Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[Deleted member 102539]

Btw:
Hyderabad-based Aurobindo Pharma has inked a definitive agreement with Canadian pharmaceutical firm Apotex to take over its commercial operations in five European countries.
The two pharma players signed an all-cash deal amounting to 74 million euros, under which Aurobindo's step-down subsidiary Agile Pharma B V will acquire commercial businesses of Apotex and some supporting infrastructure, according to a regulatory filing by the Indian pharma major. The deal is expected to be finalised in three to six months.
Aurobindo takes over Apotex operations in five European countries for 74 million euros

 

[deugirtni]

Btw:
Hyderabad-based Aurobindo Pharma has inked a definitive agreement with Canadian pharmaceutical firm Apotex to take over its commercial operations in five European countries.
The two pharma players signed an all-cash deal amounting to 74 million euros, under which Aurobindo's step-down subsidiary Agile Pharma B V will acquire commercial businesses of Apotex and some supporting infrastructure, according to a regulatory filing by the Indian pharma major. The deal is expected to be finalised in three to six months.
Aurobindo takes over Apotex operations in five European countries for 74 million euros

According to google just now:

74,000,000 Euro equals
113,776,480.00 Canadian Dollar

 

[dotr]

Re post
February 1, 2018
SHERMAN MURDERS: Did organized crime kill billionaire?
"Jeffrey Robinson — author of Prescription Games – Money, Ego and Power Inside the Global Pharmaceutical Industry — interviewed Sherman for the 2001 book.
He said he was stunned when he heard the generic drug dynamo had been murdered.
“Barry was a strange guy but he was perfectly nice to me,” Robinson told the Toronto Sun. “At the time he was under surveillance by private detectives. Lesley Stahl was in town and tore him apart on 60 Minutes.”
However, the writer said that when Sherman said he was surprised he hadn’t been bumped off by his slew of enemies, he was being glib.
“Barry said it like, ‘I bought another baseball mitt mom,’” Robinson said. “Neither of us took it seriously and it has nothing to do with what’s going on right now.”

“Big Pharma doesn’t take out hits on people, at least not in North America,” Robinson said. “They’ll plant a kilo of cocaine in the trunk of your car or embed kiddie *advertiser censored* on your computer but they won’t murder you.”

Russian and Chinese organized crime syndicates, on the other hand, play by different rules. Robinson said some Russian hitmen “fly in on Monday, do the job, then they get on a plane and disappear on Tuesday morning.”

Another possibility that the writer entertains is that it was Honey Sherman who was the real target.

“She was well-known as a pain in the *advertiser censored*, maybe somebody had something against Honey,” Robinson said."
rbbm.

 

[drama_farmer]

^^^^ This.
Perhaps another test and pic of it (drama_farmer)?

Well, here's the thing: It was reported both were found with a man's belt looped around their neck with the end knotted around the railing, so that means it is possible, right?

 

[deugirtni]

I'd like to see that article Idlager if you have time (I couldn't find it). TIA The position that the bodies were in (almost sitting, backs to the rail and legs straight out in front of them) doesn't fit a suicide imho. From what I've garnered in various online readings, BS would have to put the belt around his neck, attach it to the rail and lean FORWARD in order to cut off his airway. The pressure from the belt has to be on the front of the neck, and not too high up under the jaw. I can't see how this is possible from a sitting position--I imagine that he would have to be on his knees leaning forward with his legs straight to the back of him.

Good point. I wasn't able to comprehend your post the first time I read it, but it seems, all things considered (the proximity of the neck loop to the railing, the height of the railing, the position of the body found semi-sitting with legs neatly out front), that it would have been impossible for BS to have even put himself into the 'noose' (even if it *was* large enough for his head to fit through, which I believe I read somewhere that the belt was looped tightly around the neck - yes found it and linked below), and ended up sitting neatly like that with legs in front of him.

