OH - Pike County: 8 People From One Family Dead As Police Hunt For Killer(s) #34 *Arrests*

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How much time would have to elapse between CR1’s death and the others for the decomposition rate to be enough different to be notable? Since a TOD difference between the others wasn’t mentioned, and we can logically conclude that the other 7 weren’t killed at the same exact time, I would think it must be several hours.

Thoughts?
Kind of gross but this tells the stages of decomposition:
http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/zalaczniki/upload617.pdf
 
That sounds reasonable, but it seems some of the Wagners were involved in some way. If it were a cartel hit, they were working with local people in their business and in setting up the murders. In recent years, cartels have been working with white supremacist groups. Research has indicated the W's may be involved with that crowd and now benefit from their protection.

Just because there may have been cartel involvement, locals shouldn't write off solving the murders. They need to go after the local associates and work from there.
Exactly how I feel.The W's come from money from what I understand and were involved in some shady people and dealings so it's not out of any stretch of the imagination that they could have easily planned this along with some prominent people that know how to get dirty deeds done.

From the first week after this happened I have always felt the IH were involved.Just my opinion,
 
I was completely shocked to find out that CSR was killed first.. It totally threw off several of my theories. One of my theories was based on the killers killing some/all of the victims in front of CSR for the purpose(s)of: gaining intel, location of drugs/money and/or to make CSR suffer for something. But what if killing CSR first was not the initial plan? What if he ran, hid and/or was combative (as I am sure he would have been from what I have heard) therefore one of the gunshots ended up fatal instead of an intended “cautionary gunshot wound”. From everything I have ever heard, CSR had guns and had them within arm’s reach at all times therefore the killers had to subdue him quickly by wounding him- maybe it went too far due to CSR’s action/reactions by being shot through a bedroom door- he was in that room either hiding from visitors or getting something for the visitors… or he could have been shot and killed by one of the killers who was trigger happy, killing him prior to when they had planned. But why would they then kill everyone else? The only reasons that I can fit into this theory would be that CSR was aware of a planned visit from one/all of the killers therefore the killers could assume that the ones closes to him (FR, DR, KR, GR) would know “he/she/they” were visiting CSR that evening. Once the visit went south and CSR ended up dead before the killers planned, they knew that the ones closes to him had to be taken care of too.


That then circles back around to GR. From everything that I have read (news articles, FB, Topix, etc.) GR would have been in the trailer with CSR that night when trouble arrived. If he was there and my theory above is correct and CSR ran/hid/combative-what was GR doing? Was he just sitting there obeying the killers while CSR fought to get away/react/hide? Was GR aware of the “visitors” intentions that night? I do not think (or hope) that he was fully aware that 7 of his family members and himself would be murdered so viciously that night, but maybe GR was aware of a far less violent plan and was forced/bribed/indebted to the killers so he somewhat assisted- unknown to him that everyone else was going to be involved, much less murdered.


I also want to state that I have read that GR was an addict and that Chris was helping him get sober and on the right path. I understand fully that addicts can burn bridges by stealing, lying, cheating, etc. therefore he could have had many enemies however I do not think the killers were there for only GR- if they were there for only GR, I could see them killing CSR first and then dealing with GR but I do not see them also killing all of CSR’s core family. Which leads back to my initial theory that possibly CSR was “accidentally” killed earlier than the killers had planned him to be. With CSR being the patriarch of the family members that were murdered, it just does not make sense for him to be killed first unless it was an accident or possibly to get him out of the way.

Could be that GR wasn't there yet, but, was on the way, and they were gonna wait for him. They go on over to FR's place, maybe even got keys off CR1. Take care of business at FR's place, then sit and wait for GR. He may never known what hit him. Shot him as he came inside. Drag him to the back, b/c time is of the essence. May have been three. One stayed to take care of GR. He doesn't seem the type to carry. They think that if the doors are locked, no one would think much about it, couldn't see a body through any of the windows/doors, and it would give them extra time before they find the bodies. They don't think about BJM getting a key and rolling up inside the house. I'd not do that unless I thought something was very "off". She obviously did... dogs outside, maybe the usual vehicle was there, etc... She was practically a R herself.
 
