know what they were thinking.”

Because wasn’t it Det Price who was a source the media attributed to the on-the-scene “possible murder-suicide” theory? Also I can’t find the post so I may be wrong, but I thought I read here that Kerry wrote, like him, Price believed the deaths were m/s. If that were true, it’s quite unusual that D’Angelo specifically mentioned Det Price’s name together with his comments to the contrary.

 

[casesensitive]

It was Det. Brandon Price who gave an update on the day the bodies were found Dec. 15. I don't know if he was one of the media "sources" who leaked the murder/suicide theory.

If true, I do find it interesting that KW and FD'A were left with opposite impressions of what Det. Price might be thinking as to the real manner of death.




https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...at-apotex-founder-barry-shermans-mansion.html

"Homicide detective Brandon Price gave an update shortly before 8:00 p.m. to “alleviate some of the concerns in the neighbourhood.”

“At this point we are not currently seeking a suspect,” Price said. “The situation otherwise is the same. We'll have more information tomorrow after the post mortem examinations.”

 

[MistyWaters]

It was Det. Brandon Price who gave an update on the day the bodies were found Dec. 15. I don't know if he was one of the media "sources" who leaked the murder/suicide theory.

If true, I do find it interesting that KW and FD'A were left with opposite impressions of what Det. Price might be thinking as to the real manner of death.




https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...at-apotex-founder-barry-shermans-mansion.html

"Homicide detective Brandon Price gave an update shortly before 8:00 p.m. to “alleviate some of the concerns in the neighbourhood.”

“At this point we are not currently seeking a suspect,” Price said. “The situation otherwise is the same. We'll have more information tomorrow after the post mortem examinations.”

Thanks very much for clarifying that, likely what I was remembering regarding the way in which his words appeared to some to support a murder-suicide conclusion.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Lengthy, never posted article.
https://www.thestar.com/news/2007/11/04/the_ballad_of_frank_dangelo.html
Nov 4 2007

2016

https://www.macleans.ca/culture/movies/a-lunch-with-frank-dangelo-pitchman-entrepreneur-film-auteur/

A meal with Frank D’Angelo: Pitchman, entrepreneur, auteur

The “we” in this case is Frank and his best friend, Barry Sherman. The chairman of Apotex Inc., Canada’s largest generic drug maker, Sherman is ranked as the country’s 11th-wealthiest person, with a net worth of US$5.3 billion. “He’s a brilliant man. He’s partners in everything that I do,” says D’Angelo. “I trust his judgment. I’m out there. He’s the ABS brakes on my situation as a human being.” They met in 2002, when Sherman was selling a factory he had acquired in Tiverton, Ont., that also contained a small brewery. The relationship blossomed, with Sherman’s Wasanda Enterprises extending more and more financing for D’Angelo’s beverage dreams. At the time of the $120-million 2007 bankruptcy, Sherman was really the only creditor, and held the paper on everything Frank owned, including his home at the time, in Toronto’s Forest Hill neighbourhood.

Sherman rarely gives interviews, but D’Angelo is able to get him on the phone in short order and twist his arm. In the course of a five-minute conversation, he describes Frank as a “hard worker” at least eight times. Their business past was a disappointment, he acknowledges. “Some calculation errors were made that resulted in a substantial loss,” says Sherman, specifying that D’Angelo spent far too much promoting his brands and not enough distributing them. Yet that has no bearing on their current partnership. “When I make decisions, it’s always looking forwards, not backwards,” says Sherman. “And in terms of the films, I believe in him. The value substantially exceeds the costs.” The profits have yet to materialize, but Sherman doesn’t seem too worried. “I like helping people and Frank deserves to succeed.”

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I did like the "thinking" button very much - now it is gone unfortunately.

My thoughts are:
What if BS did have an agreement over ten of years with one of his closest friends (maybe the co-founder of Apotex) to act as an assistant when time comes and BS ever would kill his wife HS.
We know what KW is believing re the death of Honey and that BS had asked him long time ago "to whack his wife". It didn't happen but maybe BS forged a plan for time coming when he would do it himself. Because of his laboriously acquired reputation (relatives, friends and industry) maybe he didn't want to be known as a murderer after suicide. He needed someone who would help to conceal the fact with secretly staging the crime scene after m/s. He needed someone who would react on 1 (one) email and who would know exactly what to do, according to the instructions years ago. IMO MOO and only an idea!
His last email BS did send out of his office when HS already had been at home. It isn't known, who got the email neither the content of the email. It isn't known if somebody from Apotex answered.
What if BS with family determined on calling a certain person when ever the death of himself or Honey would occur. That person had knowledge to inform the children in an arranged way. IMO MOO also, of course.