"The belts were around the neck, with the end of the belt through the buckle and pulled tight."

Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star

 

[Deleted member 102539]

with the end knotted around the railing

That's the problem: it wasn't worded like that.

 

[deugirtni]

That's the problem: it wasn't worded like that.

Close enough though?
"The free end of each belt was then looped or tied around a low railing that surrounds the pool."
Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, private investigators claim | The Star

 

[MistyWaters]

In addition to the physical scene, including the way in which the bodies were positioned and how the belts were fastened in relation to the height of the railing, etc in the determination of homicide the autopsy probably also revealed that scene was not conducive to the extent or actual location of the injuries to the neck that caused death.

WARNING - this link has graphic photographs and information that might be disturbing to some.
Ligature Strangulation | Forensic Pathology Online
The copyright information is written by a doctor from India who appears to specialize in staged deaths and he says he’s assisted in forensic pathology cases around the world. A couple of interesting things he mentions - in his opinion all strangulation should be first considered a homicide (rather than suicide) unless it’s found to be that. And in a staged situation, typically the evidence indicates the murderer applies more force than neccesary and therefore injuries to the neck are greater than deaths caused by suicide.

If the Coroner’s Office sought additional expert opinion from beyond Canada, that wouldn’t surprise me either. I think the “CSI effect” sometimes sets unrealistic expectation that all our police officers, coroners and pathologists ought to know everything about everything at first glance. The identification of a staged double suicide caused by ligature strangulation is extremely uncommon, even in USA.

 

[deugirtni]

In addition to the physical scene, including the way in which the bodies were positioned and how the belts were fastened in relation to the height of the railing, etc in the determination of homicide the autopsy probably also revealed that scene was not conducive to the extent or actual location of the injuries to the neck that caused death.

WARNING - this link has graphic photographs and information that might be disturbing to some.
Ligature Strangulation | Forensic Pathology Online
The copyright information is written by a doctor from India who appears to specialize in staged deaths and he says he’s assisted in forensic pathology cases around the world. A couple of interesting things he mentions - in his opinion all strangulation should be first considered a homicide (rather than suicide) unless it’s found to be that. And in a staged situation, typically the evidence indicates the murderer applies more force than neccesary and therefore injuries to the neck are greater than deaths caused by suicide.

If the Coroner’s Office sought additional expert opinion from beyond Canada, that wouldn’t surprise me either. I think the “CSI effect” sometimes sets unrealistic expectation that all our police officers, coroners and pathologists ought to know everything about everything at first glance. The identification of a staged double suicide caused by ligature strangulation is extremely uncommon, even in USA.

Interesting that this specialist believes that all strangulation should first be considered homicide until suicide is proven (rather than the other way around). That is probably how any death should be considered, come to think of it!

It would be reassuring to think that the coroner's office might seek additional expert opinion, from within or from outside of Canada. You're right, no matter how you view this case, it is a rarity. My fear is the 'almighty ego' prevents things from getting looked at to the extent that they should, in many cases.

 

[MistyWaters]

Interesting that this specialist believes that all strangulation should first be considered homicide until suicide is proven (rather than the other way around). That is probably how any death should be considered, come to think of it!

It would be reassuring to think that the coroner's office might seek additional expert opinion, from within or from outside of Canada. You're right, no matter how you view this case, it is a rarity. My fear is the 'almighty ego' prevents things from getting looked at to the extent that they should, in many cases.

I thought that was an interesting observation regarding strangulation deaths as well.

I try to imagine the sequence of events beginning Dec 15th. Division 33 gets a 911 call. These are the same responding officers who deal with domestic violence, drunks, drugs, whacky people, rich or poor, on a regular basis. They see all sorts of horrible situations with their very own eyes that I wouldn’t want to imagine even in my worst nightmare. It’s a tough job and I have huge respect for the majority of police officers who pursue the calling for the right reasons - to support and enforce our laws, to protect us.

