IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, found deceased, Evansdale, 13 Jul 2012 #38

[dotr]

delete

 

[Fukiyama]

lived in small town Iowa

I wouldn't emphasis this.

 

[dotr]

4'11' 145 lbs- Lyric
4'1'' 65 lbs-Elizabeth
Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins - Google Search:

 

[Gruffin]

Regarding the dates, Lyric and Elizabeth were abducted on Friday the 13th, 2012. Mollie was abducted on 18-07-18. That's also a nice number if someone is looking for an interesting date to abduct someone.

As happens about every seven years on average, July 13, 2018, was also a Friday, and I remember thinking it odd that last month someone took hostages at a grocery store in Salisbury, NC, at about 11:30pm on July 12. The perpetrator was stopped by a police sniper, I suppose about when July 13 was beginning. What especially struck me as odd about it then was that the infamous Lyerly family axe murders occurred on Friday, July 13, 1906, leading to the lynching of three blacks (on little evidence) by a mob in Salisbury near the railroad on August 6, 1906. The depot that used to be near the Lyerly home (near where the old Western North Carolina RR met the North Carolina Midland RR) now is in Salisbury.

You may have heard of SS New York. As Titanic was leaving Southampton on April 10, 1912, to start her maiden voyage of doom, she passed so close to the berth of New York as to strain New York's hawsers to breaking, causing New York to swing out and almost collide into Titanic before Titanic was even able to leave Southampton Water. Less well known is that on June 30, 1906, exactly thirteen days before the murders of the Lyerly family, New York, as was its custom, unloaded many of its wealthier clientele at Plymouth, Devon, to ride a special American Line Express boat train to London on the West of England Main Line--it was a faster way to get to London Waterloo than waiting for the liner to get to Southampton. The boat train violently overturned from inexplicable excess speed on a curve at the east side of the Salisbury train station very early on July 1, killing 28. This overturning, as judged by the westernmost point of track damage, occurred about 30 yards due south of what Google Maps suggests is the main doorway to the Salisbury Railway Social [Drinking?] Club, of which Sergei Skripal was a member. Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess were admitted to hospital June 30 from a similar nerve agent poisoning, after visiting a park in Salisbury, a park also fairly close to the train crash site.

The Western North Carolina RR, the North Carolina Midland RR, the West of England Main Line and the line from Southampton toward London meeting this line (both then part of the London and Southwestern Railway), and the railroad near where the Lyerly's were lynched all were or would become parts of Southern Railway (the one in England obviously totally different from the one in America). Ten miles or so northeast of Salisbury, on the day Leon Czolgosz was electrocuted for the assassination of President McKinley, there was on the Southern Railway a circus train wreck that seriously wounded famous female sharpshooter Annie Oakley. This July 26, the day after Lucy McHugh, 13, was murdered in Southampton (murders aren't nearly as common in England as here), a bus overturned in Oakley, Hampshire, at a curve going under the West of England Main Line to London Waterloo.

 

[Copper]

Comparison of Evansdale cousins Lyric Cooke and Elizabeth Collins, and Brooklyn's Mollie Tibbetts:

• disappeared without a trace in broad daylight or in the early evening before dark
• lived in small town Iowa
• Lyric and Mollie were similar in height and build
  • Lyric was 4'11 and 140 lbs (looking for wt. confirmation)
  • Mollie was 5'2" or 5'3" and 120 lbs
• Evidence : possible decoy
  • Evansdale : bikes, phone, and purse misled police throughout the investigation for missing persons Lyric Cooke and Elizabeth Collins
  • Brooklyn/Guernsey : digital signature led to Guernsey, no sign of Mollie so far, could separation of Fitbit and cell phone near Guernsey leave misleading digital signature
• occurred during the month of July 6 years apart: 13-07-12, 18-07-18
• perp may be familiar with Iowa party, fishing, hunting, and wildlife areas
  • location of Evansdale cousins abduction
  • location of Evansdale cousins' bodies
  • digital signature in wildlife area near Guernsey (real or digital)
• Dis-similarity :
  • Lyric was 10 years old
  • Mollie was 20 years old
  • Lizzie was 8
• Lyric was tapped to go to a remote park with a different cousin shortly before she vanished, there was sufficient concern that parents contacted police, then Lyric vanished - was a digital signature missed?
• Mollie was jogging when she was grabbed - was it easier to snatch a young woman than a child or two 6 years later?
• predators are known to evolve
  
• predator is likely not from Evansdale or Brooklyn, but possibly familiar with the communities

Additions or subtractions from the list? Am I missing something, am I making unrealistic assumptions?

