UK -Major incident declared - UK anti-terror police investigating possible nerve agent attack, 2018

But using a gun, would risk being caught, especially if the Skipals were usually out in public places, or at home where neighbours might hear gunshots and see the killers leave or describe their vehicle. They would also have to get a gun through customs or arrange with a contact in the UK.

I guess there are other more messy ways to kill, like stabbing or strangling, but if they wanted to kill both of the them, perhaps not as easy as just leaving some noxious substance somewhere and then taking off before anyone is aware of what is happening. It also spreads fear and uncertainty, which is what they want.
If you don't want anybody to hear a gunshot, you use a silencer. Skripals didn't have any bodyguards, one was an older man and the other was a smallish female. So doubtful they could have put up much of a fight (especially if there was a "team of assassins.")
It would have been a lot easier to kill (if that was the goal) using conventional methods. As it is, the method of assassination failed, both Skripals are alive.
 
What a bizarre theory about team of assassins using the flat as a safe house, to say the least.
The team of six assassins living in low income housing which isn't very close to the Srkpal's house that they could watch Skripals movement from there? And then leaving this bottle in the flat, which nobody had noticed for months?
Where is the Skripals house? Is it in Amesbury?
 
If it were planted in her luggage, how in the world would have it ended up where it presumably did? This was a complete speculation, they also speculated poison was in the cereal, etc. Then they claimed somebody put it onto Skripals door knob, which is as far as I know is the latest theory.

Well if we knew how it ended up where it did, it would be case closed. Perhaps now they know it was in a perfume bottle, YS may remember something too. Nobody has a clue ( or they're just not saying).

Nothing yet has come from official sources confirming what CR's brother told the media so it is all still speculation AFAIK.
 
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Do you have a link for the actual address? DS lived in Salisbury in John Baker House, which has been evacuated, so the perfume bottle/poison had to be there at some point too.

Salisbury, scratchcards and sausage: the quiet life of Sergei Skripal

I don't need a link as I have found the above link with a map and the road that the Skripals lived in.

Distance from Christie Miller Road to John Baker House is only 1.7 miles by vehicle, less as the crow flies. Distance from John Baker House to Zizzi's restaurant 300 yards.
 
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Whether tied to the Russians or not (afaik, no hard evidence, per NPR broadcast I heard yesterday), the slapdash, sloppy and careless handling of the poisoning agent (if that is, in fact the case) can be compared to the mission to assassinate Alexander Litvinenko in 2006.
They left polonium trails all over London, and apparently disposed of "extra" radioactive materials by tossing them down the drain :eek: in hotels!

This is a fabulous podcast episode that gives a blow-by-blow of the bungling Russian agents' movements (and subsequent physical evidence trails). It's from"The Murder Mile True Crime Podcast." I recommend this podcast to any true crime fans who appreciate a deep dive and an engaging narrative style.

For a quick overview, scroll down to "Polonium Trails" in this wiki article:
Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko - Wikipedia

That podcast was a fascinating listen. I do remember the polonium being left in various places, but I didn't know all those details.
 
Do you think it could be a copycat looking for attention?Im not sure how easy it is to get the poison they used but Im sure the investigation will say for sure which one was involved.It also could be someone who is trying to make the first poisoning look like it wasnt just directed at the father in daughter involved.Doubt then might be raised that it could be someone from the UK instead of being directed from Russia.LOL I think I should have read all the posts first.I m doing things a little backwards...Im new here...

Your posts are making good suggestions. The thread may make more sense reading it backwards.
 
Something else that stands out from the podcast about the poisoning of Litvinenko.

Three times the same poisoners were sent to the UK to poison the same man, each time with a fresh vial of the same poison.

Why?

Wouldn't it have made more sense to send someone else to do the job and use something different?

It almost feels like a 'game' where each target assigned a particular assassin and a particular mode of attack. This might help to explain why there are so many different modes of attack being used, and why Litvinenko had three attempts by the same people.

If that's correct, Skripal could have been assigned novichok because of where he lived, near Porton Down.

I don't even get any sense that Litvinenko's assassins knew what they were using was radioactive.

