FL FL - Clermont, WhtMale UP6030, 24-32, transgender, breast implants, Sep'88

[GreyClay]

The current investigator certainly seems to be trying extremely hard to identify the decedent. There is another lengthy article about possibly using familial DNA to identify Julie Doe, but the investigator is also trying to have isotope testing doe as well. Very pleasing to see how much time an effort is being put into a 30 year old case!!

Tamara Dale feels like she knows “Julie Doe.”

The Lake County Sheriff’s Office sergeant has been investigating the 30-year-old cold case for about two years — but has yet to learn Julie’s real name.

Dale said she doesn’t plan to use the test to arrest anyone, especially since a medical examiner’s report was inconclusive as to Julie Doe’s cause and manner of death.

“In a perfect world this test might lead to a suspect, yes, but my first priority is figuring out who she was so her body can be laid to rest,” she said. “Of course, I would love to figure out what happened to her, but that comes after giving her family some peace.”

Dale said she has had the victim’s DNA run through several other databases and also had all of her evidence checked for foreign DNA. She is hoping to have an isotope test done at the University of South Florida later this year that would test the victim’s teeth, hair and bone.

The test could help figure out where the victim grew up and lived just before her death.

“Part of me really thinks that she didn’t live here in Central Florida, so getting this information could really help us figure out where we should be looking,” Dale said. “Because right now, her whole story is a complete mystery.”

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...gender-cold-case-dna-test-20170703-story.html

 

[Roselvr]

2752UMFL - Unidentified Male
View attachment 94000
Date of Discovery: September 25, 1988

Location of Discovery: Clermont, Lake County, Florida

Estimated Date of Death: 8 months prior

State of Remains: Not recognizable - Mummified

Cause of Death: Unknown

Physical Description

Estimated Age: 22-35 years old

Race: White

Gender: Male

Height: 5'9" to 5'11"

Weight: 170 lbs.

Hair Color: Brown, long and bleached blonde.

Eye Color: Unknown

Distinguishing Marks/Features:
May have been in the process of, or had undergone, gender reassignement. Had silastic breast implants. Long manicured nails. Robust, athletic build. Possible healed fracture of anterior left 7th rib. Healed fracture of the right cheek bone secondary to blunt trauma. Healed fracture to the right 5th toe. Evidence of a surgical rhinoplasty.

Identifiers

Dentals: Available

Fingerprints: Not Available

DNA: Available

Clothing & Personal Items

Clothing: Blue-green tank top, Manisha long acid washed denim skirt, and panty hose.

Jewelry: Unknown

Additional Personal Items: Unknown

Circumstances of Discovery

A passerby looking for cypress wood to build lawn furniture, discovered the decednt's remains in a wooded area in the Green Swamp area known as Four Corners in the vicinity of Hwy 474, four miles east of Hwy 33.
Initially, the decedent was believed to be a woman and it was thought she had given birth. When the remains were tested again, DNA revealed that the decedent was male who had undergone gender reassignment surgery, which was uncommon for the era.

NAMUS LINK: https://identifyus.org/cases/6030

DOE NETWORK LINK:http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2752umfl.html

I entered Julie in Doe Net, took a long time for her profile to go online

The current investigator certainly seems to be trying extremely hard to identify the decedent. There is another lengthy article about possibly using familial DNA to identify Julie Doe, but the investigator is also trying to have isotope testing doe as well. Very pleasing to see how much time an effort is being put into a 30 year old case!!

[video=youtube;LhV2aQQACuA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhV2aQQACuA&feature=player_embedded[/video]

 

[LucyOso]

Why does namus list her as male? I find that very wrong and disrespectful to the whole trans community. Besides that, if she was presenting as female (by that I mean wearing female clothes, living her life as female) then it would make more sense to try and match her case with missing females.

It is a tough call. Especially for those with gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is different from trans dressing and is not based on sexual preference either. In this situation, going by the biological gender at birth is more likely to find a match then listing her as female. The thing is biological family can/could have reported her as him missing, but those who truly cared i.e. "family" might not have had the right to report her missing at the time. While it dishonours her gender identity, the match will ultimately come from "his" family. And "his" family might never come forward due to the transition. It could be a before and after change. Her change also most likely came with a name change. And tracing a missing woman without DNA will be very difficult. We honour her gender identity by referring to her as she while knowing the match might come from family who may not even be aware of this transition.