I would mention the time of the year. Summer has excellent ground cover to conceal the remains for months. And the remains spending months in hot and humid conditions would be an advantage to the predator.

 

[Copper]

Sorry for the double post, but do we know if Lyric participated in any extracurricular activities or something else that would draw all ages and backgrounds to watch?

 

[Considering]

I remember that Lyric was involved with church activities as was Elizabeth but I don't know to what extent. Elizabeth played hockey and softball but I don't recall anyone saying Lyric was involved with any organized sports.

 

[otto]

Looking at awareness space and corridors connecting Brooklyn with Evansdale. Highway 21 certainly looks like a good option, and Guernsey is South on hwy 21 from Brooklyn.

Thoughts?

 

[otto]

As happens about every seven years on average, July 13, 2018, was also a Friday, and I remember thinking it odd that last month someone took hostages at a grocery store in Salisbury, NC, at about 11:30pm on July 12.
<respectfully snipped>

When I first started reading this rather long comment I thought perhaps it has something to do with Aspergers - as in seeing connections where there are none.

If your point is that there is no connection between dates and when people murder, I would disagree and could site numerous examples, but won't. The reasons for picking specific dates, such as Valentines Day, the day before Christmas, or a suspicion about a number such as 13 don't always make sense to everyone, but there's usually something about the date that makes sense to the murderer - especially with pre-meditated murder.

 

[str8nightowl]

Comparison of Evansdale cousins Lyric Cooke and Elizabeth Collins, and Brooklyn's Mollie Tibbetts:

• disappeared without a trace in broad daylight or in the early evening before dark
• lived in small town Iowa
• Lyric and Mollie were similar in height and build
  • Lyric was 4'11 and 140 lbs (looking for wt. confirmation)
  • Mollie was 5'2" or 5'3" and 120 lbs
• Evidence : possible decoy
  • Evansdale : bikes, phone, and purse misled police throughout the investigation for missing persons Lyric Cooke and Elizabeth Collins
  • Brooklyn/Guernsey : digital signature led to Guernsey, no sign of Mollie so far, could separation of Fitbit and cell phone near Guernsey leave misleading digital signature
• occurred during the month of July 6 years apart: 13-07-12, 18-07-18
• perp may be familiar with Iowa party, fishing, hunting, and wildlife areas
  • location of Evansdale cousins abduction
  • location of Evansdale cousins' bodies
  • digital signature in wildlife area near Guernsey (real or digital)
• Dis-similarity :
  • Lyric was 10 years old
  • Mollie was 20 years old
  • Lizzie was 8
• Lyric was tapped to go to a remote park with a different cousin shortly before she vanished, there was sufficient concern that parents contacted police, then Lyric vanished - was a digital signature missed?
• Mollie was jogging when she was grabbed - was it easier to snatch a young woman than a child or two 6 years later?
• predators are known to evolve
  
• predator is likely not from Evansdale or Brooklyn, but possibly familiar with the communities

Additions or subtractions from the list? Am I missing something, am I making unrealistic assumptions?

Interesting Otto. I ALWAYS thought the Evensdale Murders and Delphi murders were related. So much so that I called the investigative team working on the Evansdale Murders (once I heard about the Delphi Murders) to let them know I think they were related (of course they told me others had already called and they are looking into that). I never would have though the disappearance of Mollie could be related to the Evansdale Murders and Delphi Murders. But the more I think about it, maybe it COULD be. Maybe he has evolved and decided to grab one person instead of two (especially since he probably almost got caught with the Delphi murders with them finding the phone and his voice being on the phone). I'm thinking he is familiar with the area too but doesn't like there. Maybe he has a job traveling which takes him to all these locations (hence HOW he is familiar with these areas). Thanks for the input

 

[Gruffin]

If your point is that there is no connection between dates and when people murder, I would disagree and could site numerous examples, but won't.

