Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #28

[Deleted member 230544]

Just MOO but the autopsy findings and photos will be pretty gut-wrenching and visceral with awful details of how the victims were killed and what happened to their bodies after being placed in crude oil and a shallow grave. The contents would be all over the media and possibly taint potential jurors.

Not familiar with US procedures, are you saying that when the autopsy reports eventually are released publicly, they will show photos of the victims along with the written descriptions? I would have thought a ban of releasing photos would be in place and the only photos available would be shown in court and if the trial is televised, they would not show the images on tv.

 

[rigsby2]

Edited for duplicate quote.

JMO, but I concur that she was involved in some manner with the appointment. Am I dreaming that she also told NUA that she would be needing her in the future?

I don't know if someone already responded, but if I recall it was something like SW said she was going to need her more than ever when she got home.

I feel this supports SW preparing to separate and leaning on her friends, and she had much support, which is a huge factor. She was ready perhaps he was not. MOO, JMO.

 

[MKZoo]

Agree. HIS parenting has not been picked apart nearly as much as hers. When he is mentioned in reference to the videos, it's generally in a "poor Chris, Shanann is bullying him" kind of way. The argument seems to be that "we're not saying the murder was justified, just trying to figure out the dynamics of the marriage" but that sure doesn't feel like what's going on.It very much sounds like her murder is being justified because she was bossy/anal retentive/ambitious/possibly a hypochondriac. Sometimes (a lot of times) people kill for their own selfish reasons and it has zero to do with the partner-they are just collateral damage. The catalyst may have been totally on his end. She is dead, Chris killed her and put her body in a shallow grave and lied about it on national television. So why is she being analyzed more than him?

I think the fact that we just have so much material from her is creating this impression that CW was some sort of blank slate she wrote on with her bossiness and closet organization.

He was in his late 20s when they met. In other words a grown bleep man. She didn’t somehow create a killer by making him join in a bunch of videos. Imo, the killer was there somewhere all along.

 

[Thepoet]

Delete

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Not at all! I'm talking about the general opinion out there, other forums are not as well behaved as WS and what they are saying about her is terrible and all based on her MLM/SM.

We aren’t allowed to bring other forums to the threads. JMO

 

[Mrspratcher]

At some point we are going to get to see actual video of his statements.

It will be fascinating.

That day can’t come soon enough!

 

[AmaranthaRuth]

About the footprint on a bag, I thought I’d read it was found at the oil site (I could be wrong.) I’ve been wondering about that a lot...thinking, thinking...and this occurred to me:

I’ve read of lots of cases where a shoe or boot print left at a crime scene helped prove identities. (Probably half of what I’m remembering was in crime novels, but it seems to be a common enough theme.)

Could CW have been trying to avoid this?

I do doubt he’d drive there barefoot. But perhaps, once there, he took his boots and socks off in the truck and covered his feet with bags while doing what he was doing there.

He may have gotten panicked while leaving and left a bag by mistake, or it blew away.

In any case, I haven’t seen the issue of shoe prints being addressed. Granted, it’s a known that he was there by now, so you’d expect some.

I guess my thought is that, if he planned ahead to cover his bootprints, it shows quite a lot more premeditation IMO.

Just a curiosity, not even an opinion!

 

[gitana1]

Ok, I'm going to be very blunt here and state why I think SW is being victimized MOO MOO:
Because she was popular, very attractive, had a beautiful family with a handsome husband and seemed to have it all despite various health issues and challenges that she faced. I think some people are resentful of her and have a sense of schadenfreude now that she's gone and her "perfect" life can be picked apart. Envy, resentment, jealousy...

There's also this aspect I feel, that I posted about previously, which is kind of anger and resentment at people who use social media, who post about their perfect lives which cause others to feel badly about their own. That bad feeling can actually go as far as depression:

"The irony of Facebook is by now known to most. The “social” network has been linked to a surprising number of undesirable mental health consequences: Depression, low self-esteem, and bitter jealousy among them.."
New Study Links Facebook To Depression: But Now We Actually Understand Why.

