PA PA - Cpl. Robert Corriveau, 20, Downington, 18 Nov 1968

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm wondering it he was drugged or if someone got him drunk.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Was Corporal Corriveau prescribed any medication?

 

[jacksonbrown]

Was Corporal Corriveau prescribed any medication?

His hospital records didn't indicate any medications.

 

[jacksonbrown]

I'm wondering it he was drugged or if someone got him drunk.

Because there were no toxicology test done, we do not know.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Because there were no toxicology test done, we do not know.

That could answer some questions.

When I told my roommate. When I told my roommate it was combat veteran who was a Marine in 1968, who was stabbed from the front, and there were no defensive wounds, her initial response was "suicide." She based that on that it would be reflexive for any Marine to defend himself.

Trying to put everything together, I can only come up with four possibilities.

1. Corporal Carriveau was drugged and then stabbed.

2. He was killed, poisoned, and then stabbed to take the attention away from the poisoning.

3. He let someone kill him, possibly a form of what today is called assisted suicide. The "assistant" moved the body.

4. He killed himself, and a friend/assistant moved the body. There was a much greater social and religious stigma to suicide at the time.

The problem with 3 and 4 is the lack of ID. I could understand someone doing that if Corporal Carriveau or his had religious views against suicide. I do not understand why someone would not leave ID or at least leave an anonymous message with the police or the Marine Corps as to who he was.

 

[jacksonbrown]

That could answer some questions.

When I told my roommate. When I told my roommate it was combat veteran who was a Marine in 1968, who was stabbed from the front, and there were no defensive wounds, her initial response was "suicide." She based that on that it would be reflexive for any Marine to defend himself.

Trying to put everything together, I can only come up with four possibilities.

1. Corporal Carriveau was drugged and then stabbed.

2. He was killed, poisoned, and then stabbed to take the attention away from the poisoning.

3. He let someone kill him, possibly a form of what today is called assisted suicide. The "assistant" moved the body.

4. He killed himself, and a friend/assistant moved the body. There was a much greater social and religious stigma to suicide at the time.

The problem with 3 and 4 is the lack of ID. I could understand someone doing that if Corporal Carriveau or his had religious views against suicide. I do not understand why someone would not leave ID or at least leave an anonymous message with the police or the Marine Corps as to who he was.

What if he were a passenger in a car with some military guy at the wheel, carrying a navy knife that had a 4-5" rounded blade (used to cut a rope on a ship quickly) who for whatever reason very quickly reached over and stabbed him with such force it pierced his heart and lung, leaving the car the first crime scene. Back in 68 vinyl was the normal upholstery, very easy to clean up. There was a lack of blood on the body and nothing left at the location of the body. Could he be carried over the shoulder and placed respectfully up against a fence, covered with a navy pea coat that a Marine would never wear. The temperature on Friday was a balmy 57* when he left the Naval hospital, he wouldn't need a coat as he was wearing a wool sweater.

Let's forget #3 and 4, I'm not sure why one would think he wanted to commit suicide. Is it because he was at the hospital being treated for (the unknown at the time) PTSD? A lot of Vietnam veterans suffer from PTSD, have you heard of the 1000 mile stare? Can you imagine the horror these vets saw while in country and the flash backs they experienced when they came home.

I cannot wrap my head around him being drugged and or poisoned. Is that because there were no toxicology test done?

A surprise attack is highly possible as I have presented.

As for the lack of ID, wallet, dog tags, we know he didn't have them. It's possible the killer(s) had reason to think he would identified quickly. Sure they could have enormously called the police or drop them in a mail box, nonetheless that didn't happen.

I also believe someone knew something at the hospital, the reason I think this is because the officer gave an order on 11/19/68 he wanted to know if anyone went awol immediately.

No disrespect intended..

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm told that there would not be a huge amount of blood from that type of a wound. The victim tends to bleed internally, IIRC.

