Questions and All Three HBO Specials Are On Demand Now!

Satch

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Hey Guys,

Haven't posted about this case for a long time, but wanted to let you guys know that if you get HBO, all three West Memphis Three Specials are on HBO on Demand. I watched Part 1; Paradise Lost last night to revisit the case, and plan to watch the next two specials in the coming days:

This case really makes you think about how the strong "Bible-Thumping beliefs of a small town community can influence public opinion from the start, In my view regardless of where the venue was in Arkansas, no way those defendants were ever going to get a fair trial, regardless of guilt or innocence. The media, the DA, the community, the prosecutor knew that there was going to be a conviction. This was the beliefs of Little House on the Prairie and The Walton's communities ten-fold, Everything good was God. Anything bad or viewed differently was Satanic.

1.) I have questions on both sides that I don't think will ever be known. I think Mark Byers is a complete nut-case. He sends shivers down my spine. He looks weird, acts weird, everything about him frightens me. I think Damien Echols is more normal than MB.

2.) We know that Terry Hobbs and Mark Byers had abusive pasts in their families even with regards to raising the kids. It is criminal that that history was ignored by LE. Both of these men had the potential to commit murder far more than those three teens.

3.) I don't trust Damian either, but I don't see any forensic evidence linking him to murder. How do we know that the knife and the necklace were not planted by LE? The whole prosecutions' case was a dog and pony circus-act, wit leading questions for the jury that never should been admissible by the judge if he would have been fair and impartial.

4.) I am not suggesting that the WM3 are innocent, but did you know that there was ANOTHER Jason Baldwin than hung around with Damian Echols that weighed about 200 pounds? I have always wanted to find out more about him. The Jason Baldwin that we know, is too small in size and stature to have done this.

5.) Jessie Misskelley is taller and bigger, but because of his low IQ would not be capable of doing this crime. If Damian pulled this off, he had two different accomplices involved. It is more likely that someone like Byers or Hobbs, (and that friend of TH who's name escapes me had something to do with this.)

6.) You would have to have three grown men or very heavy set boys (at least three) to pull this off and not get caught. All the blood was washed away. This suggest that the little boys were killed somewhere else and their bodies were dumped in the creek ditch.

7.) Why did MB give the HBO production crew a knife when Paradise Lost was being filmed? I think he said it was a "gift." Another strange move by a strange man.

8.) We have instances of the defendants changing their story and Damian lying, but so for that matter did LE and the prosecution. Especially implying that Wicca was related to devil-worship. It is not. They study witchcraft, magic, and sorcery. But my understanding is that Wiccan's do not go around hurting or killing people. They would be severely reprimanded for doing that. Wiccan is more about magic and mystery and the study of nature and the Earth. Wicca's like to give back to society, to replenish and grow. They learn from experience.

9.) Terry Hobbs refusing a polygraph is not good at all.

Based on all of this, I would be forced to acquit the WM3 in a new trial, because there is too much reasonable doubt. I read that in 2007, new DNA findings showed no evidence of the defendants DNA on the victim's bodies. If the defendants were guilty, some of their DNA would be there.

Satch
 
Wiccans worship the earth.. a pentagram, on it's right side, represents the elements, only if you turn it around you see the "goat horns".. case number 666 was not a coincidence and shows agenda, det. ridge deeply felt this was satanic... look at his notes. you have the chief inspector gitchell saying very early on "no signs of satanic ritual" still they brought in their "cult-expert" at the trial... give me a f*ing break. you know, being an atheist and all that this still pisses me off to this day.

this was MURDER. period.
 
@Satch
i strongly disagree with point 6.

... three 8 year olds. just try to remember back... you being that age.. you're somewhere reclusive, like in the woods... and a grown-up shows you a knife, or a gun... i'd freeze. seriously. most probably obey to what the guy wants. now if he tells me he's a cop, without seeing his mark, i'd fully believe him.. why? cause i'm a naive don't-know-s**t 8 year old boy.
 
seriously, dogmatica...? are you here as some sort of agent provocateur... lol
what are you insinuating? accidental death? collective suicide?
 
To be honest,

I don't think we are ever going to know what happened here. What do you think ? Do you think that the WM3 are Guilty? Just maybe Damian? Or are they Innocent? Or we may never know?

Satch
 
Wiccans worship the earth.. a pentagram, on it's right side, represents the elements, only if you turn it around you see the "goat horns".. case number 666 was not a coincidence and shows agenda, det. ridge deeply felt this was satanic... look at his notes. you have the chief inspector gitchell saying very early on "no signs of satanic ritual" still they brought in their "cult-expert" at the trial... give me a f*ing break. you know, being an atheist and all that this still pisses me off to this day.

this was MURDER. period.

