WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

[Satchie]

As an additional comment on the cellphone pings, there were statements like:

"Seven intense days of scouring the dramatic landscape in the Cascade Range has turned up no trace of Sayers"
https://www.heraldnet.com/news/search-continues-for-hiker-27-missing-at-vesper-peak/

Surely cellphone pings in the first two days of the search would count as 'traces'!

 

[MsFacetious]

Well, think of all the good that could be done if everyone was not frozen in place worrying about the insurance company's feelings. Or stepping on one or another's jurisdictional toes. For an OT example, during Hurricane Katrina, there were shipments and shipments of supplies just sitting around and no one to distribute them, and finally one woman just started directing people where it should go and actually got it to the places it needed to go. Someone told her she could get "into trouble" for it, but when things need to get moving that's the least of the problems. It's fine to have rules and procedures, but when your rules and procedures are actually canceling out any progress they probably are due for an overhaul. I just think the world has become this passing the buck, not my responsibility, sorry there's nothing we can do-can't help ya kind of place. jmo

I totally agree with you. I just don't feel like this is a situation that applies to. I wish someone had stolen the buses to evacuate people before the hurricane hit too. This just isn't a situation that is comparable because lives could be lost trying to recover a body. If there was an indication Sam was alive it would be different.

 

[PinkPrincessPoop]

The only thing suspicious I feel from KD is that his story of the day she went missing seems weird to me - but then maybe I would do stupid/dangerous things too, if my loved one went missing or I thought they were in trouble. Other than that, I'll wait until LE say anything contrary.

 

[thesaint]

Had to be more people who ran across Samantha on the mountain that day.

Family should've retained a PI firm the first week and tasked them with tracking down and talking to people who were on the mountain that day. Relying on people to self-report their Samantha sightings and turn over video / pics from their hikes is hit or miss at best. Having someone knock on their door, show them Samantha's picture and ask them about their hikes and ask for any pics/video would yield greater results.

if nothing else, the extra sightings/pics/video could be helpful in establishing a more complete timeline of her hike.

 

[PinkPrincessPoop]

Had to be more people who ran across Samantha on the mountain that day.

Family should've retained a PI firm the first week and tasked them with tracking down and talking to people who were on the mountain that day. Relying on people to self-report their Samantha sightings and turn over video / pics from their hikes is hit or miss at best. Having someone knock on their door, show them Samantha's picture and ask them about their hikes and ask for any pics/video would yield greater results.

if nothing else, the extra sightings/pics/video could be helpful in establishing a more complete timeline of her hike.

Good point! How do we know there weren't a bunch of out-of-state people who saw Sam? And then they went home and....nothing? Because they don't watch the news? I would never have known about Sam myself if it wasn't for Websleuths!

 

[ilovematt]

I'm a long time corporate lawyer who deals with companies in risky industries. You get what you pay for with insurance. I'm sure they can purchase private gap coverage for whatever federal workers comp won't cover if they really wanted to. Lloyds of London is famous for insuring incredibly risky and rare industries and situations. Forcing government insurance programs to cover the very risky activity of self-deploying individual dog teams not directed by LE seems off base to me. JMO

This is super OT but my husband’s brother works for Lloyds of London and they even insure the body parts of celebrities and professional athletes. I agree with you, they will basically design a 100% custom policy for literally anything. If you’re able and willing to pay hefty premiums.
Idk what to think here. The searcher whos name starts with K gives me the heebie jeebies in the video. Im sure it’s bc I’m jaded and judgey. idk Maybe she’s not up there..

 

[Satchie]

This is super OT but my husband’s brother works for Lloyds of London and they even insure the body parts of celebrities and professional athletes. I agree with you, they will basically design a 100% custom policy for literally anything. If you’re able and willing to pay hefty premiums.
Idk what to think here. The searcher whos name starts with K gives me the heebie jeebies in the video. Im sure it’s bc I’m jaded and judgey. idk Maybe she’s not up there..