I can't forget the actual male friend of Shanann who early on made a statement to the media that her life on social media was so perfect that he "had to block her" . Which I continue to think is quite bizarre but indicates the level of jealousy and rage people have at those who are excessively positive and post wonderful things on FB. (I mean just get off social media or unfollow the person).

That coupled with societal attitudes about femininity -what a good mother looks like, what a good wife looks like - I think combine to cause harsh criticism of a dead woman.

 

[Curiouslycuriousoli]

First time poster, eek!
I find it interesting in the motion by the prosecution to seal the autopsy results that they mention that the cause of death has not been made public. Makes me question if they were indeed strangled

 

[Deleted member 182072]

...For all we know, it could be CW who was strict and SW is just following his parenting style. One thing is obvious: Blaming SW and making up psychological maladies about a pregnant murder victim is completely unacceptable. We all know who the killer is and he's sitting in a jail cell under suicide watch. MOO.

SBM
I think you might be onto something about CW possibly being the stricter parent. Remember in his interview how he said he missed telling them that they wouldn't get their dessert if they didn't finish their dinner.

 

[Deleted member 230544]

I even think his 'plan' was to go back another time later and fix that shallow grave problem. Anything could happen... animals or something could uncover.

I am still wondering if CW had one or maybe two victims in the back seat when he was contacted by NU at 12 pm. It could explain why CW did not get back to their home until after the first officer was dispatched at 1:40 pm. That is a huge gap in time imo that CW has not accounted for in the affidavit.

 

[nwmouse]

Not familiar with US procedures, are you saying that when the autopsy reports eventually are released publicly, they will show photos of the victims along with the written descriptions? I would have thought a ban of releasing photos would be in place and the only photos available would be shown in court and if the trial is televised, they would not show the images on tv.

I hope an expert can chime in here. During the JA trial, photos of TA's body etc were leaked online and it was horrific to see.

 

[Davia18]

About the footprint on a bag, I thought I’d read it was found at the oil site (I could be wrong.) I’ve been wondering about that a lot...thinking, thinking...and this occurred to me:

I’ve read of lots of cases where a shoe or boot print left at a crime scene helped prove identities. (Probably half of what I’m remembering was in crime novels, but it seems to be a common enough theme.)

Could CW have been trying to avoid this?

I do doubt he’d drive there barefoot. But perhaps, once there, he took his boots and socks off in the truck and covered his feet with bags while doing what he was doing there.

He may have gotten panicked while leaving and left a bag by mistake, or it blew away.

In any case, I haven’t seen the issue of shoe prints being addressed. Granted, it’s a known that he was there by now, so you’d expect some.

I guess my thought is that, if he planned ahead to cover his bootprints, it shows quite a lot more premeditation IMO.

Just a curiosity, not even an opinion!

Good thinking, he didn't plan on confessing as he was disposing the bodies so therefore he wouldn't want his boot prints there if they were found. You could be onto something here.

 

[Deleted member 230544]

I even think his 'plan' was to go back another time later and fix that shallow grave problem. Anything could happen... animals or something could uncover.

I am still wondering if CW had one or maybe two victims in the back seat when he was contacted by NU at 12 pm. It could explain why CW did not get back to their home until after the first officer was dispatched at 1:40 pm. That is a huge gap in time imo that CW has not accounted for in the affidavit.

 

[Davia18]

About the footprint on a bag, I thought I’d read it was found at the oil site (I could be wrong.) I’ve been wondering about that a lot...thinking, thinking...and this occurred to me:

I’ve read of lots of cases where a shoe or boot print left at a crime scene helped prove identities. (Probably half of what I’m remembering was in crime novels, but it seems to be a common enough theme.)

Could CW have been trying to avoid this?

I do doubt he’d drive there barefoot. But perhaps, once there, he took his boots and socks off in the truck and covered his feet with bags while doing what he was doing there.

