Did John Ramsey carry the body to contaminate the scene or not?

[BoldBear]

[snip]

The perfect explanation for a RN and a body in the wc just eludes me. :facepalm: As, imo, it did the Rs.

I spent a couple of years writing a novel that focused on the hours of when they got home, their past, and what happened the next morning. It's a theory and I probably didn't tell the story very well. I only asked two people to have a look at it and since they haven't had anything to say, I assume that I've completely missed the mark. I went in with every little crazy detail, but the root of the theory is fairly good. I'll post the heart of that theory soon so you can decide for yourself.

The first chapter's a snooze and if I ever tried to market the book, I'd have to add a four paragraph gimmick to hook the reader at the beginning.

If any active members would like to take a look at it, I can send a PDF copy through email. The only thing I ask is for you not to share it with others and to be honest about it. Don't spare my feelings. Tell me it sucks and this is why. I won't hold it against you. This was my first attempt at fiction after being away from it for 20 years. If you're interested, send me a private message with an email address. If you have a different way to receive to document that assures your privacy, let me know how that can be done and I'll try to the other method.

The theory actually answers some of the questions you asked. I get carried away an throw everything in so I guess the heart of the theory gets missed.

 

[UKGuy]

You all have great points. The most desirable and the most elusive is to know with certainty what was in the parents’ minds that morning. Oh well, here’s my 2 cents.

Did they want the police to discover her? Well, certainly if they called at 5:56 am and the BPD was there at 5:59 am, the plan that they called authorities and, because of their call, JonBenét was killed no longer works. (Hey it’s what the RN says.) It no longer works because, as Kolar points out ‘tongue in cheek’, the kidnapper had to still be around hiding somewhere when he overheard the frantic 911 phone call from Patsy and made a rash judgment to kill JB after that call. That plan would have worked out much better if the police had actually left. So, if that was the Rs’ idea, it was clearly foiled by the police not leaving.

BTW, and maybe it’s just me, but from a superficial view of what happened that morning, it looks like someone needed to rethink the situation. Since the police did not leave after the 10 am hour passed, JR was left no choice but to do a bit more staging, just in case.

What would have happened if the BPD had found her? :noooo:Given that both Patsy and JR were extremely talented at ‘dancing’ their explanations, for a time the story seemed to pivot to an explanation in which someone had targeted JR and decided to hurt him in the worst possible way. As Patsy remarked on LKL, the RN was a ruse to throw off the police. That kidnapper-killer person entered the home to kill JB. This is a great example of Patsy and JR winging their explanations, because JR has a slightly different take on the same LKL program. He calls it a kidnapping gone wrong.

Unfortunately, neither JR nor Patsy could come up with a solid name of someone who wished to destroy this family. So it’s a little problematic. Surely JR would know who hated his guts that much?

Did they hide her and intend, by jerry-rigging the lights in the wc, that she would not be found? Yep, it is actually possible JR or PR was an idiot in this situation, perhaps figuring she was so well hidden no one would find her even with flashlights. They did want a ‘proper’ funeral.

And then the heavens open. :dance:Finally, a wonderful break when Lou Smit is hired to investigate. He found the presence of an Intruder with evidence of a broken window, a suitcase, a Styrofoam peanut. Gone is the explanation of an inside job. Gone is the idea of someone who knew JR killing JB in order to hurt him. Now there is a perfect explanation: An Intruder ('pedophile') completes the kidnapping gone wrong storyline. The RN is justified. But, as Cyril Wecht points out, the Intruder did make a big mistake: He forgot to remove the body which could have been ransomed.

The perfect explanation for a RN and a body in the wc just eludes me. :facepalm: As, imo, it did the Rs.

Did they want the police to discover her?
Most definitely no ! Otherwise they would have left JonBenet as either found lying on the basement floor or on her bed!

IMO the RN has not been authored simply to tell the police JonBenet has been kidnapped, no RN and no JonBenet, patently must mean she had been abducted.

What would have happened if the BPD had found her?
Depends where they found her, e.g. crawl-space, wine-cellar, washing-machine, ect.

Because Fleet White has maintained his silence on events that morning I think he knows something that contradicts JR's version of events, it just might be he thinks JR moved JonBenet either to the wine-cellar or inside the wine-cellar as he missed her when he looked that morning, with a white-blanket on the floor and ambient light behind him, FW missed what JR saw immediately later that day.

If standard procedure had been used and all three R's had been arrested and booked into different rooms for interview, we would not be where we are today.

Did they hide her and intend, by jerry-rigging the lights in the wc, that she would not be found?
Fleet White might know the answer, its possible, since JonBenet as positioned does not seem to play any functional role. JR only finds JonBenet once he has worked out the situation.

And then the heavens open.
Yes, with help from the power of prayer. Shows you how sharp JR is, he likely made similar adjustments prior to finding JonBenet.