How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star
Honey left Apotex first, before 5 p.m. Barry, founder of the generic drug giant, left in the early evening. His last known email from his Apotex account was sent between 6:30 p.m. and 8:30 p.m., sources at Apotex say. The Star could not determine the contents of the email, but it was business-related. The Star could not determine if anyone at Apotex responded to the email.

What do you think about some contract with a helper who knew how to enter the home and who knew how to do a staging?

 

[hudunit]

So many unanswered questions.What do we expect.certainly the police will not give any clues.In the beginning it was slipped out that Honey was killed in another room and dragged to the poolroom.What were her stomach contents?Did she eat before she died?It seems if she got home so much sooner that there would be some clues about her activities.Or was she accosted right away.Then there has to be some evidence somewhere of the killer(s) presence in the house.Is it even comfirmed that Honey died first?The fact that she had on the same clothes that she wore that day is a big factor to me.

 

[human]

I did like the "thinking" button very much - now it is gone unfortunately.

My thoughts are:
What if BS did have an agreement over ten of years with one of his closest friends (maybe the co-founder of Apotex) to act as an assistant when time comes and BS ever would kill his wife HS.
We know what KW is believing re the death of Honey and that BS had asked him long time ago "to whack his wife". It didn't happen but maybe BS forged a plan for time coming when he would do it himself. Because of his laboriously acquired reputation (relatives, friends and industry) maybe he didn't want to be known as a murderer after suicide. He needed someone who would help to conceal the fact with secretly staging the crime scene after m/s. He needed someone who would react on 1 (one) email and who would know exactly what to do, according to the instructions years ago. IMO MOO and only an idea!
His last email BS did send out of his office when HS already had been at home. It isn't known, who got the email neither the content of the email. It isn't known if somebody from Apotex answered.
What if BS with family determined on calling a certain person when ever the death of himself or Honey would occur. That person had knowledge to inform the children in an arranged way. IMO MOO also, of course.

How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star
Honey left Apotex first, before 5 p.m. Barry, founder of the generic drug giant, left in the early evening. His last known email from his Apotex account was sent between 6:30 p.m. and 8:30 p.m., sources at Apotex say. The Star could not determine the contents of the email, but it was business-related. The Star could not determine if anyone at Apotex responded to the email.

What do you think about some contract with a helper who knew how to enter the home and who knew how to do a staging?

I would still like to know why Barry would ask his cousin to get Honey whacked and why the cousin did not report this and wear a wire to bust Barry.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I would still like to know why Barry would ask his cousin to get Honey whacked and why the cousin did not report this and wear a wire to bust Barry.

KW said it wouldn't have been easy to say "no" to someone who gave you millions (or similar wording, don't find link).

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I would still like to know why Barry would ask his cousin to get Honey whacked and why the cousin did not report this and wear a wire to bust Barry.

Do you believe Kerry Winter when he says Barry asked him to do that?

 

[human]

Do you believe Kerry Winter when he says Barry asked him to do that?

I find it hard to believe. I wonder why Barry would think KW had the resources to find a killer and also trust him to keep his mouth shut about such a crime.

 

[SeesSeas]

I would still like to know why Barry would ask his cousin to get Honey whacked and why the cousin did not report this and wear a wire to bust Barry.

In the 1990's is when Kerry is now stating that Barry told Kerry he wanted his wife whacked. Their relationship was good then and hadn't soured yet. Perhaps there was banter that was taken out of context?

Kerry uses the word "whack" more than anyone I know. Maybe it's a Canadian thing?
whack his wife
whack of dough

Emphasis by me:

MANDEL: Barry Sherman’s cousin Kerry Winter suffered nervous breakdown, sister-in-law tells court
Winter then launched into a series of shocking allegations in the wake of the slayings, including that Sherman twice asked him in the 1990s to “whack” his wife. He later failed a lie detector test about his outlandish accusation.