He may have gotten panicked while leaving and left a bag by mistake, or it blew away.

In any case, I haven’t seen the issue of shoe prints being addressed. Granted, it’s a known that he was there by now, so you’d expect some.

I guess my thought is that, if he planned ahead to cover his bootprints, it shows quite a lot more premeditation IMO.

Just a curiosity, not even an opinion!

Good thinking, he didn't plan on confessing as he was disposing the bodies so therefore he wouldn't want his boot prints there if they were found. You could be onto something here.

 

[PommyMommy]

I'm also on the train this was nothing more than wanting to carry on his new relationship. He was done being a father and husband and he couldn't just leave because his perfect persona would then be tainted and he'd be the bad guy.
I also believe he planned on staging things but SW, the girls and Nico had and angel watching out NAU. Of course this is all JMO

ETA : Welcome to WS

Oh gosh, you made me look back at this article. I encourage you to read it if you haven't already.

Entitled Shame, Family Annihilators, and Toxic Masculinity | HuffPost
Another possibility suggests itself: maybe annihilators kill themselves because they now lack an audience. His achievement of freedom from shame leaves him free, but lonely. His murders remove the problem, and the point, of his being. He is no longer humiliated; but he has lost the others whose admiration felt like an existential necessity. It was an existential necessity, when it came down to it. He made it so.

 

[gitana1]

Hello,
I'm new to Websleuths - and as a short "warning" I'm not a native speaker.

I'm following this case from the beginning. My theory was/is that CW was always in the background perhaps not a great talker and kept maybe many things to himself. He would eventuelly never communicate to Shannan that he was hurt by her words or her any of her actions (just as an example!!). But he felt more and more anger towards her.
Yes of course he probably never loved her but if he did I could imagine that his feelings towards her faded slowly away but he simply never told her - maybe to avoid any arguments. Just choosing the easisest way ("out"). Because of this "unstable" relationship he was open towards many affairs. Shannan thought she had found the man of her life and had no clue she and her babies were in serious danger.

I just thought that he might have had really fallen in love with one of his affairs and on his mind he was already checking out of the marriage with Shannan but only *in his mind*. He might have told the AP "we are going to seperate" while playing the perfect husband und father at home just to avoid stress and discussions. At least until a few weeks prior the murders. I also believe that his AP somehow learned that Shannan was pregnant again. While he might have told her that they had nothing to do with each other anymore (except for the children). Now the AP knew that they were still "active" (you know what I mean ) and this might have been a big problem to her. She felt betrayed and wanted probably to end the affair which she believed would turn out someday as a real "relationship" between them two. (On the interview he mentioned that they had talked about a separation. One of my first thoughts was that this was directed to his AP)

I always thought that this could have lead him to kill his entire family. Either to get rid of them as soon as possible or to even "punish" them for being in his way after an argument with the AP. And because of his lack of communication he might have felt like a bird in the cave... But this is just *my theory*.

If it just had been because of Shannan being "bossy" or too dominant I really doubt the kids would have been dead by now. Of course there is still the possibilty that they just witnessed the murder of her mother. But I find this more unlikly because if there had been any loud noises besides the barking dog which caused the girls to wake up I think the neighbours had heard them as well.

This is such a tragic… all had the live ahead of them. Even CW. How could anybody hurt this wunderful little girls with their cute pigtails and than placing them in crude oil - alone in dark oil / gas tanks. I just can't understand how this was a possibilty to him. And I never will no matter what might have really happend that night or the days/weeks/months/years prior. They will never see the sunlight again or listen to their favorite song on the radio.... never eat their favorite food doing things they liked. I feel so unbelieveable sorry for all of them.

Thoughtful first post. Welcome.

 

[MassGuy]

I think the fact that we just have so much material from her is creating this impression that CW was some sort of blank slate she wrote on with her bossiness and closet organization.