How far apart were the trailers of CR1 and FR? TIA
From what I can remember,maybe 100 yards if that.That's a football field and I don't think it was even that far.I've been up and down that road and it's hard to imagine all those shots over at Sr's place without FR and HG hearing anything.I'm thinking maybe they were hit at the same time by 2 different sets of perps.
 
I have always wondered how many shots were fired for each victim. It would completely change the scenario if there were, say, 6 shots fired and only two hit the victims head. We know how many shots each victim got and where, but what if there were more? Someone shooting in the dark would have missed at least a few times. Barring use of nightvision.
My opinion is this was no professional or cartel. This was very personal. There is hate and rage behind that many bullets in so many members of the same family. Someone hate them so much they decided they all have to die. No professional or cartel would wait around for hours after killing CRsr to kill everyone else. I would think professional or cartel would be in and out as quick as possible. This is all just my opinion.
 
From what I can remember,maybe 100 yards if that.That's a football field and I don't think it was even that far.I've been up and down that road and it's hard to imagine all those shots over at Sr's place without FR and HG hearing anything.I'm thinking maybe they were hit at the same time by 2 different sets of perps.

That's possible, but way back we talked about the killers using silencers on their weapons. We figured they would be nearly deaf shooting so many people in the different homes that night. If they used silencers, FR & HG may not have heard the shots, especially if they were asleep. Even so, the killers would be taking a risk.

RSD1200's theory might work, too, with the killers going next door to kill FR and HG while they waited for GR to return.
Right now, we don't have enough information to know for sure.
 
I have always wondered how many shots were fired for each victim. It would completely change the scenario if there were, say, 6 shots fired and only two hit the victims head. We know how many shots each victim got and where, but what if there were more? Someone shooting in the dark would have missed at least a few times. Barring use of nightvision.
My opinion is this was no professional or cartel. This was very personal. There is hate and rage behind that many bullets in so many members of the same family. Someone hate them so much they decided they all have to die. No professional or cartel would wait around for hours after killing CRsr to kill everyone else. I would think professional or cartel would be in and out as quick as possible. This is all just my opinion.

I agree, there may have been more shots fired that didn't strike the victims. I still have a difficult time believing this was done by family members - people who had never murdered anyone before. I'm not aware of any hate or rage that existed prior to the murders among members of the Rhoden family. There have been no police reports of prior physical fights, etc. among family members, nor any personal reports, either. Intra-family rage killings similar to this usually end up with the killer committing suicide or easily identified by LE. Anyone with so much rage in a family annihilation killing is usually going to exhibit some obvious emotional dysfunction afterwards. They don't usually slaughter close relatives en masse, then put on a normal face and go back to their usual daily life. They usually behave oddly, retreat, go into hiding, etc.
 
How far apart were the trailers of CR1 and FR? TIA
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Here is a visual so you can see structures and trees, etc. between the 2 trailers as well as the distance. I measured the distance as approx. 261 feet and that is demonstrated by the red line from the far right side wall of CSR's trailer to the far left side wall of FR's. Photo is taken from 2017/Google Earth.
 

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I agree, there may have been more shots fired that didn't strike the victims. I still have a difficult time believing this was done by family members - people who had never murdered anyone before. I'm not aware of any hate or rage that existed prior to the murders among members of the Rhoden family. There have been no police reports of prior physical fights, etc. among family members, nor any personal reports, either. Intra-family rage killings similar to this usually end up with the killer committing suicide or easily identified by LE. Anyone with so much rage in a family annihilation killing is usually going to exhibit some obvious emotional dysfunction afterwards. They don't usually slaughter close relatives en masse, then put on a normal face and go back to their usual daily life. They usually behave oddly, retreat, go into hiding, etc.
I don't think this was family that did the killing. Just that it was and is very personal. This screams hate and rage. I think it was someone they knew well. The dogs, getting in the houses, knowing when victims would be home and/or in bed, shots to the face. I agree, it probably wasn't family. It was someone very close to them. I think that's why I am so bothered by this case.
 
