Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[deugirtni]

I suppose the same ligature could be used to cause death by strangulation while the victims were bound and immobile on the floor, then the bodies were immediately moved and staged in an apparent suicide position. Even though HS arrived home prior to her husband, there’s no information to indicate the time of death for either other than Warmington’s repetitive reference to the following day, Dec 14th.

While I can’t find the media source, I recall someone close to them stating (my recollect, my words) it was as if the bodies were intentionally put on display in an utterly macabre manner. If display was the motivation, that act would seem to make a very loud personal statement involving deep undertones of intended humiliation, even in death.

JMO

The other, implied, implication that HS may have died first, although we have no info as to how much time may have elapsed in between, is if newspaper reports are believed when they stated LE's theory was that BS had murdered her and then killed himself.

 

[MistyWaters]

The other, implied, implication that HS may have died first, although we have no info as to how much time may have elapsed in between, is if newspaper reports are believed when they stated LE's theory was that BS had murdered her and then killed himself.

Right but didn’t all that speculation occur the first day, prior to the completion of the autopsies? I recall it did. Responding police officers are definitely not trained to visually determine time of death by homicide, especially upon discovery a day or two after the fact.

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, it just seems a whole lot of weight was put on an unknown officer on the scene who may have only offered his personal opinion regarding the death scene and then the media ran with it. But given the intricacies within the pathologist’s blog there’s no way by observation alone, especially by anyone untrained in the medical field, that either the cause or manner of death could be accurately determined.

My understanding is a Homicide Team takes the lead only a crime was committed that will lead to a future arrest. Investigating a crime when the perp’s death by suicide coincides with the victim seems quite pointless to me. This is one of the various reasons I think both the Coroner and TPS already had adequate evidence to support a double homicide very early on but intentionally withheld the information, allowing the glimmer of possibility to be leaked through the PI team while interviews were taking place and tips were coming forward. It gave the investigators an advantage, a window of uncertainty.

It wasn't just the one 'unknown' officer who publicly stated that no suspects were being sought on the very same day the bodies were found. And he wasn't just stating his own personal opinion. He was the officer tasked with dealing on record with the media that day on behalf of TPS - basically he gave a televised press conference on site. He did very well at not answering most of the various reporters' pressing questions, except for the fact that the public didn't need to be concerned about a killer on the loose, and no suspects were being sought. It seems police already had that theory in the bag and coordinated amongst themselves, since there were at least two that put their names to that information on that day OF.

A homicide detective also publicly stated to media that no suspects were being sought. (Nevermind all the other officers who may or may not have spoken 'off the record' to various reporters)

It *seems* LE were basing their collective opinion on the fact that there was no forced sign of entry (and later we discovered another reason was that HS had been roughed up a bit, while BS had not been). HS's blood underneath her hanging body, two bodies hanging in same positions on a low railing with apparently short belts, but yet they weren't ready to call either one a homicide until autopsy next day.

It seems obvious what LE was 'saying', without actually 'verbalizing' it (publicly at least), and the media ran with it (without naming their trusted sources).. and LE apparently did nothing to allay those thoughts until some 6 weeks later. (Which is why, to me, the timing of Gomes' press conference seems very suspect, happening only a couple of days after *finally* bothering to speak with pathologist#2).

At the time when LE were making these 'no suspect being sought' statements and 'sources' leaking to their media friends, there *was* no PI team to think about.

I can't say for sure, however to me, it would be negligent for homicide NOT to investigate an apparent murder (or apparent suicide for that matter), just because the apparent murderer was also dead - because what if (as apparently in *this* case (not to mention the Wayne Millard case)) things were not what they may have appeared? Later they find out, 'ohoh, we didn't bother collecting any evidence because we figured it was the dead guy who did it. Oops!'?
---
December 15, 2017 (the same day the bodies were found)
Global News
CDH = Constable David Hopkinson, TPS
Reporter = various

Reporter: Any concerns about public safety?