He was in his late 20s when they met. In other words a grown bleep man. She didn’t somehow create a killer by making him join in a bunch of videos. Imo, the killer was there somewhere all along.

Exactly. She didn’t create a killer by “being mean” to him in some Facebook videos.

Whatever it is that is wrong with him, was always lurking beneath the surface.

 

[gitana1]

First time poster, eek!
I find it interesting in the motion by the prosecution to seal the autopsy results that they mention that the cause of death has not been made public. Makes me question if they were indeed strangled

Welcome!! Yeah, others have wondered about that as well. Autopsies reveal a ton of stuff though. Not just COD!!!

 

[PommyMommy]

Delete...duplicate post

 

[rainynights]

I was watching the ABC Nightline video and (at 2:13), you can get a pretty good (not great) shot of the doorbell camera.



I’m not a doorbell camera expert, but I don't think it looks anything like any of the Ring models I've seen online. My official guess as to which doorbell camera they had would be a Vivint Doorbell Camera, based on shape, size, and colors.



If this was the model used by CW/SW, there is also a Vivint Smart Home app that CW could have downloaded to his phone, which would have given him access to the live feed the day NUA showed up.

Interestingly enough, Vivint is also the maker of Streety app, which apparently allows neighbors to share live feeds and recorded clips with others in the neighborhood. This would require a separate app download.

If this Streety app was used in the neighborhood, according to this article posted by Vivint, “Neighbors with non-Vivint cameras can also upload and share video clips with their trusted Streety network.”

Perhaps a worried neighbor had immediately shared some pre-recorded videos with CW using that or a similar app, which would explain how he knew about the exact timing of SW's arrival at the house, and the point in which he backed up his truck into the garage.

I doubt that LE would have let CW know this information prior to the interviews.

JMO.

 

[Johnny1181]

First time poster, eek!
I find it interesting in the motion by the prosecution to seal the autopsy results that they mention that the cause of death has not been made public. Makes me question if they were indeed strangled

Welcome! I wonder if the reason they say the COD has not been made public is because it hasn't been officially released.

All of the information we have about COD is from CW's confession to strangling Shanann and causing the death of Nico, then dumping the girls in oil tanks and burying Shanann and Nico. IMO

 

[Johnny1181]

Deleted by me, duplicate post

 

[gitana1]

I know this post is from a few pages ago but I can't agree more. The fact is, some people are just more likable than others. In life, there are going to be people who rub us the wrong way. Someone that you find really engaging and warm may come off to me as calculating and fake. It is totally subjective and just a fact of life. None of it has anything to do with whether someone should have been killed. The tendency to find "bad victims" is so dangerous for us as a society. There's a reason marginalized women and women in disadvantaged groups are so much less likely to come forward and report a crime. If people will find fault with a married stay-at-home mom battling chronic illness trying to support her family, what would they have to say about a sex worker or recovering addict? It is shameful and I hope people think twice before participating in victim blaming. It is not a game. No one deserves to be brutally murdered.

Wow. Thank you for this.

 

[rigsby2]

I don't see any grief either. And that is one of the main reasons I don't believe his version of the story.

He said that he saw SW strangling the baby, and in a fit of rage, he strangled her, killing his unborn child. How grief stricken would a man be, to see his 2 girls strangled to death, and then to be forced to kill his unborn son nd his wife?

But the next day, we see a nervous jumpy, but smiley man, who made small talk about his favorite shirt. Not a broken, grief stricken man, like we saw when SW's father spoke.

By the time of he ' confessed' they already had him, he knew it... IMO he blamed the murder of those sweet girls on SW as a desperate hail Mary , trying to remove himself from the despicable acts, since he was already caught.

Didn't Ronald DeFeo Jr try the same thing, blaming his sister then his mother for the slaughter of the family? I'm sure there have been many others. Interesting how they try to blame the women.