There is a "sailor's knife" or a "rigger's knife," but I don't think they were standard issue, even as far back as World War II. The KA BAR was the standard issue; the "rigger's knifes" is more used with sail boats and yachting. One, possibly, could inflict such a wound, but they are the size of a Swiss Army Knife, at least the ones made now.

There are also a problem of trying to stab while sitting. If someone a standing, he could put his body weight into the thrust. He couldn't do that as well while sitting and swinging his arm laterally. He also could not target it as well. It is not impossible, but it would be much more difficult.

All of that still wouldn't explain why Corporal Carriveau still did not attempt to defend himself, nor why his wallet and dog tags are missing.

I would not rule out suicidal thoughts as an explanation for the lack of defensive wounds. There is a moral principle called "indirect suicide." One of the examples is a soldier going into combat with an expectation of being killed. In the Catholic Faith, there was a distinction drawn, a soldier fighting for a good cause, even expecting death, would be considered moral. It would depend a lot on Carriveau's religious views and on how strongly he held them.

Also, he was wounded three times, at least once, very seriously. He also declined a discharge.

 

[jacksonbrown]

I'm told that there would not be a huge amount of blood from that type of a wound. The victim tends to bleed internally, IIRC.

There is a "sailor's knife" or a "rigger's knife," but I don't think they were standard issue, even as far back as World War II. The KA BAR was the standard issue; the "rigger's knifes" is more used with sail boats and yachting. One, possibly, could inflict such a wound, but they are the size of a Swiss Army Knife, at least the ones made now.

There are also a problem of trying to stab while sitting. If someone a standing, he could put his body weight into the thrust. He couldn't do that as well while sitting and swinging his arm laterally. He also could not target it as well. It is not impossible, but it would be much more difficult.

All of that still wouldn't explain why Corporal Carriveau still did not attempt to defend himself, nor why his wallet and dog tags are missing.

I would not rule out suicidal thoughts as an explanation for the lack of defensive wounds. There is a moral principle called "indirect suicide." One of the examples is a soldier going into combat with an expectation of being killed. In the Catholic Faith, there was a distinction drawn, a soldier fighting for a good cause, even expecting death, would be considered moral. It would depend a lot on Carriveau's religious views and on how strongly he held them.

Also, he was wounded three times, at least once, very seriously. He also declined a discharge.

Been told there was very little blood.

Have you heard of a Marlin spike? It also could not be ruled out, how much force was applied. What if the surprise of the stab caused Corriveau to fall into the 'spike' or rounded object, perhaps a screw driver, that was not ruled out.

It is possible he could have been swinging his arms laterally, it is also possible being stabbed rendered him indefensible. Could he have died instantly. Could the attacker be known to him?

He was Catholic and he had a job to do, he did his job. They were taught to protect your 'brother'. He wanted to go back, he stated in the doctor's reports that's where he wanted to be. He re-enlisted so he could go back. His active duty would have ended while on another tour in Vietnam. Based on his personality suicide would be the furthest thing on his mind. Suicide is a cowards way out.

Could his killer (s) think he would be quickly ID'd and want to put some distance between him and the crime, he/she wouldn't want to carry around his ID. Could he/she have no conscious. Could he/she not want to spend time in prison and thrown the ID into a river?

Being wounded three times didn't stop him from re-enlisting, that guaranteed him a trip back. His stated this in his record.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I've looked at the Marlin spikes, but they were not standard issue and they are more used in ships with rigging for sails, e.g. a yacht or sailboat.

Even if Corriveau was killed/incapacitated instantly after being stabbed, why didn't he attempt to block it or defend himself as the attack was coming? He was well trained to do so and the attack came from the front.

Even under the rubrics of the Catholic Church in 1968, the idea of dying for a good cause was not a "coward's way out." Someone, like a Marine fighting for a good cause and protecting his brother Marines, could be engaged in action that would almost certainly lead to death, and that would be considered morally acceptable. That could have been the motivation to return to combat. The Church has liberalized its position since then, but suicide was very stigmatized at the time, and would be grounds for denying someone a Christian burial. That is an explanation, though not the only one, of why there were no defensive wounds.