CDH: Uh there is no concerns for public safety at this time.
....
Reporter: Who's doing the investigation right now? (2:37)

CDH: 33 Division detectives are, are inside and consulting with the um, the coroner and the pathologist.

Reporter: So it's not Homicide; is it the Homicide unit?

CDH: Homicide investigators? No. Homicide has not been called in. This is just a suspicious death. Uh, we are only investigating that as such right now. If, if it is determined to be a homicide, then our investigators from Homicide will come in.

Reporter: Are they standing by right now, or are they...

CDH: Uhh, th.. they're.. they collaborate on *all* such investigations, they're uh given calls, but uh, they have not been called in to this point.
....
Reporter: At what point would Homicide take over this investigation?

CDH: If this does g.., if this investigation is determined to be a homicide, Homicide will take over the investigation. Currently it is only a suspicious death. It gives us the mechanism, uh, to investigate it properly, and if we find that there is a homicide, then Homicide comes in.
Deaths of Apotex chairman Barry Sherman and wife Honey ‘appear suspicious’: Toronto police
---
Later same day:
Police said later Friday evening that they are not currently seeking any suspects but are keeping an open mind on all possibilities.

“We did not observe any signs of forced entry into the building and so at this point indications are that we have no outstanding suspect to be going after,” Det. Brandon Price told reporters.

“We will be getting a lot more answers tomorrow (Saturday) following the post-mortem examinations.”
Toronto billionaire, wife found dead; Police call deaths ‘suspicious’
---
Also December 15th from City News:

Reporter City News: Homicide detectives were at the scene as well, but only to assist officers in their investigation. And while they wouldn’t call either death a murder, Homicide detective Brandon Price *did* try to ease the fears of neighbours, that a killer may be on the loose:

Detective Brandon Price at 1:24: I can say that at this point uh in the investigation, though it is very early, um we uh are *not* currently uh seeking or uh looking for an outstanding suspect.
CityNews Toronto - Local News, Entertainment, Lifestyle, Weather, Sports

 

[deugirtni]

By all accounts HS was lying facedown on the floor before being suspended from the railing, as there was a pool of her blood on the floor but very little on her blouse. The amount of blood on the floor leads me to conclude she was alive while on the floor, likely unconscious for some time. Then strangled, then hung. Or maybe hung, then strangled makes more sense, and her coat was used to prevent her from struggling .

Along with the wrist bindings.

Their wrists showed evidence that they had been, at one point, bound together. No rope or other materials that could have been used to tie their wrists were discovered, the source told CBC Toronto.
Private investigators believe Toronto billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, source says | CBC News

 

[deugirtni]

Right but didn’t all that speculation occur the first day, prior to the completion of the autopsies? I recall it did. Responding police officers are definitely not trained to visually determine time of death by homicide, especially upon discovery a day or two after the fact.

Police did nothing to allay that speculation for some six weeks. Not until the PI team went public with their 'double murder' finding.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Even though HS arrived home prior to her husband, there’s no information to indicate the time of death for either

KW, our VI, knows as he said, Honey died hours before BS.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Along with the wrist bindings.

Their wrists showed evidence that they had been, at one point, bound together. No rope or other materials that could have been used to tie their wrists were discovered, the source told CBC Toronto.
Private investigators believe Toronto billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman were murdered, source says | CBC News

Since I read this the first time, it wasn't clear to me, if they both BS/HS were bound together (each to the other, 4 wrists) or if they were bound each of it's own (2 wrists each).

 

[deugirtni]

Since I read this the first time, it wasn't clear to me, if they both BS/HS were bound together (each to the other, 4 wrists) or if they were bound each of it's own (2 wrists each).

It is poorly written, however, if you take away the additional descriptive part within the commas, and read it like this:
Their wrists showed evidence that they had been bound together. [Obviously speaking of the 'wrists' and not the 'people', but poor choice of wording was used]

Another, better written piece:
The Toronto Star’s Chief Investigative Reporter Kevin Donovan told CTV News Channel on Saturday that the private team of investigators conducted a second autopsy and found that Barry and Honey Shermans’ wrists were bound at some point.