I can't quite understand how the person who contaminated the Skripals managed to get away without contaminating themselves. What we have right now (albeit I'm a few pages behind) is a closed perfume bottle that was discarded well-sealed, or the person who dropped it would have been at risk. That person might have been using gloves, it was cold enough weather to wear gloves. But if its a closed vial of perfume, how do Dawn and Charlie end up with it on their hands? Did Dawn open the bottle, sniff it, dab some on her finger and find no scent, and then Charlie holds her contaminated hand when she falls ill?
 
Something else that stands out from the podcast about the poisoning of Litvinenko.

Three times the same poisoners were sent to the UK to poison the same man, each time with a fresh vial of the same poison.

Why?

Wouldn't it have made more sense to send someone else to do the job and use something different?

It almost feels like a 'game' where each target assigned a particular assassin and a particular mode of attack. This might help to explain why there are so many different modes of attack being used, and why Litvinenko had three attempts by the same people.

If that's correct, Skripal could have been assigned novichok because of where he lived, near Porton Down.

I don't even get any sense that Litvinenko's assassins knew what they were using was radioactive.

I can't quite understand how the person who contaminated the Skripals managed to get away without contaminating themselves. What we have right now (albeit I'm a few pages behind) is a closed perfume bottle that was discarded well-sealed, or the person who dropped it would have been at risk. That person might have been using gloves, it was cold enough weather to wear gloves. But if its a closed vial of perfume, how do Dawn and Charlie end up with it on their hands? Did Dawn open the bottle, sniff it, dab some on her finger and find no scent, and then Charlie holds her contaminated hand when she falls ill?
It's possible that the person who poisoned the Skripals didn't poison himself or herself because this person pre-administered the antidote to himself. Atropine, the antidote, and the long-acting form of it aren't dangerous Millions of people take such anticholinergic drugs everyday for their Parkinson's, spasms, allergies (Benadryl) and psychiatric meds (Anafranil, Thorazine, Cogentin).
 
It's possible that the person who poisoned the Skripals didn't poison himself or herself because this person pre-administered the antidote to himself. Atropine, the antidote, and the long-acting form of it aren't dangerous Millions of people take such anticholinergic drugs everyday for their Parkinson's, spasms, allergies (Benadryl) and psychiatric meds (Anafranil, Thorazine, Cogentin).
There has been a lot of conflicting information about novichok, but supposedly there is no good antidote against it. So not sure how the poisoner would avoid getting sick him or herself. I doubt they are walking around in protective gear with a gas mask on.
"Novichok is so deadly in part because it is "essentially engineered to prevent the antidote from working," Chai said."
Novichok: How to treat poisoning by Soviet-era nerve gas - CNN
 
But using a gun, would risk being caught, especially if the Skipals were usually out in public places, or at home where neighbours might hear gunshots and see the killers leave or describe their vehicle. They would also have to get a gun through customs or arrange with a contact in the UK.

I guess there are other more messy ways to kill, like stabbing or strangling, but if they wanted to kill both of the them, perhaps not as easy as just leaving some noxious substance somewhere and then taking off before anyone is aware of what is happening. It also spreads fear and uncertainty, which is what they want.
All guns can be taken apart into many pieces because they must be cleaned with a carbon solvent to remove the gunpowder residue which builds up after firing the gun. Although handguns are illegal in the UK, getting pieces of a disassembled gun into the UK must not difficult. The London Metropolitan police recorded 2,542 gun crime offenses in 2017 and gun crime is dramatically increasing.
London mayor urged to tackle gun crime as offences rise
Gun crime in London rises by 42%
 
There has been a lot of conflicting information about novichok, but supposedly there is no good antidote against it. So not sure how the poisoner would avoid getting sick him or herself. I doubt they are walking around in protective gear with a gas mask on.
"Novichok is so deadly in part because it is "essentially engineered to prevent the antidote from working," Chai said."
Novichok: How to treat poisoning by Soviet-era nerve gas - CNN
Anticholinergics have been extensively studied as the antidote. 2-PAM is a long-acting anticholinergic that is very effective IF given quickly after exposure.
Nerve Agent Treatment - Autoinjector Instructions - CHEMM
 