I agree that this whole case is very confusing and I am surprised that the lab would make a mistake like this!
Am I correct in thinking that the Transgender community wouldn't have been as big or as open in 1988, compared to nowadays?
If that is the case, then it's weird that noone is missing this lady!

It would seem only a handful of places and doctors were performing surgery at that time. She should be fairly easy to identify. I would imagine someones patient suddenly stop refilling oestrogen tablets. Not many people had the financial ability or resources to make the full transition back then. It would seem the community would know who this is. Unfortunately, due to the AIDS epidemic in major cities where a cisgender person could fit in, many historians could be lost. This really should be easy to narrow down though. There is such a brief period of time this could have occurred it seems.

This article is interesting:

http://www.cinematter.com/tshistory.html

And Christine Jorgensen is a pioneer. This article offers so leads into the history of gender reassignment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Jorgensen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_(male-to-female)

 

[LucyOso]

Lana T. Coronado aka Lana Lou Satoris

Last seen in San Fransisco. Little details are known. Her clothing is very "dressed up". Her features are fairly masculine. One image might be reversed but both chins deviate and she has asymmetry with that one cheek bone. The 1980 picture might show a broken nose. This could have been repaired. Her name could be a coincidence, that also could be a chosen name, but it is a fabulous name. if this was a legal name change, it could lead back to her birth name. Possibly reported missing by her peers aka adopted family/friends as the gender she identifies with? CarlK?




http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/coronado_lana.html

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/990dfca.html

 

[bflocket]

I don't have an issue with them listing her as a male. I will assume that this UID left home as a teenager and never returned. Went off did his thing and started the process of becoming a woman. So if anyone is looking for the boy they once knew they are not going to be looking for missing females.

I saw that I'd posted on this thread that I didn't know of any real transexuals. That was eons ago (2016!) and I actually at least know of a few now. But it's just one M2F and that's my brother's girlfriend's baby-daddy. I don't really know him very well, but I just knew of them as a guy. I actually know of a few F2M's now. Until I knew about the ones that I know, I didn't think that they actually existed (other than Mole McHenry in John Waters' Desperate Living).

That being said, I don't know if it's possible (other than on the I Am Jazz show) for people to actually start transitioning before they're of legal age. So whatever hormone treatments that they might have, their bone structure and body shape would have already been cemented as their birth sex once they're an adult. I figured that if they were "remains," then they'd be able to tell their original sex for sure, implants and surgery aside, from their skeleton.

 

[carbuff]

Transitioning at a younger age is possible with family support. In many cases, transitioning before puberty is an option. Here's just one of many available articles: STUDY: Letting Kids Transition Before Puberty Eliminates Higher Rates Of Depression, Anxiety

 

[bflocket]

Transitioning at a younger age is possible with family support. In many cases, transitioning before puberty is an option. Here's just one of many available articles: STUDY: Letting Kids Transition Before Puberty Eliminates Higher Rates Of Depression, Anxiety

That may be the case today in some places, but there would still likely (inevitably) be an uproar in the bible belt states. But I think that it would be hard to do anywhere back in 1988.

 

[carbuff]

That may be the case today in some places, but there would still likely (inevitably) be an uproar in the bible belt states. But I think that it would be hard to do anywhere back in 1988.

In many ways 1988 was more open and progressive than 2018 is. We've regressed a lot in the past 20 years.

 

[bflocket]

In many ways 1988 was more open and progressive than 2018 is. We've regressed a lot in the past 20 years.

That may be so. But it things would be harder to verify. Any sex-change surgeries back then would have been very "under the radar" (if that's the right term). Remember that it wasn't totally legal to be a (practicing or even non-practicing) gay person in this "bastion of individual rights and freedoms," the USA, until 2003 (Lawrence/TX). I looked that up because I knew it was only fairly recently that "sodomy laws" for consenting adults were struck down for gay people. I knew it was sometime not so long ago. I still just can't believe that it was really that recently. Lord, I could already buy alcohol by then...