The perfect explanation for a RN and a body in the wc just eludes me. As, imo, it did the Rs.

It never, ever eluded the Ramsey's it was a core part of their staging and it worked, thats why nobody has seen the inside of a court to this day !

 

[questfortrue]

~RSBM~
It never, ever eluded the Ramsey's it was a core part of their staging and it worked, thats why nobody has seen the inside of a court to this day !

Of course! Because dozens of conflicting statements always says “ innocence” to the authorities.

 

[Chelly]

You make some good points here. Admittedly, I've always believed that the plan originally, was to dispose of the body after police left the scene. The cops were called because they couldn't spare another minute without making the call right then, as their scheduled flight demanded; and there was no time left to dispose of the body by the time they needed to call police without arousing suspicion. The fact she was so "bundled" like a "papoose" always made me wonder if perhaps she was bundled like that with transport purposes in mind.

yes , yes and yes

 

[DeDee]

I spent a couple of years writing a novel that focused on the hours of when they got home, their past, and what happened the next morning. It's a theory and I probably didn't tell the story very well. I only asked two people to have a look at it and since they haven't had anything to say, I assume that I've completely missed the mark. I went in with every little crazy detail, but the root of the theory is fairly good. I'll post the heart of that theory soon so you can decide for yourself.

The first chapter's a snooze and if I ever tried to market the book, I'd have to add a four paragraph gimmick to hook the reader at the beginning.

If any active members would like to take a look at it, I can send a PDF copy through email. The only thing I ask is for you not to share it with others and to be honest about it. Don't spare my feelings. Tell me it sucks and this is why. I won't hold it against you. This was my first attempt at fiction after being away from it for 20 years. If you're interested, send me a private message with an email address. If you have a different way to receive to document that assures your privacy, let me know how that can be done and I'll try to the other method.

The theory actually answers some of the questions you asked. I get carried away an throw everything in so I guess the heart of the theory gets missed.

Of course, I am most interested in receiving any portion of the book you've written regarding JonBenet's murder. Send any and all chapters that you wish, Thank you, BoldBear.

 

[TeaTime]

FW didn't 'miss' anything. IMHO, the body wasn't there when he looked.

I will bet that seeing JR "find" her made all the hair on the back of his neck stand up. Further, I will bet that he knew right then and there that something really evil happened IN the family, not to them.

Can you imagine what was going through his mind?

Every first responding officer knew instinctively that this was not a kidnapping and that this child was already dead. The FBI told Boulder PD brass the same. Within minutes of reporting the 'kidnapping' all of LE were looking for a dead child and into the eyes of her killer and they KNEW it.

And if you look closely at that brief snippet of their interview, you will also see that JR had nothing to do with the murder and PR is up to her eyes in it. Nodding his head is just the response to his mental thought "here it comes, I was expecting this question." PRs tells are obvious.

 

[silverwolf109]

Mmmm...dunno....not necessarily to contaminate the scene(forensics)...IMO to undo the bad staging a bit?he panicked

I keep thinking that, in light of his earlier trip downstairs, that his real intention was to destroy the crime scene (position of her body, etc.) so the police would have an even harder time in solving the case.

 

[silverwolf109]

Of course, I am most interested in receiving any portion of the book you've written regarding JonBenet's murder. Send any and all chapters that you wish, Thank you, BoldBear.

I would like to read what you have to say on that. That particular aspect of the case is where I have always had the most trouble figuring out...too much blank space.

 

[silverwolf109]

FW didn't 'miss' anything. IMHO, the body wasn't there when he looked.

I will bet that seeing JR "find" her made all the hair on the back of his neck stand up. Further, I will bet that he knew right then and there that something really evil happened IN the family, not to them.

Can you imagine what was going through his mind?

Every first responding officer knew instinctively that this was not a kidnapping and that this child was already dead. The FBI told Boulder PD brass the same. Within minutes of reporting the 'kidnapping' all of LE were looking for a dead child and into the eyes of her killer and they KNEW it.

And if you look closely at that brief snippet of their interview, you will also see that JR had nothing to do with the murder and PR is up to her eyes in it. Nodding his head is just the response to his mental thought "here it comes, I was expecting this question." PRs tells are obvious.

One thing that has always bothered me is that John supposedly told John Andrew and Melinda that he found JonBenet's body about 11am, which coincides with his trip down to the basement, yet the official time was supposedly around 1pm.

 

[silverwolf109]

Yes. This the whole issue. That the police should have done a thorough search looking for evidence of the kidnapping, every room should have been searched and sealed. for CSI.. If they had done that, the police would have found her and maybe we would have more evidence from the intruder.