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Here is a visual so you can see structures and trees, etc. between the 2 trailers as well as the distance. I measured the distance as approx. 261 feet and that is demonstrated by the red line from the far right side wall of CSR's trailer to the far left side wall of FR's. Photo is taken from 2017/Google Earth.

Thank you very much. That's a great graphic! From the beginning, I thought separate teams of killers went to each home. RSD1200's theory sounds plausible, too.

We've had discussions here many times in the past about dogs barking outside, too. If CR1's dog was put outside when the killers came in, it would have been outside barking during the murders, along with all the other dogs outside. Some here have pointed out, though, that people living in the country are used to hearing dogs bark at night, so may not have thought anything of it. What do you think?
 
Thank-you, Betty P. I like to visualize but, even using a system like Google Earth, you really don't get a true picture because being ground level is best but, this road they lived on isn't mapped out with that ability to provide ground level. I don't pay much attention myself to dogs that bark in the night around here until they've barked for "too long." With my own dog, his first 5-8 howls are "free" but, if it goes on longer or changes in tone or intensity, I'll find out what's up and put a stop to it. I have neighbors, though, who will let their dogs go on and off, all night long but, once I'm asleep, they don't wake me up. The Rhodens lived with much more land between neighbors than I do so they probably got used to the dogs barking at night. Maybe they didn't care and hardly even noticed and had no neighbors who heard any more than some dogs in the distance... not even a loud enough sound to wake the neighbors up, I wouldn't think. I have a train track that goes by here and there are trains, at times, going all night long but it doesn't wake me up anymore. "Normal sounds" become background by their very repetitive nature. Look at that land they live on. I bet dogs were barking on and off all night long... possum, raccoons, rabbits, skunks....
I also always thought FR's trailer and CSr's trailer were approached by two separate parties at the same time but, now with this news of CSr having more decomposition and not really knowing if GR was even in CSr's house at the time of CSr's death... I guess I'll have to do a little more thinking on this. I'm also confused by the statement that CSr saw them approaching. Well, how can they know that? The answer to that is important, I think. I do think CSr ran at one point and headed for the back bedroom... not to get anything like money or drugs but just to gain some advantage where he could use that retreat to buy a little time to get out a window. I think he had already received the defensive gun shot wound to his arm and then he ran for his life at that point. He was shot through the door by someone coming down the hall after him and then I think he died right in that room after making a good try of fighting back. Because I think any discussion about "where is the money" or "where is this or that" was all finished by the time CSr tried to turn the tables and got shot in the arm; I don't think the shooting was done as a "one by one" torture event.
My comment seems too long... I'll add more later in smaller sized comments.
 
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Someone earlier in the thread wrote that the cartel was ruled out bc the youngest victim was 16, and still a child. I'm on the fence about the cartel. I don't think the youngest victim being 16 rules them out. The cartel, IMOO, wouldn't necessarily consider him still a child - even though U.S. law considers a 16 year-old a minor. When you consider the age of some working for the cartel, I think they might consider 16 old enough, unfortunately. Love and prayers for the victims' families.

BBM
I do know that children as young as 13 are allowed to buy beer and cigarettes in some places in Mexico. Hubby and I sat in a plaza and watched kids buying beer and saw them buy cigarettes in the store.
This was in a very small town in the middle of Mexico, in the Guadalajara region but I don't know what the official legal age is though.

