UK -Major incident declared - UK anti-terror police investigating possible nerve agent attack, 2018

[Shiressleuth]

It's scary they carried it on a plane.

Yeah and the DM upthread stated they are searching a jet from the Russian state airline, Aeroflot, that they believe the assassins travelled in on.

(BTW, the Russian businessman murdered in London in March was an Aeroflot executive and was suing the airline for millions
Link

Nikolai Glushkov - Wikipedia )

What a tangled web.

 

[dotr]

The impression i have, is that Dawn tried the perfume right there and then when it was found.
If it splintered in Charlie's hands at that time, why would they bring a broken bottle home?
Also..
Trains, planes and automobiles, oh my!
rbbm, speculation.
Novichok victim Charlie Rowley became contaminated after breaking bottle, brother says
:Mr Rowley’s brother Matthew told The Sunday Telegraph his brother’s recollection of what took place was still “vague”, but he added: "He told me that they found something that looked like a perfume bottle. Dawn sprayed what was inside it on both her wrists and rubbed them together, like you do when you’re trying perfume.


“Charlie said she then gave the bottle to him and somehow it splintered or broke in his hands. That’s how he must have got contaminated.”

The bottle was discovered by police just over a week ago, during a minute search of Mr Rowley’s flat in the small town of Amesbury, a 15 minute drive north of Salisbury."

"It is believed the hit squad flew back to Russia shortly after carrying out the attack, travelling to London from Salisbury by train".

 

[jjenny]

Not making much sense to me either. If bottle broke why would they take it to their home.

 

[Inthedetails]

Not making much sense to me either. If bottle broke why would they take it to their home.

Did she spray it when she found it or bring it home and spray it? (Either way, kinda odd to keep a broken bottle.)

jmo

 

[Satchie]

I seems to me they must have been trying the perfume bottle at home, nerve agents normally act immediately. Kim Jon-nam died before he could be transported to hospital, poisoned by VX.

"Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes."
Novichok agent - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

 

[Shiressleuth]

Not making much sense to me either. If bottle broke why would they take it to their home.

Maybe he then put it in the rubbish or recycling and was not able to tell LE till he came round on Wednesday.

 

[badgersmythe]

Police keep Novichok survivor in safehouse with no access to TV

Salisbury Novichok victim Charlie Rowley's brother says he is being kept in police safe house | Daily Mail Online

 

[dotr]

Imo, o/t may i suggest this DVD to cheer up Mr Rowley.
The Big Lebowski (1998) - IMDb

Novichok survivor Charlie Rowley reveals he can't wait to have a drink after poisoning ordeal and is 'very glad' to be out of hospital
"Charlie said: “I’d really like to go out for a bottle of wine. I’m very glad to be out of hospital but I’m trapped in a room and on a lot of medication. I’ve been let out for a cigarette but I’m very bored.”

Police have allowed him to watch films on his brother’s DVD player.

Matthew said: “He has some memory loss. I’m not sure if it is from the Novichok or the hospital medication. He’s a bit foggy and frustrated."
“Charlie said he can’t really talk on the phone. He said he can hear clicks and stuff like his calls are being listened to.”

 

[jjenny]

I seems to me they must have been trying the perfume bottle at home, nerve agents normally act immediately. Kim Jon-nam died before he could be transported to hospital, poisoned by VX.

"Novichok is reported to be 5–8 times more lethal than VX nerve agent and effects are rapid, usually within 30 seconds to 2 minutes."
Novichok agent - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

Well, this one doesn't act immediately. Skripals were supposedly poisoned by Novichok put on their front door. They were out of the house for hours before their collapse. Furthermore, in the latest poisoning, the woman collapsed hours before the man did.

 

[Legally Bland]

Well, this one doesn't act immediately. Skripals were supposedly poisoned by Novichok put on their front door. They were out of the house for hours before their collapse. Furthermore, in the latest poisoning, the woman collapsed hours before the man did.

I don't know much about nerve agents, but ingestion method must have some effect on the time it takes to show symptoms.

From my untrained eye, ingestion through the skin is going to be slower than ingestion by eating/drinking/inhalation.

Other factors may be the ratio of the mix of the 2 chemicals needed to make novichok. Then there may also be degradation of the chemicals used.