Agreed...big mistakes by Boulder PD right from the start. Failure to clear the house of unnecessary people, failure to separate John and Patsy to question them, failure to treat the whole house as a possible crime scene, failure to search the whole house to verify that JonBenet was not there, failure to keep track of the people that were there, despite the lack of extra help, failure to keep the support people from cleaning up the fingerprint powder remnants. I have never been in law enforcement, but even I know the basic steps of protecting a crime scene and witness separation.

 

[silverwolf109]

I understand what your saying, those behaviors aren't what I was specifically speaking of. I was thinking more about John wanting to leave the state, had "an important meeting to attend" after he found her body. and Patsy after hearing Fleet screaming "call an ambulance"! Never got up from her seat. Everyone else came running. Not Patsy.

Neither woke up Burke to see if he heard or saw anything. They didn't even wake him to see if he was still alive!!!

My thoughts on behavior in this case don't really center too much on the Ramseys on the first day, although I do find it odd the way things played out when the kidnapping phone call never took place, John and Patsy's general behavior (him being relatively cool, calm and collected, her peaking through her fingers while supposedly crying, the actions taken when the body was found, and so on. My alarm bells center on the hiring of attorneys that very same day, the stonewalling that took place regarding police interviews, yet going on CNN four or five days after the murder, and all the different times John and Patsy changed their stories.

 

[TeaTime]

Did JR consciously contaminate the crime scene? Well, one thing I know for certain is something I posted somewhere here and that is that JR and PR were both very well aware of fiber evidence being used to solve crimes. I, and they, lived in Atlanta at the same time and it was then that Wayne Williams was killing children. When it came to trial, the evidence used against him to connect two of the victims (both adults found floating in the Chatahoochee River) to him was FIBER evidence. Tiny little fibers stuck to the bodies matched the carpeting in his home.

The Rs would have known all about tiny fibers. It was a landmark case using fiber evidence and was ALL over the news everywhere and everyone in Atlanta knew about it.

Coincidentally, both JR and PR dressed that morning in the same clothes they wore the night before and both of them cuddled with, touched and laid over the body. Bingo. Explanation of fibers found on the body. The panty fibers are less easy to explain but Lin Wood thwarted all investigation into the JR fibers in the crotch of the panties and very little was established about PR's jacket fibers entwined in the garrotte.

 

[UKGuy]

Did JR consciously contaminate the crime scene? Well, one thing I know for certain is something I posted somewhere here and that is that JR and PR were both very well aware of fiber evidence being used to solve crimes. I, and they, lived in Atlanta at the same time and it was then that Wayne Williams was killing children. When it came to trial, the evidence used against him to connect two of the victims (both adults found floating in the Chatahoochee River) to him was FIBER evidence. Tiny little fibers stuck to the bodies matched the carpeting in his home.

The Rs would have known all about tiny fibers. It was a landmark case using fiber evidence and was ALL over the news everywhere and everyone in Atlanta knew about it.

Coincidentally, both JR and PR dressed that morning in the same clothes they wore the night before and both of them cuddled with, touched and laid over the body. Bingo. Explanation of fibers found on the body. The panty fibers are less easy to explain but Lin Wood thwarted all investigation into the JR fibers in the crotch of the panties and very little was established about PR's jacket fibers entwined in the garrotte.

TeaTime,
The fiber evidence can be explained away as cross-trnsfer. Both parents said they had contact with JonBenet putting her to bed, so there is no real advantage gained by Patsy or John touching JonBenet deceased, other than show?

The curious detail is that JR's alleged fibers in JonBenet's underwear or Patsy's jacket fibers embedded into the ligature knotting patently never arrived via cross-transfer.

Just an aspect of the case, alike the size-12's, which has been glossed over. JR might accuse me of disrespecting his relationship with JonBenet !

I'm satisfied that JR tweaked the forensic evidence down in the basement, he might be responsible for the barbie nightgown arriving in the wine-cellar?

Think about his remarks regarding the chair blocking the door left behind by the clever intruder, the broken window or the samsonite suitcase which JR says he moved, why? From one empty room to another empty room.

Nice one John, he was busy cleaning up whilst Patsy was giving a bravura performance upstairs.

The thing is nobody found JonBenet until John decided to look, not even Fleet White saw JonBenet, never mind smelt her. For John to see JonBenet instantly with his bad eyesight, when Fleet White with good eyesight missed her, does not compute as the robot said.

Bottom line is JR can only know where to go and look because he has advance knowledge, i.e. he never went back upstairs, he headed down to the basement.

My money is on JR likely moving JonBenet to the wine-cellar, this is probably why she was wrapped in the blanket, an artificial barrier, JR never knew that Fleet White had already looked in the wine-cellar, further boosted by the switches being in place, this would have given him the misplaced confidence to further contaminate the blanket and JonBenet with his fibers and offer an explanation for any cross-transfer that happened when he relocated JonBenet.