But do I think it was also very telling the Homicide Team was reported to have only taken the lead in the death investigation two days later, as soon as the autopsy was completed and found the cause of death for both to be ligature by neck compression. Prior to that TPS might’ve anticipated HS’s cause of death to have been different (ie head trauma)? The completion of the autopsy determining cause of death must’ve been expedited though as two days seems far sooner than most.

 

[WINDSOR]

As it appears the investigation of the murders by serial killer Bruce McArthur is winding down in Toronto, it should free up TPS resources for further investigations on the Sherman case, if required.
It is curious to me at least, that the Toronto media focused almost exclusively on McArthur who is already in custody, with little mention of the Shermans over the last few months.
Will the local media, now follow the Sherman case, or will they let it wither away, thereby taking pressure off the TPS?

 

[ldlager]

I thought that was an interesting observation regarding strangulation deaths as well.

I try to imagine the sequence of events beginning Dec 15th. Division 33 gets a 911 call. These are the same responding officers who deal with domestic violence, drunks, drugs, whacky people, rich or poor, on a regular basis. They see all sorts of horrible situations with their very own eyes that I wouldn’t want to imagine even in my worst nightmare. It’s a tough job and I have huge respect for the majority of police officers who pursue the calling for the right reasons - to support and enforce our laws, to protect us.

But do I think it was also very telling the Homicide Team was reported to have only taken the lead in the death investigation two days later, as soon as the autopsy was completed and found the cause of death for both to be ligature by neck compression. Prior to that TPS might’ve anticipated HS’s cause of death to have been different (ie head trauma)? The completion of the autopsy determining cause of death must’ve been expedited though as two days seems far sooner than most.

Thanks Misty. I remember reading that journal/analysis from Dr Rao in my early days of researching after this case hit the headlines.
It would be interesting to know if the coroner saw any evidence of knot marks or impressions around the necks of the shermans. The use of knots in the ligature seems to be a common occurrence in his findings.
IMO, I would wager that the coroner's office didn't reach out to other jurisdictions for assistance in the autopsies. Just my hunch, based on TPS behavior in other recent cases, and at times seeming to have the attitude that "we know best."
I would STILL like to know who (if anyone) arrived at the house, and who had access to the crime scene, in the approx. 45 minutes it took for those involved to contact the police.

 

[Satchie]

As it appears the investigation of the murders by serial killer Bruce McArthur is winding down in Toronto, it should free up TPS resources for further investigations on the Sherman case, if required.
It is curious to me at least, that the Toronto media focused almost exclusively on McArthur who is already in custody, with little mention of the Shermans over the last few months.
Will the local media, now follow the Sherman case, or will they let it wither away, thereby taking pressure off the TPS?

It seems perfectly understandable to me why the public, and therefore the media, would be much more interested in the McArthur case: he could be your next date, he could be your next door neighbour, he could be your garden helper, disposing of his innocent victims in your planters! Whereas the Shermans lived in a different world of the uber-wealthy, and were targetted for some unknown reason. It doesn't, at this stage, seem relevant to regular people's lives. Plus, there's nothing new to add to what we learned months ago.

 

[MistyWaters]

It seems perfectly understandable to me why the public, and therefore the media, would be much more interested in the McArthur case: he could be your next date, he could be your next door neighbour, he could be your garden helper, disposing of his innocent victims in your planters! Whereas the Shermans lived in a different world of the uber-wealthy, and were targetted for some unknown reason. It doesn't, at this stage, seem relevant to regular people's lives. Plus, there's nothing new to add to what we learned months ago.

Yes plus locating additional MacArthur victims is critical to finally providing some answers to the families who never knew what happened to their missing loved ones......considering now there’s obvious (pretrial) proof a serial killer was indeed on the lose within the gay community.

In the Sherman case, if resources are limited and maybe they’ve identified one or more suspects with grudge type motives whereby the general public is not believed to be at risk, I’d think the MacArthur case rightfully should command priority.