I don't see anything to doubt UK LE's version of events.

 

[Satchie]

Well, this one doesn't act immediately. Skripals were supposedly poisoned by Novichok put on their front door. They were out of the house for hours before their collapse. Furthermore, in the latest poisoning, the woman collapsed hours before the man did.

I guess it's my tendency to assume that the scientific facts don't vary, whereas media reports are sometimes confused, inaccurate or incomplete.

 

[jjenny]

I guess it's my tendency to assume that the scientific facts don't vary, whereas media reports are sometimes confused, inaccurate or incomplete.

What exactly would be "scientific facts" here? If you consider the quote you found about how lethal it is supposed to be a scientific fact, how do you explain that three victims exposed to it aren't even dead?

 

[Shiressleuth]

What exactly would be "scientific facts" here? If you consider the quote you found about how lethal it is supposed to be a scientific fact, how do you explain that three victims exposed to it aren't even dead?

Ineptitude by the poisoners and our wonderful NHS. Fast dosage of the antidote and being close to Porton Down did not hurt either.

Litvinenko didnt die immediately either and was in a UK hospital but there is no antidote to radiation.

 

[jjenny]

Ineptitude by the poisoners and our wonderful NHS. Fast dosage of the antidote and being close to Porton Down did not hurt either.

Litvinenko didnt die immediately either and was in a UK hospital but there is no antidote to radiation.

If it was as fast-acting and lethal as that quote claims, they all would have been dead.
And no, they weren't quickly given the antidote. In both cases, nobody knew it was Novichok at first. In Skripals case, fentanyl was suspected. In second case, they thought, seems for quite a while, it was a bad batch of street drugs. So would have been at least some time before it was figured out what they were poisoned with to give the antidote. So if poison was supposed to act within several minutes, it would have been too late to give the antidote and they would have been dead.
As for Litvinenko not dying immediately, that's what polonium does, it's not expected to be a quick death.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Atropine Uses, Side Effects & Warnings - Drugs.com

Link explains when atropine is used. They were frothing at the mouth and rolling there eyes. This is a commonly used drug for these symptoms, for suspected poisonings and prior to general anaesthetic.

If it was as fast-acting and lethal as that quote claims, they all would have been dead.
And no, they weren't quickly given the antidote. In both cases, nobody knew it was Novichok at first. In Skripals case, fentanyl was suspected. In second case, they thought, seems for quite a while, it was a bad batch of street drugs. So would have been at least some time before it was figured out what they were poisoned with to give the antidote. So if poison was supposed to act within several minutes, it would have been too late to give the antidote and they would have been dead.
As for Litvinenko not dying immediately, that's what polonium does, it's not expected to be a quick death.

They probably gave the atropine before it was confirmed IMO. It is not harmful as I understand. You asked for explanation why they didn't die.

 

[jjenny]

Atropine Uses, Side Effects & Warnings - Drugs.com

Link explains when atropine is used. They were frothing at the mouth and rolling there eyes. This is a commonly used drug for these symptoms, for suspected poisonings and prior to general anaesthetic.



They probably gave the atropine before it was confirmed IMO. It is not harmful as I understand. You asked for explanation why they didn't die.

Naloxone is that standard antidote if opoid poisoning is suspected, not atropine. But never mind, if novichok was actually deadlier than VX, atropine would have to be administered very quickly and seems pretty obvious that didn't happen. If Skripals were poisoned by novichok on their front door (and that what has been reported) then they walked around for hours before showing symptoms. In the second case, the man became sick many hours after woman became sick. So, again, not consistent with fast acting lethal poison.

“Known by its U.S. Army code name, it is a clear, colorless liquid with the consistency of motor oil,” read the CFR statement. “A fraction of a drop of VX, absorbed through the skin, can fatally disrupt the nervous system. Although a cocktail of drugs can serve as an antidote, VX acts so quickly that victims would have to be injected with the antidote almost immediately to have a chance at survival.”
When Kim Jon-un's half-brother was poisoned, he was carrying 12 bottles of the antidote. Why couldn't he use them?

 

[Shiressleuth]

Sergei Skripal discharged from Salisbury hospital

Traces of nerve agent found at Zizzi

Couple of articles about the Skripals (medical care and traces found at Zizzi's restaurant) that address some points being discussed on this thread.