.

 

[TeaTime]

Tomato, tomahto.

 

[TeaTime]

BTW UK Guy - the Rs could not have explained some of the fibers by claiming that they were transferred the night before, such as the ones in the garrotte. JR is sneaky, a liar and a conniver and PR defended him no matter what - even if it was against her own interests. They were pathological together. I have some knowledge of these 2 that doesn't come from this case or from books or interviews and I would put nothing past them - nothing.

 

[UKGuy]

BTW UK Guy - the Rs could not have explained some of the fibers by claiming that they were transferred the night before, such as the ones in the garrotte. JR is sneaky, a liar and a conniver and PR defended him no matter what - even if it was against her own interests. They were pathological together. I have some knowledge of these 2 that doesn't come from this case or from books or interviews and I would put nothing past them - nothing.

TeaTime,
In court they would have suggested their fibers went from themselves to JonBenet then from there to the Intruder and back to JonBenet, i.e. cross-transfer. All nonsense of course, but its a defence none the less.

If they were fiber aware why did they not wear some other clothing, or none, just for the staging aspect? The staging does not really work if we know JR's fibers are on JonBenet's genitals and Patsy's fibers are in the ligature.

How come this was never followed up, its like a smoking gun demonstrating patent staging and that the case is RDI all day long?

John, Patsy and Burke all colluded postmortem to fake JonBenet's death. The $64,000 question is was she already dead by the time the parents staged the wine-cellar?

.

 

[Cottonstar]

TeaTime,
In court they would have suggested their fibers went from themselves to JonBenet then from there to the Intruder and back to JonBenet, i.e. cross-transfer. All nonsense of course, but its a defence none the less.

If they were fiber aware why did they not wear some other clothing, or none, just for the staging aspect? The staging does not really work if we know JR's fibers are on JonBenet's genitals and Patsy's fibers are in the ligature.

How come this was never followed up, its like a smoking gun demonstrating patent staging and that the case is RDI all day long?

John, Patsy and Burke all colluded postmortem to fake JonBenet's death. The $64,000 question is was she already dead by the time the parents staged the wine-cellar?

.

But, of course.

 

[southernmimi]

Did JR consciously contaminate the crime scene? Well, one thing I know for certain is something I posted somewhere here and that is that JR and PR were both very well aware of fiber evidence being used to solve crimes. I, and they, lived in Atlanta at the same time and it was then that Wayne Williams was killing children. When it came to trial, the evidence used against him to connect two of the victims (both adults found floating in the Chatahoochee River) to him was FIBER evidence. Tiny little fibers stuck to the bodies matched the carpeting in his home.

The Rs would have known all about tiny fibers. It was a landmark case using fiber evidence and was ALL over the news everywhere and everyone in Atlanta knew about it.

Coincidentally, both JR and PR dressed that morning in the same clothes they wore the night before and both of them cuddled with, touched and laid over the body. Bingo. Explanation of fibers found on the body. The panty fibers are less easy to explain but Lin Wood thwarted all investigation into the JR fibers in the crotch of the panties and very little was established about PR's jacket fibers entwined in the garrotte.[/QUOTE

Also, very hard to explain fibers from Patsy's clothing caught underneath the tape covering her daughter's mouth. One of the reasons some of us are still angry at the way this case was handled.

 

[discretions]

TeaTime— thank you for the information about Wayne Williams and the implication that the Ramseys would have been "fiber-aware", this is very interesting to me and I think it just adds to the heaps of evidence shadowing over the Ramseys. It's so refreshing to join this forum and see discussion that doesn't shy away from JDI like it's the ultimate taboo in this case. I personally think that given the circumstantial evidence, the contents of the ransom note, the 911 call, the prior sexual abuse, his bizarre behavior, his known history of infidelity (consummate lying), and the fiber evidence, John, and potentially John working alone (though I think Patsy helped cover for him by backing him up as others have said, though how much of John's involvement she was aware of I'm not sure) is the most likely culprit in this case.

I don't doubt that his "discovery" of the body was his way of maintaining as much control as possible over that event once he realized it was likely to happen sooner or later, and that the body would possibly be discovered by a police officer who would notice the obvious staging right away. He went straight for the basement, he knew where to look. That girl was never missing. And in the process, he developed a rock-solid alibi for why his fibers and other DNA would be found on the body.

 

[TeaTime]

One thing that has always bothered me is that John supposedly told John Andrew and Melinda that he found JonBenet's body about 11am, which coincides with his trip down to the basement, yet the official time was supposedly around 1pm.

silverwolf - These little errors in details seem normal until one realizes that he was a Navy Pilot, a techie and President of a Billion dollar company. He would be watching the clocks and his wrist watch constantly. So the slip is relevant, it's Freudian.