Do you think that Damian talked them into this? He would be big enough to do something like this. If you think that all three are guilty. what do you think Jason and Jessie were doing?

Satch
 
seriously, dogmatica...? are you here as some sort of agent provocateur... lol
what are you insinuating? accidental death? collective suicide?

I thought you were proclaiming there was no occult component. Of course it was murder - nobody has ever questioned that.
 
To be honest,

I don't think we are ever going to know what happened here. What do you think ? Do you think that the WM3 are Guilty? Just maybe Damian? Or are they Innocent? Or we may never know?

Satch

Guilty as it gets, all 3 of them.
 
People need to stop looking at this in the terms that the documentaries want you to look at it.

This isn't about a "satanic agenda" or railroading 3 kids who wore black, or any other bull-zit narrative the documentaries tried to frame it as. If the police had their own agenda, documentaries have agendas all the same, so might as well hold them in contempt too.

What the documentaries fail to divulge is the fact that many, many suspects were looked at, followed through on, and investigated before the WM3. This is a fact. Simpy visit Cally's. JMB himself was thoroughly put through the ringer before the WM3 were arrested. So, if there was this big "satanic agenda," why the hell would the police bother investigating all these other suspects? They wouldn't have. They wouldn't have wasted all that man-power and all those hours, going door-to-door, tracking down all those dead-end leads, if they simply wanted to pin it on 3 satanic-worship teens from the get-go.

Yes, the case number was changed to "666," but is that really, definitively, any concrete proof whatsoever that there was this satanic agenda/conspiracy on behalf of the WMPD? No.
 
@Userid (good to see you again btw)
yeah...i basically agree. but the whole satanic thing was to sell their case, when they finally arrested all 3 and there was gonna be a trial. jmo. it was for selling, cause you will agree that the evidence presented at trial was circumstantial at best. they were playing at exactly that fear that many people had during that time.
that's why there was a cult expert at the trial and they talked about echols drawing and writings etc.

gitchell said "no satanic motive" right after the murders (remember the newspaper articles we posted a few weeks ago? there it said it), and for that matter, that's also why we shouldn't believe him reg. the blood samples from the bojangles suspect.

do you know what gitchell said in his deposition (2009 iirc)..? he would take back the 11. yeah, that 11. ...so basically he's saying well.. we had a case. period.
 
But how do you dispute the fact that none of the defendants' DNA was found on the bodies? And none of the defendants' teeth marks matched the bite marks on the victims. The knife found in the lake behind Jason's house was proven by a forensic pathologist to not have been used in the murders. Those scientific facts should be enough to throw out their conviction.

But the juryies never saw any of this at either trial. That's the sad part. This trials should have been moved out of state, where all of the evidence should have been permitted. Terry Hobbs in that third part of the documentary is now even MORE suspicious to me than I remember. Mark Byers diagram of guilty reasons for TH in the third part of the series was great!. Where was TH between about 6:30-8:30 on the night of the murders? He has no alibi and had an abuisive psast with his wife and son.

Jason's thoughts at the end were very powerful statements about the problems with our legal system. If the WM3 did this, they sure did a job of covering up all the blood evidence, moving the bodies, hiding the clothes, mutilating CB's genitalia. It would really take at least three grown men to pull this off successfully.

People still think Damian did this, but as a practicing Wiccan, Wiccan's don't worship the devil. They are into the sorcery and mystery of magic and witchcraft. But they also believe that anything you do in life that is good or bad, comes back to you. If Damian had participated in the murders of those kids, he would expect something bad to happen to him for his evil act. And a practicing Wiccan would not take that kind of a risk. Getting caught in such a small town, would be too great a risk for the kids. We don't even have a motive for the crime. But if you look at Terry Hobbs or the Bojangles Guy, the fact that they were never in questioned shows terrible police work.

Satch
 
@Userid (good to see you again btw)
yeah...i basically agree. but the whole satanic thing was to sell their case, when they finally arrested all 3 and there was gonna be a trial. jmo. it was for selling, cause you will agree that the evidence presented at trial was circumstantial at best. they were playing at exactly that fear that many people had during that time.
that's why there was a cult expert at the trial and they talked about echols drawing and writings etc.

gitchell said "no satanic motive" right after the murders (remember the newspaper articles we posted a few weeks ago? there it said it), and for that matter, that's also why we shouldn't believe him reg. the blood samples from the bojangles suspect.

do you know what gitchell said in his deposition (2009 iirc)..? he would take back the 11. yeah, that 11. ...so basically he's saying well.. we had a case. period.