But why should volunteer search and rescue organizations pay huge insurance premiums? Any cash they get goes to equipment and training.

The biggest cost would be 3rd party liability, as some people have sued the volunteers, claiming negligence.

 

[Phantasma2624]

While I think the most likely scenario is Sam got lost or injured and has since perished, I trust/hope all avenues are, or have been explored by LE. Because she summited the peak does NOT mean she wasn’t met with foul play on the way down or near trailhead/parking lot. Who would have been in a better place to know when she would most likely be descending and nearing trailhead than KD? With enough time she could have been harmed and relocated on the mountain loop outside of any foreseeable search area. We have not seen KD’s timeline verified if it ever was. He was on the mountain the evening of her disappearance and was “searching” for her in the dark with no gear (what experienced hiker does that?) and called LE AFTER his late evening search.

And these things,

* the third ping from another area
* there has been NO TRACE found of Sam or her gear, belongings, etc. and Vesper peak and trail have been searched over and over.
* KD’s birthday video for Sam on mountain top bothers me, too much jubilant behavior (it’s on FB if you haven’t seen it)
* KD’s affect in some of the older videos, seemed to be enjoying the attention a bit too much (narcissist?, he has endless supply of narcissistic supply now with all the followers)
* KD referred to Sam in the past tense very early on. Ron and Don Show is one example.
* what better way to avoid suspicion than to head up the largest search party in local history.

Basically, I watch and read too much true crime...but these are my thoughts and they are just my thoughts and opinions.

As per Samantha's mother, KD's alibi has been checked and verified by police. He has been ruled out as a suspect at this time. She said the police verified that he was working that day, and wouldn't have had time to go to the mountain, kill her, hide her somewhere no one could find her, and make it back to the ranger station. Anything done to her would have had to happen on that mountain, because she was placed there by eyewitnesses (3pm at the summit, maybe by a witness at noon) and video (approaching the summit around 1:30). Also, he did have some gear with him when he went there to search for her (i.e. a flashlight).

I actually don't fault him for not calling right away. He probably was hopeful that her phone had just died or that there was some mechanical issue that kept her from leaving. I think that if we applied this in any other situation other than hiking, it would be fine. How many parents call their kids friends or neighbors before reporting a loved-one missing? It's because people doubt themselves and what they see/hear/feel. He probably knew something was wrong, but just hoped not to get the police involved or bother them if it was nothing.

I also think that his behavior has exonerated him. If he had walked away from this when the official search was called off, I would be more suspicious. Instead, he continues to go out there day after day after day looking for her. He even continues after he has encountered hikers who openly accuse him of murder (Samantha's mother mentioned this story in one of her videos). He can't be looking for attention, because his presence has been minimal as he devotes most of his time to the search for her. While you say it's the largest search party, that isn't the case anymore. They have very limited resources, as the majority of the people on the Facebook page can only search drone footage. I'm not saying that's not useful, but it's not like they're getting hundred and hundreds of people to the mountain. Their resources are very strained right now, and yet he persists. I'd be more suspicious if he lead the search and then miraculously "found her". Given how long this has dragged out, I doubt he hurt her.

As for the past tense thing, her mother has done this as well, just about as early as he did. I think that they all know the reality of finding her alive. Her protests in her videos are almost a form of self-affirmation than a firm statement of what she thinks will happen.

If the third ping came through on the day after with the other two pings, it makes sense to throw it out. If those three pings are in quick succession to each other, and there is no way Samantha could have gotten from one area to another, then that makes it an anomaly. Given that this is what the police decided, I'm thinking that's what happened.

I don't think it's very strange that they haven't found her gear either. In many missing in the wilderness cases, there are very little traces of the people left behind, particularly if they wandered off the trail. If she fell into a crevasse, gear and all, nothing could turn up for months or years.

 

[Alethea]

But why should volunteer search and rescue organizations pay huge insurance premiums? Any cash they get goes to equipment and training.