However, police have not been able to find any rope or plastic ties at the scene that may have been used to bind them, Donovan said.

“I think that’s one of the most significant pieces of new information. There were no bindings found at the scene, but the autopsy, the post-mortem, showed that there were markings on the wrists,” he explained. “Police were looking for stuff in the sewers and one could imagine they were looking for something like that, rope or plastic ties that may not have made it all the way to the sewer system.”
Sherman family's private investigators believe couple was murdered: report

 

[deugirtni]

KW, our VI, knows as he said, Honey died hours before BS.

Considering that KW has been a foe of the S couple for a decade, and that TPS is probably the largest police forces in Canada (and so presumably they've learned a thing or two along the way), and that the couple were both dead of 'suspicious' circumstances that were as yet unknown for certain (but kinda maybe looked like murder), surely police would have known that *anyone* could and should be considered a potential murder suspect. The police reportedly were not even telling immediate family members any information, presumably for that very reason. But yet, KW has all this inside knowledge. I am not certain where his inside knowledge came from.

 

[drama_farmer]

From the beginning, my feeling (IMO, not based on any facts or evidence) has been that the bodies were put on display for the shock value, and to send a message, regardless of method/manner of death.

If I were writing a fanciful work of fiction, my diabolical villains would be related to the contractors who installed the pool and/or railings.

We know that the Shermans' were not happy with many aspects of the work done on/in the home. I have no idea if their "punch list" of complaints are available to read, but if I were looking for a way to tie the deaths to specific subjects, I would look for any specific complaints about the pool railings. My imaginary culprits would pose their bodies as a clever reply to a specific complaint like: "The pool railings are flimsy and dangerous and will not stand up against the weight of an adult."

 

[casesensitive]

From the beginning, my feeling (IMO, not based on any facts or evidence) has been that the bodies were put on display for the shock value, and to send a message, regardless of method/manner of death.

If I were writing a fanciful work of fiction, my diabolical villains would be related to the contractors who installed the pool and/or railings.

We know that the Shermans' were not happy with many aspects of the work done on/in the home. I have no idea if their "punch list" of complaints are available to read, but if I were looking for a way to tie the deaths to specific subjects, I would look for any specific complaints about the pool railings. My imaginary culprits would pose their bodies as a clever reply to a specific complaint like: "The pool railings are flimsy and dangerous and will not stand up against the weight of an adult."

Yes, that would certainly send a message from a pool railing designer. Three of the civil suits against five firms were settled in 2006. We don't know the status of the two who didn't pay anything. I'd fall off my computer chair if read that one of them was the pool design firm. lol

 

[JDG]

With all due respect, being a VI on WS and being an 'insider' to police information are vastly different things.

I think it was obvious and palpable at the funeral, the S children had been kept in the dark which, understandably, added to their distress.

Just totally agreeing with post a few upthread.

 

[MistyWaters]

From the beginning, my feeling (IMO, not based on any facts or evidence) has been that the bodies were put on display for the shock value, and to send a message, regardless of method/manner of death.

If I were writing a fanciful work of fiction, my diabolical villains would be related to the contractors who installed the pool and/or railings.

We know that the Shermans' were not happy with many aspects of the work done on/in the home. I have no idea if their "punch list" of complaints are available to read, but if I were looking for a way to tie the deaths to specific subjects, I would look for any specific complaints about the pool railings. My imaginary culprits would pose their bodies as a clever reply to a specific complaint like: "The pool railings are flimsy and dangerous and will not stand up against the weight of an adult."

Or was the pool railing the only feature within the house where the bodies could be staged by hanging next to each other, making it appear they collaborated together and chose to die in that way?

Death by hanging - The historical act of hanging in Canada and most other countries is indicative the death sentence, punishment, guilt, execution, justice, conviction of wrongful deeds, along with public humiliation.