Thanks, you too leslievernon. Do you recall when that case number was changed exactly? I thought it was before the WM3 were ever arrested, but I could be wrong. Either way, I don't really think is any concrete proof of a conspiracy, personally. Changing it to "666" would have no bearing at all at the trials for the juries either. Bryn Ridge would say the case number in audio interviews before the WM3 were arrested, I'm pretty sure. In other words, the case number was changed before the WM3 were really on the police's radar -- they were investigating other suspects, particularly JMB, beforehand. I think Bryn Ridge (or whoever) changed it simply because the case was "evil" in general; not because there was satanic-panic conspiracy to enact right out of the gate. It was completely unnecessary to change the number-- I will give you that.

Yes, Gitchell's "11" comment was stupid gall of a cocky inspector general. He's a moron.
 
But how do you dispute the fact that none of the defendants' DNA was found on the bodies? And none of the defendants' teeth marks matched the bite marks on the victims. The knife found in the lake behind Jason's house was proven by a forensic pathologist to not have been used in the murders. Those scientific facts should be enough to throw out their conviction.

But the juryies never saw any of this at either trial. That's the sad part. This trials should have been moved out of state, where all of the evidence should have been permitted. Terry Hobbs in that third part of the documentary is now even MORE suspicious to me than I remember. Mark Byers diagram of guilty reasons for TH in the third part of the series was great!. Where was TH between about 6:30-8:30 on the night of the murders? He has no alibi and had an abuisive psast with his wife and son.

Jason's thoughts at the end were very powerful statements about the problems with our legal system. If the WM3 did this, they sure did a job of covering up all the blood evidence, moving the bodies, hiding the clothes, mutilating CB's genitalia. It would really take at least three grown men to pull this off successfully.

People still think Damian did this, but as a practicing Wiccan, Wiccan's don't worship the devil. They are into the sorcery and mystery of magic and witchcraft. But they also believe that anything you do in life that is good or bad, comes back to you. If Damian had participated in the murders of those kids, he would expect something bad to happen to him for his evil act. And a practicing Wiccan would not take that kind of a risk. Getting caught in such a small town, would be too great a risk for the kids. We don't even have a motive for the crime. But if you look at Terry Hobbs or the Bojangles Guy, the fact that they were never in questioned shows terrible police work.

Satch

First off, no one's DNA was found on the victims. Including TH. So yes, I agree there wasn't a lot of evidence, but what should have had DE and JB's convictions dismissed before anything, was the jury foreman introducing JM's confession in deliberations. That was clearly stated by the judge as forbidden. That said, JM's conviction was technically sound -- there was nothing there that should have had his conviction overturned, if you're being fair and objective. He confessed to a crime, multiple times, and was convicted by a jury with no jury misconduct behind the scenes. Even if you think it was a weak confession, the jury did not.

Second, if you ask one set of (hired, and I'm sure paid) experts, they'll tell you there are human bite marks on SB. If you ask another set, they'll say there are no human bite marks at all. Same with the immasculation: some will say it's turtles, others will say it was with a knife. Werner Spitz -- the "most renowned forensic pathologist," (supposedly) has claimed there's a human bite mark and the turtle immasculation. But look into his record. It's horrendous. He's sided with some of the worst opinions in other murder cases I've ever seen -- I won't recap them (too lazy), you can google it yourself. In this case, he said the basilar skull fractures were caused on the victims when dogs grabbed each boy by their teeth and smashed them against trees -- yes, he said with a straight face that dogs caused the skull fractures, which is probably the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard with regard to this case. It's shameful.

It has never been definitively proven that there is a human bite mark, because it simply isn't.

Also, the number 3 is important to Wiccans, and the penis is a powerful symbol in the religion, according to other Wiccans who called in the Bob Ruff's podcast when he was examining the case. There were other things that they brought up too, like the importance of water, etc. DE wasn't just "wiccan." He was many things, and he did have a fascination with Aleister Crawley -- still does actually. Many, many people have confirmed this, including Deaana Holcomb, his girlfriend before DT.

That said, this case doesn't have to solely be a based on religion or satanism or a ritualistic killing -- I think, if teens (be it the WM3 or other teens) did do this, it was simply a bullying-gone-wrong scenario.
 
First off, no one's DNA was found on the victims. Including TH. So yes, I agree there wasn't a lot of evidence, but what should have had DE and JB's convictions dismissed before anything, was the jury foreman introducing JM's confession in deliberations. That was clearly stated by the judge as forbidden. That said, JM's conviction was technically sound -- there was nothing there that should have had his conviction overturned, if you're being fair and objective. He confessed to a crime, multiple times, and was convicted by a jury with no jury misconduct behind the scenes. Even if you think it was a weak confession, the jury did not.