 

[deugirtni]

I thought that was an interesting observation regarding strangulation deaths as well.

I try to imagine the sequence of events beginning Dec 15th. Division 33 gets a 911 call. These are the same responding officers who deal with domestic violence, drunks, drugs, whacky people, rich or poor, on a regular basis. They see all sorts of horrible situations with their very own eyes that I wouldn’t want to imagine even in my worst nightmare. It’s a tough job and I have huge respect for the majority of police officers who pursue the calling for the right reasons - to support and enforce our laws, to protect us.

But do I think it was also very telling the Homicide Team was reported to have only taken the lead in the death investigation two days later, as soon as the autopsy was completed and found the cause of death for both to be ligature by neck compression. Prior to that TPS might’ve anticipated HS’s cause of death to have been different (ie head trauma)? The completion of the autopsy determining cause of death must’ve been expedited though as two days seems far sooner than most.

They said the Homicide team was 'around' in the beginning, even though they weren't officially 'handling' the case right off the bat. We have heard that TPS believed at first glance, that it was M/S, so they likely would have been guessing there was at least *one* homicide. (I believe the news reports stating TPS's theory of M/S in the beginning because they made it clear right away that they were not seeking any outside suspects.) I think the only question for them was to make sure that it wasn't a double suicide, or perhaps a natural death accompanied by a suicide. To me, it seems perfectly reasonable under the circumstances to know for sure at autopsy that death was caused by 'ligature neck compression', even though only a day or two later.

Homicide became officially involved after autopsy, once they confirmed that both had died by 'ligature neck compression', so they knew that neither one was a 'natural death', and surmised for whatever reason that HS had not committed suicide.

I wonder if it's possible that HS's facial injuries could have been caused by trying to hang her to death, as opposed to strangling her first and then hanging to make it look like suicide? The killer(s) may have realized it was going to be more feasible and look more appropriate to kill them first and *then* hang them?

I found it interesting in the site you linked, where the author states:

"Evidences of struggle are usually found, but if the person is taken unawares, and the ligature is suddenly placed around the neck and pulled tightly, the person loses consciousness quickly and is unable to offer much resistance. If the person is weak and infirm, or made unconscious by blows on the head or by intoxicating drugs and in children, there may be few or no signs of struggle. If the clothing of the deceased is torn or disarranged, it indicates that a struggle has taken place. If there is a struggle, both assailant and victim may show abrasions and contusions.

"Strangulation should be assumed to be homicidal until the contrary is shown. As a rule, the murderer uses for more force than is necessary, and as such, injuries to the deeper structures are well marked.
....
"Ligature marks produced after death do not show bruising. Either a grooved impression is seen on the skin which is not injured, or yellow or brown abrasion without signs of vital reaction. There may be ligatures or other marks around the limbs especially wrists and ankles, which may be placed either before or after death."

 

[deugirtni]

.... I wonder if it's possible that HS's facial injuries could have been caused by trying to hang her to death, as opposed to strangling her first and then hanging to make it look like suicide? The killer(s) may have realized it was going to be more feasible and look more appropriate to kill them first and *then* hang them?

Sorry, when I posted the above, I meant to say.. because perhaps it was a non professional who didn't realize how difficult it would be to hang a live person.. and maybe she fell onto her face? Then he decided to strangle first, and then hang to look like hanging? Just a thought.

ETA: Then.. perhaps when that was all done.. he hid in waiting for BS to return home, surprised him from behind, strangled, and then hung.. so no injuries for him..

 

[MistyWaters]

They said the Homicide team was 'around' in the beginning, even though they weren't officially 'handling' the case right off the bat. We have heard that TPS believed at first glance, that it was M/S, so they likely would have been guessing there was at least *one* homicide. (I believe the news reports stating TPS's theory of M/S in the beginning because they made it clear right away that they were not seeking any outside suspects.) I think the only question for them was to make sure that it wasn't a double suicide, or perhaps a natural death accompanied by a suicide. To me, it seems perfectly reasonable under the circumstances to know for sure at autopsy that death was caused by 'ligature neck compression', even though only a day or two later.