The biggest cost would be 3rd party liability, as some people have sued the volunteers, claiming negligence.

Honestly like someone else said above I think the SAR organizations may feel this is outside of their purview and they are not comfortable risking the lives of their experienced rescuers and dogs in a recovery mission but no one wants to say that to avoid upsetting the family so they blame it on insurance.

The real insurance issue is that this work is so dangerous, there's a chance that a volunteer will get injured or die. If that happens, the organization can get sued by the volunteer or family for not properly safeguarding them during work. If the organization is acting at the direction of LE, they can direct any complaints to LE and the city so the insurance risk is not as great to them. LE may even provide indemnification when an organization is acting at the direction of LE. An accident could bankrupt an SAR organization and prevent them from doing any future work, which is why they would want insurance.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I'm confused about the pings. Some people are talking about pings recorded after she went missing, and they show her as moving. But it also appears there were pings retrieved from her cell provider, recorded when she was out hiking. For example,

"Cell phone pings were recorded near the summit of Vesper Peak, and an eye-witness had lunch with her at the summit around 12pm" Find Sam Sayers | Resource Center

I'm quite sure LE would have been able to obtain her recent cellphone data as soon as they started looking for her (just to ensure she hadn't returned to her car, for eg).

Pings are more likely to happen when you get to a summit and temporarily connect with a celltower.

The confusion possibly arises out of this quote attributed to Sam's mother:

"A military plane flew over the area during the first two days of the search. Lisa Sayers said they were called in to help locate her daughter’s phone.

“They have the capability to ping a phone that is out of service,” she said. “Because that’s a problem up in mountains. You lose all service. They had two pings that they looked at ... but nothing else has come up."
Massive Search Underway For Missing Seattle Hiker

I can see how it implies the military plane found two pings. I think that would have been very precise info, massively important and reported as such by authorities.

However, it could also be Lisa saying 'The problem with hiking in the mountains is you lose cell service. They (police) obtained her cell data from her provider but they just had two pings (from the day she went missing). They sent a military plane but nothing else has come up.'

I'm not at all sure whether any pings were really recorded after she went missing.

Yes, this has been very unclear. I don't think that there is a good answer to this. To me, these stories sounded like the were coordinating their search based off of the cellphone records as you suggest, but posts from the family make me think that the military pinged her phone and found movement. Of course, it could be both, and maybe we don't have the information that the military found.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Honestly like someone else said above I think the SAR organizations may feel this is outside of their purview and they are not comfortable risking the lives of their experienced rescuers and dogs in a recovery mission but no one wants to say that to avoid upsetting the family so they blame it on insurance.

The real insurance issue is that this work is so dangerous, there's a chance that a volunteer will get injured or die. If that happens, the organization can get sued by the volunteer or family for not properly safeguarding them during work. If the organization is acting at the direction of LE, they can direct any complaints to LE and the city so the insurance risk is not as great to them. LE may even provide indemnification when an organization is acting at the direction of LE. An accident could bankrupt an SAR organization and prevent them from doing any future work, which is why they would want insurance.

Exactly. I think they're thinking that the risk of sending someone out there may not be worth the reward. They may think that given the probabilities of finding Samantha with their dogs, it's not worth it to send their team. If she had only been missing for a few days, this may be different. The mother has said many times that she's sick of hearing the probabilities from the experts. I thought maybe this was just through Facebook, but I could also see a SAR dog rescue group saying something like this, and upsetting the family.

For an anecdote of how dangerous this could be, a woman I know has a trained SAR dog that helps to find people in the woods. The dog caught a scent and without thinking ran over the edge of a small cliff, badly injuring herself. They then had to spend hours and money rescuing the dog from a deep crevasse, taking away valuable time from search itself. The dog's vet bills were covered by the SAR group's insurance. Taking the risk of this happening to a dog or a person, to me, would mean that the reward would have to be probable (not certain, but probable). It's likely here that the SAR groups simply don't want to take that risk because it's not probable.