Second, if you ask one set of (hired, and I'm sure paid) experts, they'll tell you there are human bite marks on SB. If you ask another set, they'll say there are no human bite marks at all. Same with the immasculation: some will say it's turtles, others will say it was with a knife. Werner Spitz -- the "most renowned forensic pathologist," (supposedly) has claimed there's a human bite mark and the turtle immasculation. But look into his record. It's horrendous. He's sided with some of the worst opinions in other murder cases I've ever seen -- I won't recap them (too lazy), you can google it yourself. In this case, he said the basilar skull fractures were caused on the victims when dogs grabbed each boy by their teeth and smashed them against trees -- yes, he said with a straight face that dogs caused the skull fractures, which is probably the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard with regard to this case. It's shameful.

It has never been definitively proven that there is a human bite mark, because it simply isn't.

Also, the number 3 is important to Wiccans, and the penis is a powerful symbol in the religion, according to other Wiccans who called in the Bob Ruff's podcast when he was examining the case. There were other things that they brought up too, like the importance of water, etc. DE wasn't just "wiccan." He was many things, and he did have a fascination with Aleister Crawley -- still does actually. Many, many people have confirmed this, including Deaana Holcomb, his girlfriend before DT.

That said, this case doesn't have to solely be a based on religion or satanism or a ritualistic killing -- I think, if teens (be it the WM3 or other teens) did do this, it was simply a bullying-gone-wrong scenario.

All true. Supporters "gotcha" that the WM3's DNA wasn't found isn't a gotcha at all.

3 adults had to have done this? Yeah, one adult and 2 almost adults did it. 3 guys in their late teens are more than capable of doing this to 3 8 year old children.

Why do you ignore all the evidence against them and work so hard to convince yourself they "railroaded" these guys?

I'm always baffled as to why supporters believe they are INNOCENT, not just "not guilty". What proof is there that they are INNOCENT? None.
 
All true. Supporters "gotcha" that the WM3's DNA wasn't found isn't a gotcha at all.

3 adults had to have done this? Yeah, one adult and 2 almost adults did it. 3 guys in their late teens are more than capable of doing this to 3 8 year old children.

Why do you ignore all the evidence against them and work so hard to convince yourself they "railroaded" these guys?

I'm always baffled as to why supporters believe they are INNOCENT, not just "not guilty". What proof is there that they are INNOCENT? None.

There is NO exculpatory evidence, despite the fact that the WM3 lied and said there was. Where is it? Where?
 
I also forget:

1.) Why wasn't JM allowed to have a lawyer during his 12 hour interrogation? That's just basic defendants rights that were ignored by LE.
2.) It is claimed that JM was interrogated for over 12 hours, but West Memphis, Arkansas PD only has 45 minutes of audio tape? Isn't there something illegal or at the very least unethical about that?
3.) Were these mentioned by defense either pre or post-trial? And if they were, why would the judge allow that evidence?


Satch
 
@Satch
reg. point 1 and 2:

12 hours is not correct. and i actually thought "WTF" when i heard it in PL3 (i believe was it) because it is just not accurate and they had to know that.
i noted: around 3pm was it when jessie gave his first, and then his second statement. it was morning when they brought him in. so anybody can do the math...

it was some hours, and fact is there is only about 30 minuts on tape, or 45, as you said. also there was no camera in the room. so nobody really knows what happened during most of the time. i personally believe that they showed him pics of the bodies, and got to him with cheap little mind tricks. you could fool a kid into confessing to something and jessie behaved like a kid as it seemed to me.

and to point 3 - i don't actually understand the question i guess.
anyway, people KNEW about jessies confession. read the june 93 newspaper articles, linked on callahan .. of course they talk about jessie saying damien took a knife etc.
or do you mean if his confession was mentioned during the echols/baldwin trial?
 
@Satch
reg. point 1 and 2:

12 hours is not correct. and i actually thought "WTF" when i heard it in PL3 (i believe was it) because it is just not accurate and they had to know that.
i noted: around 3pm was it when jessie gave his first, and then his second statement. it was morning when they brought him in. so anybody can do the math...

it was some hours, and fact is there is only about 30 minuts on tape, or 45, as you said. also there was no camera in the room. so nobody really knows what happened during most of the time. i personally believe that they showed him pics of the bodies, and got to him with cheap little mind tricks. you could fool a kid into confessing to something and jessie behaved like a kid as it seemed to me.

and to point 3 - i don't actually understand the question i guess.
anyway, people KNEW about jessies confession. read the june 93 newspaper articles, linked on callahan .. of course they talk about jessie saying damien took a knife etc.
or do you mean if his confession was mentioned during the echols/baldwin trial?

Jessie should have said, "I will only talk with an attorney present." He did not have an attorney present during questioning. That is a violation of his rights. WMP, thought they could do what they wanted when they wanted, because these are just kids IMO.

I am not however convinced of Jessie's low IQ. He sounds more intelligent than given credit.

Satch
 

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