Homicide became officially involved after autopsy, once they confirmed that both had died by 'ligature neck compression', so they knew that neither one was a 'natural death', and surmised for whatever reason that HS had not committed suicide.

I wonder if it's possible that HS's facial injuries could have been caused by trying to hang her to death, as opposed to strangling her first and then hanging to make it look like suicide? The killer(s) may have realized it was going to be more feasible and look more appropriate to kill them first and *then* hang them?

<snipped in reply>

Yes, it just seems a whole lot of weight was put on an unknown officer on the scene who may have only offered his personal opinion regarding the death scene and then the media ran with it. But given the intricacies within the pathologist’s blog there’s no way by observation alone, especially by anyone untrained in the medical field, that either the cause or manner of death could be accurately determined.

My understanding is a Homicide Team takes the lead only a crime was committed that will lead to a future arrest. Investigating a crime when the perp’s death by suicide coincides with the victim seems quite pointless to me. This is one of the various reasons I think both the Coroner and TPS already had adequate evidence to support a double homicide very early on but intentionally withheld the information, allowing the glimmer of possibility to be leaked through the PI team while interviews were taking place and tips were coming forward. It gave the investigators an advantage, a window of uncertainty.

 

[MistyWaters]

Sorry, when I posted the above, I meant to say.. because perhaps it was a non professional who didn't realize how difficult it would be to hang a live person.. and maybe she fell onto her face? Then he decided to strangle first, and then hang to look like hanging? Just a thought.

ETA: Then.. perhaps when that was all done.. he hid in waiting for BS to return home, surprised him from behind, strangled, and then hung.. so no injuries for him..

I suppose the same ligature could be used to cause death by strangulation while the victims were bound and immobile on the floor, then the bodies were immediately moved and staged in an apparent suicide position. Even though HS arrived home prior to her husband, there’s no information to indicate the time of death for either other than Warmington’s repetitive reference to the following day, Dec 14th.

While I can’t find the media source, I recall someone close to them stating (my recollect, my words) it was as if the bodies were intentionally put on display in an utterly macabre manner. If display was the motivation, that act would seem to make a very loud personal statement involving deep undertones of intended humiliation, even in death.

JMO

 

[ldlager]

I suppose the same ligature could be used to cause death by strangulation while the victims were bound and immobile on the floor, then the bodies were immediately moved and staged in an apparent suicide position. Even though HS arrived home prior to her husband, there’s no information to indicate the time of death for either other than Warmington’s repetitive reference to the following day, Dec 14th.

While I can’t find the media source, I recall someone close to them stating (my recollect, my words) it was as if the bodies were intentionally put on display in an utterly macabre manner. If display was the motivation, that act would seem to make a very loud personal statement involving deep undertones of intended humiliation, even in death.

JMO

By all accounts HS was lying facedown on the floor before being suspended from the railing, as there was a pool of her blood on the floor but very little on her blouse. The amount of blood on the floor leads me to conclude she was alive while on the floor, likely unconscious for some time. Then strangled, then hung. Or maybe hung, then strangled makes more sense, and her coat was used to prevent her from struggling .

 

[MistyWaters]

By all accounts HS was lying facedown on the floor before being suspended from the railing, as there was a pool of her blood on the floor but very little on her blouse. The amount of blood on the floor leads me to conclude she was alive while on the floor, likely unconscious for some time. Then strangled, then hung. Or maybe hung, then strangled makes more sense, and her coat was used to prevent her from struggling .

Or this -
“....In Chiasson’s examination, it was determined that they were likely not strangled with the belts. Instead, they were strangled with some other type of ligature, and the belts were then put around their necks...”
How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide | The Star