 

[AllGrace]

While I think the most likely scenario is Sam got lost or injured and has since perished, I trust/hope all avenues are, or have been explored by LE. Because she summited the peak does NOT mean she wasn’t met with foul play on the way down or near trailhead/parking lot. Who would have been in a better place to know when she would most likely be descending and nearing trailhead than KD? With enough time she could have been harmed and relocated on the mountain loop outside of any foreseeable search area. We have not seen KD’s timeline verified if it ever was. He was on the mountain the evening of her disappearance and was “searching” for her in the dark with no gear (what experienced hiker does that?) and called LE AFTER his late evening search.

And these things,

* the third ping from another area
* there has been NO TRACE found of Sam or her gear, belongings, etc. and Vesper peak and trail have been searched over and over.
* KD’s birthday video for Sam on mountain top bothers me, too much jubilant behavior (it’s on FB if you haven’t seen it)
* KD’s affect in some of the older videos, seemed to be enjoying the attention a bit too much (narcissist?, he has endless supply of narcissistic supply now with all the followers)
* KD referred to Sam in the past tense very early on. Ron and Don Show is one example.
* what better way to avoid suspicion than to head up the largest search party in local history.

Basically, I watch and read too much true crime...but these are my thoughts and they are just my thoughts and opinions.

Yes. All of this ^^. Yes witnesses saw her. But someone ( either stranger or someone she knows could have caused harm to her up there ).

 

[Phantasma2624]

Yes. All of this ^^. Yes witnesses saw her. But someone ( either stranger or someone she knows could have caused harm to her up there ).

As you can infer from my previous postings, I would be more in favor of a stranger doing anything. The problem is that there is no evidence of it. Even the FBI told the family that they wouldn't be getting involved, because there is no indication of foul play. This makes sense to me. If she were attacked, I would think there would be signs along the trail, like some of her missing gear or even clothing. They've already searched her car, and no, she's not locked in the trunk (apparently there is a subset of people on Facebook that are obsessed with this), and no one saw anything in the parking area.

I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility. Anything is possible given that we haven't found Samantha, but I lean more towards an accident that took her and all her gear quite suddenly.

 

[Satchie]

There's currently 5 hikers missing in the mountains close to Vancouver, these are cases from 2015-2017. It was hoped someone would be found this summer, but it seems unlikely now.

Meanwhile, many others have been rescued or bodies recovered. Three people died taking dramatic photos from a risky spot this summer.

No one has suggested any of the still missing cases are foul play. The families and SAR search periodically, but no one doubts that after 10 or so days, the person won't have survived. It's too bad, but it's the price you pay for going out into wilderness, where mistakes can be fatal.

I only just started following this case, mostly because I find it intriguing that the search is still so intense. To me, it's just another unfortunate hiking accident. There are many more people who go out hiking now, so there are naturally more accidents.

 

[GraceG]

There's currently 5 hikers missing in the mountains close to Vancouver, these are cases from 2015-2017. It was hoped someone would be found this summer, but it seems unlikely now.

Meanwhile, many others have been rescued or bodies recovered. Three people died taking dramatic photos from a risky spot this summer.

No one has suggested any of the still missing cases are foul play. The families and SAR search periodically, but no one doubts that after 10 or so days, the person won't have survived. It's too bad, but it's the price you pay for going out into wilderness, where mistakes can be fatal.

I only just started following this case, mostly because I find it intriguing that the search is still so intense. To me, it's just another unfortunate hiking accident. There are many more people who go out hiking now, so there are naturally more accidents.

It wasn't just hiking. Looking at Sam's Instagram account she liked to rock climb up to very precarious points to perch and get a selfie. And her mother encouraged it. Five weeks without any more clothing than a sports bra and a light jacket, no water, and no food. This is a recovery effort and continuing to risk the lives of others at this point is not worth it. I feel deeply for her boyfriend and her family but they need to listen to the experts.