My point is neither more nor less than that the pattern I mentioned suggests a possible connection between the crimes mentioned. I think references to historical miscellany is a more common thing than references to numerology in patterns of killers. That said, simple numerical patterns in killings can be a way for the murderer to emphasize a connection that exists to something else. As for 2-13-17 being 7-13-12 backwards, that could well be something intentional and reflective of some other connection (that I haven't found). References to historical stuff, on the other hand, gives opportunity to reference death (which serial killers tend to like, e.g., by way of justifying killing), and it may even give a killer superficial airs of sacredness since most people who reference the dead do so more from memorialization than for perverse reasons. It is a good thing to learn how to avoid pointless death, to seek justice, and to consider what the desires of the dead would be (even those who believe in ghosts will probably admit that not being alive makes one more powerless), and serial killers may want to blend in with those who give the dead such reverence as is just. Pure numerical references, on the other hand, lead to what? Mathematics? Mathematics is not very haunting, presumably because intuitively it in itself possesses a moral neutrality that makes it not something that in itself could encourage people to kill. That forwards is like backwards is not totally a morally neutral idea, though--that is a pattern one might see for its own sake (even with words--I remember back in the day some people thought you could find all sorts of weird hellish things by playing records backwards on the turntable).

Crazy is not so bad for finding serial killers. Crazy people know that when they are extra crazy (in the typical terrifying hellish way) that they are probably on wrong track or are not going about things as well as they could, which helps them refine their understanding. It's a sense those who are never crazy may lack. In looking for "crazy" patterns, I find it helps to be in a frame of mind that is not as careful about typical common sense distinctions as usual, and so after I feel I may have found something, I find it very useful to step back away from blurry-land for a while to make sure I got everything exactly right about names, dates, etc. Often I'll notice I was off about something, which makes for gloom, then, no, I'll (often) see I wasn't as off as I thought because I'm off about something else that cancels or I am neglecting to account for something else, etc. In a way the craziest thing you can do is to be too crazy about not becoming crazy.

 

[otto]

Interesting Otto. I ALWAYS thought the Evensdale Murders and Delphi murders were related. So much so that I called the investigative team working on the Evansdale Murders (once I heard about the Delphi Murders) to let them know I think they were related (of course they told me others had already called and they are looking into that). I never would have though the disappearance of Mollie could be related to the Evansdale Murders and Delphi Murders. But the more I think about it, maybe it COULD be. Maybe he has evolved and decided to grab one person instead of two (especially since he probably almost got caught with the Delphi murders with them finding the phone and his voice being on the phone). I'm thinking he is familiar with the area too but doesn't like there. Maybe he has a job traveling which takes him to all these locations (hence HOW he is familiar with these areas). Thanks for the input

It seems that a lot of people suspect that there's a connection between Evansdale and Delphi, but police ruled that out. It's hard to believe that there are two people, 400 miles apart, who figured out how to trap two girls in a secluded part of a park and murder them. Still, it's possible. Perhaps it was nothing more than a crime of opportunity in both cases. One thing that I'm sure of is that the Evansdale and the Delphi murders were stranger abductions. I think the same is true of Mollie.

Most people are discounting a connection between Evansdale and Brooklyn because the abductions are 6 years apart, and Lyric/Elizabeth were 10/8 years old whereas Mollie is 20. The best example to support the connection, despite age differences, is the murder of Jessica Ridgeway. Her 17 year old abductor unsuccessfully attempted to abduct a woman on a jogging path, but she got away. He then targeted Jessica, who was a more vulnerable younger victim. It's not unusual for serial murderers to evolve, so I think it's possible that over a period of six years someone could abduct children and then abduct a petit young woman.

 

[otto]

My point is neither more nor less than that the pattern I mentioned suggests a possible connection between the crimes mentioned. I think references to historical miscellany is a more common thing than references to numerology in patterns of killers. That said, simple numerical patterns in killings can be a way for the murderer to emphasize a connection that exists to something else. As for 2-13-17 being 7-13-12 backwards, that could well be something intentional and reflective of some other connection (that I haven't found). References to historical stuff, on the other hand, gives opportunity to reference death (which serial killers tend to like, e.g., by way of justifying killing), and it may even give a killer superficial airs of sacredness since most people who reference the dead do so more from memorialization than for perverse reasons. It is a good thing to learn how to avoid pointless death, to seek justice, and to consider what the desires of the dead would be (even those who believe in ghosts will probably admit that not being alive makes one more powerless), and serial killers may want to blend in with those who give the dead such reverence as is just. Pure numerical references, on the other hand, lead to what? Mathematics? Mathematics is not very haunting, presumably because intuitively it in itself possesses a moral neutrality that makes it not something that in itself could encourage people to kill. That forwards is like backwards is not totally a morally neutral idea, though--that is a pattern one might see for its own sake (even with words--I remember back in the day some people thought you could find all sorts of weird hellish things by playing records backwards on the turntable).