Some other reasons are that Corriveau was unconscious, semiconscious or already dead when the wounds were inflicted

As I indicated, a lateral attack from a sitting position, would be fairly difficult.

The killer would not to carry the ID or dog tags of the victim, but why would he take them in the first place, especially the dog tags? The dog tags were removed without force, so either Corporal Corriveau voluntarily removed them, or, postmortem, the killer carefully removed them.

 

[CCJD]

I'm not convinced Bobby Dan left the hospital alive. This may sound a little "out there" but what if, whether deliberate or accidental, he was stabbed in the hospital. By a staff member? Another patient in the psyche ward? I imagine there are any number of surgical instruments that meet the description of a cylindrical weapon. The one they used for lobotomies comes to mind but I haven't found anything to indicate that lobotomies were performed at the Naval Hospital, especially not at that late date.

He was found sitting. That, in and of itself, is unusual. But what if he was put into a car, sitting in the back seat (looking "normal"). By the time they reached the Downingtown area, rigor had set in and that's how they left him.

If he died at the hospital, it would certainly be a black eye for a hospital that seems to have had an excellent reputation. So a cover up began. It would also explain why he had no ID or dog tags on him when he was found.

 

[jacksonbrown]

I've looked at the Marlin spikes, but they were not standard issue and they are more used in ships with rigging for sails, e.g. a yacht or sailboat.

Even if Corriveau was killed/incapacitated instantly after being stabbed, why didn't he attempt to block it or defend himself as the attack was coming? He was well trained to do so and the attack came from the front.

Even under the rubrics of the Catholic Church in 1968, the idea of dying for a good cause was not a "coward's way out." Someone, like a Marine fighting for a good cause and protecting his brother Marines, could be engaged in action that would almost certainly lead to death, and that would be considered morally acceptable. That could have been the motivation to return to combat. The Church has liberalized its position since then, but suicide was very stigmatized at the time, and would be grounds for denying someone a Christian burial. That is an explanation, though not the only one, of why there were no defensive wounds.

Some other reasons are that Corriveau was unconscious, semiconscious or already dead when the wounds were inflicted

As I indicated, a lateral attack from a sitting position, would be fairly difficult.

The killer would not to carry the ID or dog tags of the victim, but why would he take them in the first place, especially the dog tags? The dog tags were removed without force, so either Corporal Corriveau voluntarily removed them, or, postmortem, the killer carefully removed them.

H

 

[jacksonbrown]

I do not think Bobby would commit suicide intentionally or otherwise. He felt going back to Vietnam suited him best, he wanted to remain a Marine.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

I'm not convinced Bobby Dan left the hospital alive. This may sound a little "out there" but what if, whether deliberate or accidental, he was stabbed in the hospital. By a staff member? Another patient in the psyche ward? I imagine there are any number of surgical instruments that meet the description of a cylindrical weapon. The one they used for lobotomies comes to mind but I haven't found anything to indicate that lobotomies were performed at the Naval Hospital, especially not at that late date.

There are a lot of problems with this theory.

1. Why cover it up? There are unfortunate accidents, and if a patient killed him, it would be not guilty by reason of insanity. That was valid defense in 1968.

2. Why no defensive wounds? Even if a "crazy person" attacked Corriveau, why doesn't he defend himself?

3. I'm fairly sure that a hospital could dispose of a body much better that leaving it along the Turnpike. There could be a number of places much less easily found. Once disposed of, report him as AWOL.

4. Would he be wearing civilian clothing in the hospital? It seems to be clear that Corriveau was wearing his civilian clothing prior to being killed.

5. The pea coat. Compared with other types of military issue coats (or knockoffs) they tend to be more expensive. Whomever put the pea coat Corriveau made a monetary sacrifice. Why would someone do that when abandoning the body?