Here is an article about Russian scientist who was exposed to Novichok during an accident, received atropine (antidote) and still had a lot of problems. So how did the poisoner avoid the same fate as his victims? If he wore protective gear, gas mask, etc, presumably people would have noticed.
"But the once vibrant researcher was never the same, according to Mirzayanov: “He wasn’t capable of functioning normally afterwards.” Zheleznyakov reportedly suffered from chronic weakness, epilepsy, liver problems, and difficulty focusing, among other maladies, before his death five years later."
Soviet Scientist Who Developed Novichok Poison Used on Sergei Skripal: ‘I’m Sorry’
 
Here is an article about Russian scientist who was exposed to Novichok during an accident, received atropine (antidote) and still had a lot of problems. So how did the poisoner avoid the same fate as his victims? If he wore protective gear, gas mask, etc, presumably people would have noticed.
"But the once vibrant researcher was never the same, according to Mirzayanov: “He wasn’t capable of functioning normally afterwards.” Zheleznyakov reportedly suffered from chronic weakness, epilepsy, liver problems, and difficulty focusing, among other maladies, before his death five years later."
Soviet Scientist Who Developed Novichok Poison Used on Sergei Skripal: ‘I’m Sorry’
Keep reading on Zheleznyakov. The hood (vent) where he was working with a large amount of Novichok failed.
Research Russian health care. Hint: It's primitive. Although articles state Zheleznyakov was given atropine, he may have been given a grossly inadequate amount or an expired dose.

Although Zheleznyakov was stated to have died from liver cirrhosis, it's impossible to determine if that was caused by Novichok exposure as liver cirrhosis (from alcohol consumption) mortality rate in Russia is the highest in the world.
 
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Keep reading on Zheleznyakov. The hood (vent) where he was working with a large amount of Novichok failed. Research Russian health care. Hint: It's primitive.
Although articles state Zheleznyakov was given atropine, he may have been given a grossly inadequate amount or an expired dose.

Although Zheleznyakov was stated to have died from liver cirrhosis, it's impossible to determine if that was caused by Novichok exposure as liver cirrhosis (from alcohol consumption) mortality rate in Russia is the highest in the world.
Well, the poisoner here had no hood and was supposedly going around spraying things with a perfume bottle? Look at all the workers involved in investigation/clean up. If it were so easy, why don't they just get an antidote instead of donning all the protective gear they are wearing? These investigators are photographed in what looks like space suits. Poisoner couldn't have gone around in protective gear without being noticed.
 
Anticholinergics have been extensively studied as the antidote. 2-PAM is a long-acting anticholinergic that is very effective IF given quickly after exposure.
Nerve Agent Treatment - Autoinjector Instructions - CHEMM

There's some info here in the use of oximes as antidotes for nerve agent poisoning

Oxime - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

My non-expert thoughts are that it doesn't sound like the sort of thing you want to inject into someone who hasn't been exposed, and I think it would probably be best if the person exposed and given the antidote was treated in a hospital setting. It seems to me that the dosage of the 'antidote' would need adapting to the level of nerve agent in the body, and also a lot might depend on the individual's own physiology as I read somewhere that some people's bodies can naturally remove the poison from the system far faster than others and that helps them survive.

I would suggest a delivery system that severely limits the risk to the person delivering the nerve agent. And I think the person who makes the delivery is probably not the person who made the concoction any more than those men who poisoned Litvinenko made the polonium 210 themselves.
 
Well, the poisoner here had no hood and was supposedly going around spraying things with a perfume bottle? Look at all the workers involved in investigation/clean up. If it were so easy, why don't they just get an antidote instead of donning all the protective gear they are wearing? These investigators are photographed in what looks like space suits. Poisoner couldn't have gone around in protective gear without being noticed.

Not all perfume bottles have atomizers in them, some perfumes you dab on instead of spraying. I don't think a spray sounds like the ideal delivery system, especially not if it was an open-air environment (if the door knob on Skripal's house was contaminated by the perp).

Even if something is inside a perfume bottle, it doesn't necessarily follow that the liquid inside is the consistency of water...it could be in a gel form, which ought to avoid some of the perils of aerosol contamination to the person doing the delivering.
 

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