 

[MyBelle]

I don't see nitty gritty. I see them choked until death and then put about the only place he could possibly hope to get away with it. I would think knife/hatchet/gunshots/etc would be much more gritty.
I am thinking there is something in there that the prosecution needs to straighten out completely before the defense and public get a hold of it. Not that I think that it will not point to CW, but it is them not wanting CW to concoct a new 'story' that fits the autopsy evidence. If they have everything 'crossed' he will not get that chance when the information is disclosed.
I just don't know... it is confusing me.

The defense will see the autopsy reports. CW has already accused SW of murdering Bella and that he interrupted her strangling CeCe. If the autopsy report doesn't support his claim, the best the defense could do is negotiate some kind of a plea deal. JMO

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

There's also this aspect I feel, that I posted about previously, which is kind of anger and resentment at people who use social media, who post about their perfect lives which cause others to feel badly about their own. That bad feeling can actually go as far as depression:

"The irony of Facebook is by now known to most. The “social” network has been linked to a surprising number of undesirable mental health consequences: Depression, low self-esteem, and bitter jealousy among them.."
New Study Links Facebook To Depression: But Now We Actually Understand Why.

I can't forget the actual male friend of Shanann who early on made a statement to the media that her life on social media was so perfect that he "had to block her" . Which I continue to think is quite bizarre but indicates the level of jealousy and rage people have at those who are excessively positive and post wonderful things on FB. (I mean just get off social media or unfollow the person).

That coupled with societal attitudes about femininity -what a good mother looks like, what a good wife looks like - I think combine to cause harsh criticism of a dead woman.

I'm trying to "like" this post, and it won't let me...

 

[Thepoet]

I believe that the murders were premeditated and proof of that is; there was structure that crumbled. It wasn't chaos from the beginning! What if SW's flight had been on time? Would CW have gone to the site 3 hours earlier when the neighborhood was asleep (not knowing about cameras or thinking they were off)? Would he have had the time to deal with SW's body? Would he have remembered/seen the sheet? Were the oil tanks his original plan? What if NAU hadn't shown up, but had only called CW. Had not been persistent? Would he then have had more time to organize and clean up? Pull himself together?

Two unforeseen factors changed everything! CW obviously is abnormal and the changes probably greatly affected his actions. Could CW have thought everything was perfectly planned? Did he relax, grill a steak, start to follow a timetable that was abruptly changed? Did he make mistakes from the beginning or did he begin to make mistakes when his plans were disrupted?

 

[Marli61]

If the murders of the children are especially gruesome, which they certainly are, then the public will be horrified at the autopsy results. The DA does not want a jury pool, like they had with the Casey Anthony trial.

There was a high percentage of potential jurors who had already made up their minds that CA was guilty. All of those jurors had to be swiped left. So the few that were not 'tainted' by the media reports, were often ambivalent and not able to 'connect the dots.'

I really think the State is already looking ahead to the trial, and trying to protect their jury pool, so they don't end up with a similar fate.

I asked this before... what does everyone think the chance is of the jury being sequestered?

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Not at all! I'm talking about the general opinion out there, other forums are not as well behaved as WS and what they are saying about her is terrible and all based on her MLM/SM.

I agree some of the things being said about SW are terrible. It’s just hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that anyone could feel envy, jealousy and resentment towards SW. I mean how could anyone feel that way towards her when everyone knows her husband killed her? JMO

 

[WildWest]

I wonder if this will be a capital case and if the DA will go for the DP? AFAIK it will only be announced next year since they have 63 days after his arraignment to announce if its a DP case? I wonder if District Attorney Michael Rourke will be prosecuting since its quite a high profile case? I know little about him other than his weld da profile page and his press conference this week. Seems a pretty tough guy!

I apologize, I am not versed on legal jargon, I think I wrote the correct word the legal expert was talking about, I could be wrong.

Do we know if they had a freezer or somewhere to keep bodies until SW came home? It seems like a lot to have done in a short time and then drive to the oil field and back after disposing of the bodies. I would think that CW would have felt some emotion in that time.