Crazy is not so bad for finding serial killers. Crazy people know that when they are extra crazy (in the typical terrifying hellish way) that they are probably on wrong track or are not going about things as well as they could, which helps them refine their understanding. It's a sense those who are never crazy may lack. In looking for "crazy" patterns, I find it helps to be in a frame of mind that is not as careful about typical common sense distinctions as usual, and so after I feel I may have found something, I find it very useful to step back away from blurry-land for a while to make sure I got everything exactly right about names, dates, etc. Often I'll notice I was off about something, which makes for gloom, then, no, I'll (often) see I wasn't as off as I thought because I'm off about something else that cancels or I am neglecting to account for something else, etc. In a way the craziest thing you can do is to be too crazy about not becoming crazy.

I don't think anyone is assuming that because the Evansdale cousins were abducted on July 13 and Mollie was abducted on July 18 that this alone means the abductions are related. Furthermore, if patterns of behavior had no significance, data analytics would not be a thing.

 

[feralwriter]

It seems that a lot of people suspect that there's a connection between Evansdale and Delphi, but police ruled that out. It's hard to believe that there are two people, 400 miles apart, who figured out how to trap two girls in a secluded part of a park and murder them. Still, it's possible. Perhaps it was nothing more than a crime of opportunity in both cases. One thing that I'm sure of is that the Evansdale and the Delphi murders were stranger abductions. I think the same is true of Mollie.

Most people are discounting a connection between Evansdale and Brooklyn because the abductions are 6 years apart, and Lyric/Elizabeth were 10/8 years old whereas Mollie is 20. The best example to support the connection, despite age differences, is the murder of Jessica Ridgeway. Her 17 year old abductor unsuccessfully attempted to abduct a woman on a jogging path, but she got away. He then targeted Jessica, who was a more vulnerable younger victim. It's not unusual for serial murderers to evolve, so I think it's possible that over a period of six years someone could abduct children and then abduct a petit young woman.

Or over a period of six years, he murdered more but we're just not aware of it yet.

 

[Harmony 2]

If you take this picture (which I got off Google) of the Delphi murders and copy it into your computer and scan it up close you can see what looks like a white van or SUV or truck at the end of the bridge (of course it doesn't look like a Genesis truck, but you never know).

Interesting... I recall someone mentioning a white vehicle, I think it was a van, driving in the background during two interviews with Mollie's dad and DJ. White vehicles are common but seeing your post raises some questions.

 

[Harmony 2]

Most people are discounting a connection between Evansdale and Brooklyn because the abductions are 6 years apart, and Lyric/Elizabeth were 10/8 years old whereas Mollie is 20.

It may not have to do with age preference but instead with size preference. Maybe the perp is looking for someone small and vulnerable who is easier to control, dominate and have power over.

 

[TL4S]

It may not have to do with age preference but instead with size preference. Maybe the perp is looking for someone small and vulnerable who is easier to control, dominate and have power over.

Maybe it's a preference for a type of location (outdoors) or activity level? Or maybe it's simply he sees an opportunity to take control of someone with their guard down? Note:I'm new to the Evansdale case so I'm sorry if I don't know all the facts.

 

[TL4S]

Also, this may be completely insignificant, but the rural coops for Evansdale and Brooklyn are both members of Touchstone Energy Cooperatives.

 

[Laughing]

Also, this may be completely insignificant, but the rural coops for both Evansdale and Brooklyn are both members of Touchstone Energy Cooperatives.

My co-op is now a Touchstone co-op as well. We received a letter when the change occurred. IIRC, co-ops are joining in bigger groups for negotiating power when buying electricity and for organizational efficiency. Also coordinates lobbying in DC, allows small co-ops to be heard as well.

IDK if this gives any employees a larger territory?

Might provide additional anonymity or a cover-- "oh, that's just a trusty, reliable co-op vehicle, must be a problem or surveying for a new line...."

We've talked about utility linemen over on the Delphi thread.

Long ago I worked in an office building with a company that built towers & sent "tower jockeys" to repair towers. Not utility lines, just the towers. Good way to see terrain and be quickly reassigned to another area of the country.

 

[Copper]

Assuming Brooklyn and Evansdale are the same predator, right now I am thinking he is a lot like my dad used to be in the sense that he gets around Iowa, not just for work, but for recreation as well. I remember years and years worth of weekends with my dad where we would be on the road for whatever reason. And my dad is one of those guys who likes to wander, is a fearless explorer who didn't think twice about driving up someone's private road or taking the car along nothing more than a dirt path, and really had a knack for finding those out of the way towns or picturesque spots in the country. It didn't hurt that dad is a social extrovert and can strike up a conversation with anyone. My point is, years and years of this and you will get to know places.