 

[Suglo]

It wasn't just hiking. Looking at Sam's Instagram account she liked to rock climb up to very precarious points to perch and get a selfie. And her mother encouraged it. Five weeks without any more clothing than a sports bra and a light jacket, no water, and no food. This is a recovery effort and continuing to risk the lives of others at this point is not worth it. I feel deeply for her boyfriend and her family but they need to listen to the experts.

Exactly. What I don’t get is the people on Facebook who to this day comment that she will come home alive. What the heck? I wouldn’t tell her that her daughter is dead but I also would not write that she’s alive. People are nuts.

 

[BristolPistol]

Going into an area like that without extra provisions, clothing, and survival/personal protection gear is a huge gamble and even more so going alone. And calling her an experienced hiker is bologna from my perspective.
No disrespect to her or the family, but she had no business up there alone.

 

[Grit-Bull]

I am frustrated this wasn't treated like a possible abduction from the day she went missing. I still don't understand why the 3Rd ping was immediatly written off as "an anomaly."
When my childhood friend and her mother were murdered on a trail 20 miles from vesper in 2006, law enforcement came under fire for failing to act quickly to close roads/trails leading in and out of the area. Basically, the murderer had an enormous amount of time to escape the area unnoticed. LE then focused on the father/husband as a suspect, which for anyone who knows the family, was and is absolutely ludicrous.
Is it really a stretch of the imagination that whoever killed my friend and her mother on the pinnacle lake trail, resides in the area and this time instead of taking the risk of committing the crime far from the trailhead, took Sam from the parking lot?
The sad reality is that a young, attractive woman, possibly just wearing a sports bra is exponentially more likely than most to fall victim to foul play. I hate even writing this, but when I saw her photo and that she was an experienced, intelligent hiker, abduction is immediately where my mind went.

 

[claptrap]

Going into an area like that without extra provisions, clothing, and survival/personal protection gear is a huge gamble and even more so going alone. <modsnip>

Thank you! I've been thinking this the whole time. Just because she's out there hiking all the time, doesn't necessarily means she's experienced. She's fit enough to scramble, which is no easy task, but she wasn't carrying nearly enough food or wearing the right attire.

I hate to call attention to it, but there are numerous pictures of her hiking in just a sports bra or bralette. Zero protection from the elements. I know she had a jacket with her, but in all the hiking I've done, I've never once thought to take my shirt off to hike and I can't recall seeing any other person (female or male) with a shirt off on the trails. I'm sure it happens, but it's not a common practice - too much skin exposed for the sun or bugs or brush to get to. And what if she fell wearing just her sports bra & then was unable to get to her jacket to cover with? So many scenarios.

People get lazy with safety when they do something enough for it to feel like second nature.

 

[claptrap]

I am frustrated this wasn't treated like a possible abduction from the day she went missing. I still don't understand why the 3Rd ping was immediatly written off as "an anomaly."
When my childhood friend and her mother were murdered on a trail 20 miles from vesper in 2006, law enforcement came under fire for failing to act quickly to close roads/trails leading in and out of the area. Basically, the murderer had an enormous amount of time to escape the area unnoticed. LE then focused on the father/husband as a suspect, which for anyone who knows the family, was and is absolutely ludicrous.
Is it really a stretch of the imagination that whoever killed my friend and her mother on the pinnacle lake trail, resides in the area and this time instead of taking the risk of committing the crime far from the trailhead, took Sam from the parking lot?
The sad reality is that a young, attractive woman, possibly just wearing a sports bra is exponentially more likely than most to fall victim to foul play. I hate even writing this, but when I saw her photo and that she was an experienced, intelligent hiker, abduction is immediately where my mind went.

OT - So tragic. I recall you posting about this earlier on in the thread so I went and read up on your friend and her mother. I wasn't living in the area at the time, so I was unaware. It then *led me to a lot of missing persons cases all throughout the Cascades. I truly hope the future holds a resolution in that case.