6. I have yet to be in a hospital where non-staff could have access to surgical instruments. I could see something like a Phillips screwdriver, which a patient could might slip into his pocket while passing a maintenance man, so that is not a big problem.

The first three are the most problematic ones.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I do not think Bobby would commit suicide intentionally or otherwise. He felt going back to Vietnam suited him best, he wanted to remain a Marine.

I think it is unlikely, but I would not rule it out. If it was suicide, it was either by letting someone stab him (which is still murder), or by someone moving the body and disposing of the of the weapon (which would be abuse of a corpse, tampering with evidence, and possibly obstruction of justice).

 

[jacksonbrown]

I'm not convinced Bobby Dan left the hospital alive. This may sound a little "out there" but what if, whether deliberate or accidental, he was stabbed in the hospital. By a staff member? Another patient in the psyche ward? I imagine there are any number of surgical instruments that meet the description of a cylindrical weapon. The one they used for lobotomies comes to mind but I haven't found anything to indicate that lobotomies were performed at the Naval Hospital, especially not at that late date.

He was found sitting. That, in and of itself, is unusual. But what if he was put into a car, sitting in the back seat (looking "normal"). By the time they reached the Downingtown area, rigor had set in and that's how they left him.

If he died at the hospital, it would certainly be a black eye for a hospital that seems to have had an excellent reputation. So a cover up began. It would also explain why he had no ID or dog tags on him when he was found.

Your "out there" made sense to the family prior to identification in 2012.

 

[jacksonbrown]

I've looked at the Marlin spikes, but they were not standard issue and they are more used in ships with rigging for sails, e.g. a yacht or sailboat.

Even if Corriveau was killed/incapacitated instantly after being stabbed, why didn't he attempt to block it or defend himself as the attack was coming? He was well trained to do so and the attack came from the front.

Even under the rubrics of the Catholic Church in 1968, the idea of dying for a good cause was not a "coward's way out." Someone, like a Marine fighting for a good cause and protecting his brother Marines, could be engaged in action that would almost certainly lead to death, and that would be considered morally acceptable. That could have been the motivation to return to combat. The Church has liberalized its position since then, but suicide was very stigmatized at the time, and would be grounds for denying someone a Christian burial. That is an explanation, though not the only one, of why there were no defensive wounds.

Some other reasons are that Corriveau was unconscious, semiconscious or already dead when the wounds were inflicted

As I indicated, a lateral attack from a sitting position, would be fairly difficult.

The killer would not to carry the ID or dog tags of the victim, but why would he take them in the first place, especially the dog tags? The dog tags were removed without force, so either Corporal Corriveau voluntarily removed them, or, postmortem, the killer carefully removed them.

,
The dog tags were ID: name, religion, and serial number.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

,
The dog tags were ID: name, religion, and serial number.

Yes, but I was thinking something along the lines of documentation.

 

[jacksonbrown]

Yes, but I was thinking something along the lines of documentation.

A military ID containing name, rank, serial#, unit, assigned company etc and or a drivers license would all be written documentation. The dog tags as I remember them, CORRIVEAU R D USMC (serial #) 2148499 (religion) RC (blood type) O

 

[J. J. in Phila]

A military ID containing name, rank, serial#, unit, assigned company etc and or a drivers license would all be written documentation. The dog tags as I remember them, CORRIVEAU R D USMC (serial #) 2148499 (religion) RC (blood type) O

That would not constitute ID, at least today and probably not in 1968. There would be no way for someone to prove that the person wearing them is the same person whose name is on the dog tags. Even in 1968, I would doubt that someone could use dog tags to establish his identity with the police or at a bank.

They are obviously useful in helping identify someone, especially a body. It would be a bit better that a tattoo or clothing labels, but in itself dog tags would not establish ID.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Did Corporal Corriveau have an injury over his left eye, under the eyebrow? If so, was it fresh?