Maybe the pool railing was simply chosen by the perp/s because it served the purpose, a means to an end? Had the home had open beams or something higher, I suspect that would’ve been a preferred option.

The murder occurring in the home, each of the two staged together in the same manner and the act of staging a suicide by hanging - all point toward a very intense but irrational personal motivation towards both of them was involved, recent and ongoing. IMO

 

[dotr]

Unsure if these medals are hung from a chain that can be put around one's neck, but any chance the one B&HS received just prior to the deaths is missing? Could it be used as a ligature?
speculation, imo.
Senators pay tribute to citizens – and themselves – with medals for 150th birthday
"medals for 150th birthday
November 21, 2017

The Senate is awarding many of its own members specially minted medals as part of a program intended to honour volunteers, community activists and "unsung heroes" for the Red Chamber's 150th birthday."

WARMINGTON: Sherman mansion security underscores Toronto Police staffing issues
"A police officer uses a metal detector and searches the snow at a home on Old Forest Heights Blvd behind the estate of Barry and Honey Sherman on Old Colony Rd in North York on Wednesday January 10, 2018. Veronica Henri/Toronto Sun"

 

[MistyWaters]

With all due respect, being a VI on WS and being an 'insider' to police information are vastly different things.

I think it was obvious and palpable at the funeral, the S children had been kept in the dark which, understandably, added to their distress.

Just totally agreeing with post a few upthread.

Sort of on that topic, I can’t help but wonder if “the friend” was also a police officer - snip from the Fifth Estate interview that I linked earlier, @ appx 20:35

.......“...Kerry Winter got a phone call he’ll never forget...from a friend. (KW) “He said oh they just found Barry and Honey’s body in the house and I just calmly said to him on the phone, I don’t believe it, he finally did it. I said he killed her....”

******
KW posted earlier that he was interviewed by CBC prior to the TPS press conference. In view of that, it’s highly possible KW condensed his version of the phonecall so that might explain his somewhat questionable recollect.

Otherwise, wouldn’t the first question be “what happened?” How could he know the deaths initially appeared to be a result of a murder/suicide based only on learning their the bodies were found in the house. Maybe the house had a gas leak, maybe both their bodies were ridden with bullets in a gangster style execution, or a violent robbery occurred and they were beaten to death???

 

[JDG]

KW, our VI, knows as he said, Honey died hours before BS.

FromGermany, I think a fairer and more correct way to phrase this is that Kerry 'feels' or Kerry 'suspects' that Honey died hours before BS.

Unless he has accessed both the police evidentiary notes AND the autopsy results, he cannot be certain.

One can have a 'gut feeling' but proof is required, no?

 

[ldlager]

FromGermany, I think a fairer and more correct way to phrase this is that Kerry 'feels' or Kerry 'suspects' that Honey died hours before BS.

Unless he has accessed both the police evidentiary notes AND the autopsy results, he cannot be certain.

One can have a 'gut feeling' but proof is required, no?

 

[ldlager]

It wasn't just the one 'unknown' officer who publicly stated that no suspects were being sought on the very same day the bodies were found. And he wasn't just stating his own personal opinion. He was the officer tasked with dealing on record with the media that day on behalf of TPS - basically he gave a televised press conference on site. He did very well at not answering most of the various reporters' pressing questions, except for the fact that the public didn't need to be concerned about a killer on the loose, and no suspects were being sought. It seems police already had that theory in the bag and coordinated amongst themselves, since there were at least two that put their names to that information on that day OF.

A homicide detective also publicly stated to media that no suspects were being sought. (Nevermind all the other officers who may or may not have spoken 'off the record' to various reporters)

It *seems* LE were basing their collective opinion on the fact that there was no forced sign of entry (and later we discovered another reason was that HS had been roughed up a bit, while BS had not been). HS's blood underneath her hanging body, two bodies hanging in same positions on a low railing with apparently short belts, but yet they weren't ready to call either one a homicide until autopsy next day.