Toronto billionaire’s orphaned cousins seek piece of Apotex fortune | The Star
Later in their lives, the siblings had relatively stable relationships with Sherman, which crumbled prior to launching their lawsuit against him 10 years ago, Winter said. He mentioned there was a time he could walk right by security at Apotex and head into Sherman’s office.

“I look at my life today and I feel very strongly that if I ran into a whack of dough, my life really wouldn’t change that much,” Winter said.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

if I ran into a whack of dough

Sorry, but what does it mean?
(Used the new function of Copy/Paste/Reply - hey, that's easy!)

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Sorry, but what does it mean?
(Used the new function of Copy/Paste/Reply - hey, that's easy!)

In that sentence, ‘whack’ means ‘a lot’ or ‘large amount’.

‘Whack’ can mean kill, hit and a few other things.

It’s slang. I’m Canadian and other than KW, I can’t recall someone using that word.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

In the 1990's is when Kerry is now stating that Barry told Kerry he wanted his wife whacked. Their relationship was good then and hadn't soured yet. Perhaps there was banter that was taken out of context?

Kerry uses the word "whack" more than anyone I know. Maybe it's a Canadian thing?
whack his wife
whack of dough

Emphasis by me:

MANDEL: Barry Sherman’s cousin Kerry Winter suffered nervous breakdown, sister-in-law tells court
Winter then launched into a series of shocking allegations in the wake of the slayings, including that Sherman twice asked him in the 1990s to “whack” his wife. He later failed a lie detector test about his outlandish accusation.

Toronto billionaire’s orphaned cousins seek piece of Apotex fortune | The Star
Later in their lives, the siblings had relatively stable relationships with Sherman, which crumbled prior to launching their lawsuit against him 10 years ago, Winter said. He mentioned there was a time he could walk right by security at Apotex and head into Sherman’s office.

“I look at my life today and I feel very strongly that if I ran into a whack of dough, my life really wouldn’t change that much,” Winter said.

It’s interesting that you showed that that word is part of KW’s vernacular. Barry Sherman was known for correcting people’s grammar. I find it hard to imagine him using that word.

 

[andreww]

In that sentence, ‘whack’ means ‘a lot’ or ‘large amount’.

‘Whack’ can mean kill, hit and a few other things.

It’s slang. I’m Canadian and other than KW, I can’t recall someone using that word.

Come on, "whacked" is a common mafia term, and if you've ever watched a movie or show like The Godfather, Goodfellows, or The Sopranos, you've heard this term a million times.

 

[andreww]

I would still like to know why Barry would ask his cousin to get Honey whacked and why the cousin did not report this and wear a wire to bust Barry.

Possibly he didn't take it seriously? Thought Barry was kidding? Who knows? Not sure why he would make something like that up, and didn't a friend of Kerry's state that he had mentioned it to him way back when it happened? Or am I getting my facts mixed up?

 

[andreww]

Here it is...

The Fifth Estate interviewed two of Winter's friends who said they were told of the plot two decades ago, but neither had any direct knowledge of such a plot ever happening.

So my question is, if at the time Kerry and Barry were on good terms, why would Kerry concoct the story way back then? Its easy to point a finger now and say that he is just bitter, but way back then what motive would he have had?

Barry Sherman's cousin fails lie detector test over allegation of plot to kill Honey Sherman | CBC News

 

[MistyWaters]

Here it is...

The Fifth Estate interviewed two of Winter's friends who said they were told of the plot two decades ago, but neither had any direct knowledge of such a plot ever happening.

So my question is, if at the time Kerry and Barry were on good terms, why would Kerry concoct the story way back then? Its easy to point a finger now and say that he is just bitter, but way back then what motive would he have had?

Barry Sherman's cousin fails lie detector test over allegation of plot to kill Honey Sherman | CBC News

Just to point out I don’t think anyone is pointing fingers and suggesting Kerry is bitter. It was his rational as stated -

“Winter told The Fifth Estate he was going public now with the allegations because he wanted to "hurt" Barry Sherman's legacy.

I was betrayed. My cousin hurt me, and now I want to hurt him.- Kerry Winter”
Barry Sherman's cousin fails lie detector test over allegation of plot to kill Honey Sherman | CBC News

And from the same link:
“Winter told Galianos on camera that he "embellished" part of the scheme. He also said he fabricated other parts of the story.”

Its confusing how two friends could collaborate a story, parts of which Winter later admitted were embellished or fabricated. I don’t think we know which parts he’s referring to.