 

[CARIIS]

But also, I think this is a kind of state-sponsored terrorism and the primary intended effect was to shock and upset people, especially government officials. There was some discussion earlier on this thread about why not just shoot Skripal: I think using a nerve agent ensures massive media coverage, and sends unequivocal messages: "enemies of Russia beware", and "western nations are helpless to stop us doing what we please."

The fact that both Skripals survived, and the victim was instead an innocent woman, makes the Russians look fairly inept, IMO.

IMO --It does not feel as if Russia is looking inept.

About anything. At any time. These days. Nothing.

Meanwhile..
Vladimir Putin reopens town where Novichok was developed
Vladimir Putin reopens town where Novichok was developed

"The facility in Shikhany led the efforts to develop Soviet chemical weapons, including Novichok-class nerve agents Credit: AP"

As mentioned - anything- he is just marching forward doing whatever he wants. It kinda like a kid who had not been eating cookies as told - but over time realizes he can take one and nothing happens - so why not expand to two cookies and then three...

Yeah Im surprised too that they even kept him alive after they arrested him in Russia.

I guess they wanted their 10 american spies back bad enough to give him up and they probably had this plan all along that they can just execute him at a later time.

The other 3 they released had better have 24 hour security on them.

I just recently saw a TV special on Olympic Doping Scandal at the Russia Olympics and there are a few whistleblowers that allegedly were killed and some fearing their life still.

They are ruthless about getting revenge on people that have wronged them. At least in democratic societies we just bring them to court most of the time and dont execute them on the spot. Scary stuff but all too real.

and we only know about a small amount of them

But also, I think this is a kind of state-sponsored terrorism and the primary intended effect was to shock and upset people, especially government officials. There was some discussion earlier on this thread about why not just shoot Skripal: I think using a nerve agent ensures massive media coverage, and sends unequivocal messages: "enemies of Russia beware", and "western nations are helpless to stop us doing what we please."

The fact that both Skripals survived, and the victim was instead an innocent woman, makes the Russians look fairly inept, IMO.

IMO --It does not feel as if Russia is looking inept.

About anything. At any time. These days. Nothing.

I agree. I’d also be interested to know more about the alleged attempt to hack into police computers. It’s all very sinister I really don’t know what to believe.

The really scary one is them killing the electric grid -- believe it or not we would die. No water no sewer no 18 wheelers, trains planes (fuel) to transport food etc planes would be crashing all over the place no gas for cops fire depts rescue units

They still cant get Puerto Rico running - imagine what 38 states going black at once.

*ignore me*

If you insist!

British listening station in Cyprus - this must be a super duper station they come up a lot in this stuff. I thought it was another like country (!) the last year and half! I did not know it was British!

View attachment 139708

it is doing weird stuff gonna just do one pic a post

Ayios Nikolaos Station - Google Search

 

[CARIIS]

Woman among Russian hit squad of four identified as Skripal poisoning suspects
"Salisbury poisoning: Woman among Russian hit squad of four identified as key suspects in Skripal novichok probe
CCTV footage shows two people carrying and administering the nerve agent and others providing backup"

"The progress made on identification was also confirmed by American as well as British security sources earlier this week. US intelligence agencies have been closely involved in the Salisbury investigation from the start."

on another level it is amazing what we and our allies , intelligence wise, have been able to uncover , trace backwards and put it all together.

Read the stuff that is coming out over here ( the actual formal documents - not the summaries in the news- the actual data) its James Bond and then some!

Its like : On Feb 29 at 302:26 at 701 park lane IP number 241578542 compter 54227 sent an email to IP 52412541 computer 541254 informing John Doe McGee that they had escaped from Britain. Henry Spy Jones opened identified computer at 410:20!

Pages and pages of it

It it was not such awful stuff it is amazing and fascinating reading - it is just like a spy thriller- we all are crime followers - if ya want an amazing page turner locate them and dive in - amazing and scary stuff.

Its all so complicated yet they are able to do incredible stuff , about all sorts of things. At this point in time the world only knows a tiny bit of what they all know about all sorts of things .

There is no reason to believe Putin is gonna is slow down

 

[CARIIS]

w