It seems obvious what LE was 'saying', without actually 'verbalizing' it (publicly at least), and the media ran with it (without naming their trusted sources).. and LE apparently did nothing to allay those thoughts until some 6 weeks later. (Which is why, to me, the timing of Gomes' press conference seems very suspect, happening only a couple of days after *finally* bothering to speak with pathologist#2).

At the time when LE were making these 'no suspect being sought' statements and 'sources' leaking to their media friends, there *was* no PI team to think about.

I can't say for sure, however to me, it would be negligent for homicide NOT to investigate an apparent murder (or apparent suicide for that matter), just because the apparent murderer was also dead - because what if (as apparently in *this* case (not to mention the Wayne Millard case)) things were not what they may have appeared? Later they find out, 'ohoh, we didn't bother collecting any evidence because we figured it was the dead guy who did it. Oops!'?
---
December 15, 2017 (the same day the bodies were found)
Global News
CDH = Constable David Hopkinson, TPS
Reporter = various

Reporter: Any concerns about public safety?

CDH: Uh there is no concerns for public safety at this time.
....
Reporter: Who's doing the investigation right now? (2:37)

CDH: 33 Division detectives are, are inside and consulting with the um, the coroner and the pathologist.

Reporter: So it's not Homicide; is it the Homicide unit?

CDH: Homicide investigators? No. Homicide has not been called in. This is just a suspicious death. Uh, we are only investigating that as such right now. If, if it is determined to be a homicide, then our investigators from Homicide will come in.

Reporter: Are they standing by right now, or are they...

CDH: Uhh, th.. they're.. they collaborate on *all* such investigations, they're uh given calls, but uh, they have not been called in to this point.
....
Reporter: At what point would Homicide take over this investigation?

CDH: If this does g.., if this investigation is determined to be a homicide, Homicide will take over the investigation. Currently it is only a suspicious death. It gives us the mechanism, uh, to investigate it properly, and if we find that there is a homicide, then Homicide comes in.
Deaths of Apotex chairman Barry Sherman and wife Honey ‘appear suspicious’: Toronto police
---
Later same day:
Police said later Friday evening that they are not currently seeking any suspects but are keeping an open mind on all possibilities.

“We did not observe any signs of forced entry into the building and so at this point indications are that we have no outstanding suspect to be going after,” Det. Brandon Price told reporters.

“We will be getting a lot more answers tomorrow (Saturday) following the post-mortem examinations.”
Toronto billionaire, wife found dead; Police call deaths ‘suspicious’
---
Also December 15th from City News:

Reporter City News: Homicide detectives were at the scene as well, but only to assist officers in their investigation. And while they wouldn’t call either death a murder, Homicide detective Brandon Price *did* try to ease the fears of neighbours, that a killer may be on the loose:

Detective Brandon Price at 1:24: I can say that at this point uh in the investigation, though it is very early, um we uh are *not* currently uh seeking or uh looking for an outstanding suspect.
CityNews Toronto - Local News, Entertainment, Lifestyle, Weather, Sports

I have a friend that is an opp officer who has been heavily and thoroughly trained in dealing with the media. That is her primary role, and she is good at it. She just shakes her head at the way TPS initially handled this.

I will be blunt, and this is my opinion only. Based on what I have read and heard, TPS couldn’t even inform the family in a timely and responsible manner that their loved ones had died. I really question whether they are capable of solving this case.

 

[ldlager]

FromGermany, I think a fairer and more correct way to phrase this is that Kerry 'feels' or Kerry 'suspects' that Honey died hours before BS.

Unless he has accessed both the police evidentiary notes AND the autopsy results, he cannot be certain.

One can have a 'gut feeling' but proof is required, no?

Unless someone who would know this for certain told him.

 

[deugirtni]

FromGermany, I think a fairer and more correct way to phrase this is that Kerry 'feels' or Kerry 'suspects' that Honey died hours before BS.

Unless he has accessed both the police evidentiary notes AND the autopsy results, he cannot be certain.

One can have a 'gut feeling' but proof is required, no?

Unless he happens to *know* know, as in firsthand knowledge.