We could honestly talk about some major regressions within the past few years, but I don't wanna open that can of worms.

 

[carbuff]

That may be so. But it things would be harder to verify. Any sex-change surgeries back then would have been very "under the radar" (if that's the right term). Remember that it wasn't totally legal to be a (practicing or even non-practicing) gay person in this "bastion of individual rights and freedoms," the USA, until 2003 (Lawrence/TX). I looked that up because I knew it was only fairly recently that "sodomy laws" for consenting adults were struck down for gay people. I knew it was sometime not so long ago. I still just can't believe that it was really that recently. Lord, I could already buy alcohol by then...

We could honestly talk about some major regressions within the past few years, but I don't wanna open that can of worms.

It depended on where you were whether as a trans person you would have had access to surgery and other medical treatment. The first transsexual I knew was in college in 1978 in Montana; she had had her surgery in Canada, I believe, though after this many years my memory is a bit vague on that point. One of my colleagues where I worked in New Hampshire in the 1980's transitioned with full support from our company and the group we worked in. I don't know where she went for the actual surgery but most of the process was through Boston hospitals. That was the first time I heard about younger people transitioning; she had started in college.

Many fairly open states still had negative laws on the books that hadn't been enforced in decades but had never been repealed either. Massachusetts was one of those. So the way people were living didn't even come close to matching the legalities.

And of course progress anywhere is erratic. There can be huge forward steps in one town and massively regressive events in the next. That's true all over the country (and I presume in other countries as well).

I don't suppose any of that helps us find this woman though.

 

[leilarose68]

DNA Doe Project has taken on Julie Doe's case!! She is currently in the lab for DNA extraction.

 

[rats]

It's still considered "tentative" per DDP. Link: DNA Doe Project

I am so, so hopeful. Julie Doe is never far from my thoughts.

Slight glitch: Would they be looking for a male name, or a female one? Both? We never know her status of being out to her family.

Still, so hopeful. She deserves her name back.

 

[Roselvr]

It's still considered "tentative" per DDP. Link: DNA Doe Project

I am so, so hopeful. Julie Doe is never far from my thoughts.

Slight glitch: Would they be looking for a male name, or a female one? Both? We never know her status of being out to her family.

Still, so hopeful. She deserves her name back.

I was so happy to see DDP is willing to take her case! Praying the extraction goes well

As for what to look for, Julie was born male, you can't change the Y chromosome she was born with

 

[rats]

I was so happy to see DDP is willing to take her case! Praying the extraction goes well

As for what to look for, Julie was born male, you can't change the Y chromosome she was born with

And? People could put her in as female in family trees. Her Y-chromosome doesn't change how her family views her, if they viewed her as her real self (a woman), she could be in there as a woman.

 

[carbuff]

And? People could put her in as female in family trees. Her Y-chromosome doesn't change how her family views her, if they viewed her as her real self (a woman), she could be in there as a woman.

I wondered that too. The friend I mentioned above, in college, is almost certainly listed in her family's records as female. She had her birth certificate legally changed.

 

[rats]

I wondered that too. The friend I mentioned above, in college, is almost certainly listed in her family's records as female. She had her birth certificate legally changed.

Absolutely. But even if the legal records weren't changed (as I don't know if they could back then, since it was so long ago), the family tree records themselves might be different. Or, we could be dealing with another beast entirely - she is listed as a male, and either the family wasn't accepting, or didn't know.

That's not something I'd want to deal with as a law enforcement officer.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Absolutely. But even if the legal records weren't changed (as I don't know if they could back then, since it was so long ago), the family tree records themselves might be different. Or, we could be dealing with another beast entirely - she is listed as a male, and either the family wasn't accepting, or didn't know.

That's not something I'd want to deal with as a law enforcement officer.

We tend to take it for granted that the families of the long deceased are happy to have the past brought back home. But what if they're not? What if a can of worms is opened that the family would rather have remained closed and forgotten?