(shudders)

 

[Jennifer17]

I agree some of the things being said about SW are terrible. It’s just hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that anyone could feel envy, jealousy and resentment towards SW. I mean how could anyone feel that way towards her when everyone knows her husband killed her? JMO

So what is your theory on why she has been solely blamed for things when her husband was fully involved in them too?
Why has she been blamed and people suggesting she has a mental illness for taking her children to the doctors too much?

 

[katydid23]

Agree. HIS parenting has not been picked apart nearly as much as hers. When he is mentioned in reference to the videos, it's generally in a "poor Chris, Shanann is bullying him" kind of way. The argument seems to be that "we're not saying the murder was justified, just trying to figure out the dynamics of the marriage" but that sure doesn't feel like what's going on.It very much sounds like her murder is being justified because she was bossy/anal retentive/ambitious/possibly a hypochondriac. Sometimes (a lot of times) people kill for their own selfish reasons and it has zero to do with the partner-they are just collateral damage. The catalyst may have been totally on his end. She is dead, Chris killed her and put her body in a shallow grave and lied about it on national television. So why is she being analyzed more than him?

As to the bolded, she is being analyzed more then him because some want to prove that she was the one that snapped and killed the kids. So if it can be shown that she 'cruelly attacked' the children with whipped cream, squirt bottles and Santa's lap, then they are making headway. JMO

 

[Mo Thuairim]

Finally! Defence's responses are up...
Colorado Judicial Branch

ETA: Defence don't yet have coroner's report

 

[Harmony 2]

Thread #29 is open for posting. This thread will close in 10 minutes.

Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #29

 

[MKZoo]

I asked this before... what does everyone think the chance is of the jury being sequestered?

I think it is a really interesting question. I don’t know how often or what type of case in CO would warrant sequestration. I’d guess this would be one but who knows.

It certainly protects the jury from being bothered by friends and the media about the case. It guards against them hearing the latest “bombshell tonight”. Those are probably good things.

From the practical perspective it’s expensive for the state and very tough on jurors.

I’d be interested in what our trial lawyers think about it. Does a sequestered jury in a case like this end up just wanting a fast verdict because they want to be done with it? That’s always my concern either way.

 

[MassGuy]

I believe that the murders were premeditated and proof of that is; there was structure that crumbled. It wasn't chaos from the beginning! What if SW's flight had been on time? Would CW have gone to the site 3 hours earlier when the neighborhood was asleep (not knowing about cameras or thinking they were off)? Would he have had the time to deal with SW's body? Would he have remembered/seen the sheet? Were the oil tanks his original plan? What if NAU hadn't shown up, but had only called CW. Had not been persistent? Would he then have had more time to organize and clean up? Pull himself together?

Two unforeseen factors changed everything! CW obviously is abnormal and the changes probably greatly affected his actions. Could CW have thought everything was perfectly planned? Did he relax, grill a steak, start to follow a timetable that was abruptly changed? Did he make mistakes from the beginning or did he begin to make mistakes when his plans were disrupted?

I agree that his plan went awry, but a well planned plot coming off the tracks, isn’t proof that it was well planned to begin with.

It’s absolutely possible that you’re right, and this was entirely premeditated. When things didn’t go according to plan, the appearance of the crime would be an ill conceived one.

But here’s an alternate scenario, one that I think is almost as likely:

CW has thought about killing his family before, even thinking about the process he would undertake to dispose of them.

The night in question, CW and Shanann have an explosive argument. During the course of the fight, his rage gets the better of him and he kills his wife.

At this point, he decides to go the distance, and carry out the plan that he has previously envisioned.

So I think two things are likely. This was entirely premeditated, or it was a bit of a mixture.

 

[RachB65]

Edited for duplicate quote.

JMO, but I concur that she was involved in some manner with the appointment. Am I dreaming that she also told NUA that she would be needing her in the future?

I also remember hearing that she told a friend, not sure which one, that she would be needing their support when she returned from NC/AZ because her and Chris would probably be separating.