I'm guessing that if the age estimate is correct, this person was born in the late 1950s or early 1960s, probably to parents who themselves were born in the 1930s. If either is still alive they may not want the past coming back like this. On the other hand, of course, they may be grateful for the news after so many decades of silence.

Dunno. IF they, or other family members, don't want to know I hope they are able to maintain their anonymity as Lyle's family have been able to do. Otherwise I can foresee them being hounded and publicly vilified by trans activists.

 

[Roselvr]

And? People could put her in as female in family trees. Her Y-chromosome doesn't change how her family views her, if they viewed her as her real self (a woman), she could be in there as a woman.

That's not what I'm saying. I thought you were asking what records DDP would look for when Julie was born. I said male because you can't change that she has Y-DNA. Her birth record if online is male. Now if looking at family tree, we can't even guess; they may have Julie as male turned female such as name Julie "James" Doe or James "Julie" Doe

Absolutely. But even if the legal records weren't changed (as I don't know if they could back then, since it was so long ago), the family tree records themselves might be different. Or, we could be dealing with another beast entirely - she is listed as a male, and either the family wasn't accepting, or didn't know.

That's not something I'd want to deal with as a law enforcement officer.

Me either. I feel so bad for Julie, we don't know how her family view her.

Copying the quotes over since it's a new page

I was so happy to see DDP is willing to take her case! Praying the extraction goes well

As for what to look for, Julie was born male, you can't change the Y chromosome she was born with

It's still considered "tentative" per DDP. Link: DNA Doe Project

I am so, so hopeful. Julie Doe is never far from my thoughts.

Slight glitch: Would they be looking for a male name, or a female one? Both? We never know her status of being out to her family.

Still, so hopeful. She deserves her name back.

 

[rats]

We tend to take it for granted that the families of the long deceased are happy to have the past brought back home. But what if they're not? What if a can of worms is opened that the family would rather have remained closed and forgotten?

I'm guessing that if the age estimate is correct, this person was born in the late 1950s or early 1960s, probably to parents who themselves were born in the 1930s. If either is still alive they may not want the past coming back like this. On the other hand, of course, they may be grateful for the news after so many decades of silence.

Dunno. IF they, or other family members, don't want to know I hope they are able to maintain their anonymity as Lyle's family have been able to do. Otherwise I can foresee them being hounded and publicly vilified by trans activists.

I worry about the family as well. If they publicly scorn Julie, either for being trans or just because they didn't want her to come home (maybe a fight, etc), what happens? Do they just keep finding family until someone agrees to bring her home? (Like a niece or something). Hm... It's hard to think of.

Hm. As a "trans activist" myself (as well as a trans person), I don't think so. But I'm not going to get into this here and I suggest you make the same choice.

That's not what I'm saying. I thought you were asking what records DDP would look for when Julie was born. I said male because you can't change that she has Y-DNA. Her birth record if online is male. Now if looking at family tree, we can't even guess; they may have Julie as male turned female such as name Julie "James" Doe or James "Julie" Doe

Me either. I feel so bad for Julie, we don't know how her family view her.

They definitely have a wild case on their hands. Unless she was born in Vermont, though, there's a low chance of her birth record being accessible online in a format that we can easily identify. Some states have it up on Ancestry, some don't, Vermont DEFINITELY does. Florida tends to attract people from everywhere, though, so they may just have no leads whatsoever. Especially considering the question of her birth name versus the name she went by.

Such a rough case. They're gonna have to rely hard on those DNA matches.

 

[carbuff]

Absolutely. But even if the legal records weren't changed (as I don't know if they could back then, since it was so long ago), the family tree records themselves might be different. Or, we could be dealing with another beast entirely - she is listed as a male, and either the family wasn't accepting, or didn't know.

That's not something I'd want to deal with as a law enforcement officer.

Yes, that was my point--all her records could be under either her deadname and gender, or her new ones.

The friend in college was 1977, and she petitioned a judge to require her record to be changed. The state then issued a new birth certificate. I don't know whether that means the old birth certificate doesn't exist at all, or if it's just sealed and inaccessible.