JMO
 
Thank-you, Betty P. I like to visualize but, even using a system like Google Earth, you really don't get a true picture because being ground level is best but, this road they lived on isn't mapped out with that ability to provide ground level. I don't pay much attention myself to dogs that bark in the night around here until they've barked for "too long." With my own dog, his first 5-8 howls are "free" but, if it goes on longer or changes in tone or intensity, I'll find out what's up and put a stop to it. I have neighbors, though, who will let their dogs go on and off, all night long but, once I'm asleep, they don't wake me up. The Rhodens lived with much more land between neighbors than I do so they probably got used to the dogs barking at night. Maybe they didn't care and hardly even noticed and had no neighbors who heard any more than some dogs in the distance... not even a loud enough sound to wake the neighbors up, I wouldn't think. I have a train track that goes by here and there are trains, at times, going all night long but it doesn't wake me up anymore. "Normal sounds" become background by their very repetitive nature. Look at that land they live on. I bet dogs were barking on and off all night long... possum, raccoons, rabbits, skunks....
I also always thought FR's trailer and CSr's trailer were approached by two separate parties at the same time but, now with this news of CSr having more decomposition and not really knowing if GR was even in CSr's house at the time of CSr's death... I guess I'll have to do a little more thinking on this. I'm also confused by the statement that CSr saw them approaching. Well, how can they know that? The answer to that is important, I think. I do think CSr ran at one point and headed for the back bedroom... not to get anything like money or drugs but just to gain some advantage where he could use that retreat and try to shoot back at multiple people. I think he had already received the defensive gun shot wound to his arm and then he ran for his life at that point. He was shot through the door by someone coming down the hall after him and then I think he died right in that room after making a good try of fighting back. Because I think any discussion about "where is the money" or "where is this or that" was all finished by the time CSr tried to turn the tables and got shot in the arm; I don't think the shooting was done as a "one by one" torture event.
My comment seems too long... I'll add more later in smaller sized comments.

Great post and ideas, thanks! Looking forward to more.

You ask a very good question: How did LE know that CR1 know the killers were approaching? If he got shot in the arm at the front door, does that mean his door was unlocked? Who let the dog out?

I mentioned earlier that we assumed CR1 had video cameras on the property. LM said he did. Should we assume he might have seen the killers approaching on his monitor or whatever he used to view camera footage? Did he know they were going to kill him before they got into the house? If so, how did he know? Did he recognize someone whom he knew was angry with him?

I'm still mulling these things over. If the door was locked, he would have to let them in and would have considered them friendly before things took a wrong turn. Maybe the dog was barking at one of them, possibly someone who had never been there before, and CR1 let the dog out.

But, yeah, how did LE know that CR saw them approaching? What does that fact mean? How did they know that? Curtains on the window partly opened?

Was it because the computer/video system he used to view security cam footage was missing, taken by the killers? Maybe family members pointed out to LE where it usually sat in the house and told them CR kept it on.

Probably the latter.
 
I have always wondered how many shots were fired for each victim. It would completely change the scenario if there were, say, 6 shots fired and only two hit the victims head. We know how many shots each victim got and where, but what if there were more? Someone shooting in the dark would have missed at least a few times. Barring use of nightvision.
My opinion is this was no professional or cartel. This was very personal. There is hate and rage behind that many bullets in so many members of the same family. Someone hate them so much they decided they all have to die. No professional or cartel would wait around for hours after killing CRsr to kill everyone else. I would think professional or cartel would be in and out as quick as possible. This is all just my opinion.

BBM
I see this too. Even if there are hard drugs involved, this has always looked like it was hate/revenge driven, to me, at the end of the day. The rage is there, it was controlled, to a degree, but one can see it. However, they maintained their ability to get away with this, for two years, and five months (today), in part, because they did plan it well, and did do a decent clean up job. Whoever did this, put in some real thought, and planning. I almost think that the difference in the numbers of shots, per victim (w/the exception of CR1), was just different shooters, and the firearms they used. I think, with CR1, he was awake, and mobile, b/c they needed him to be, for a short period. If they got into the safe, that might be how.
 
I was completely shocked to find out that CSR was killed first.. It totally threw off several of my theories. One of my theories was based on the killers killing some/all of the victims in front of CSR for the purpose(s)of: gaining intel, location of drugs/money and/or to make CSR suffer for something. But what if killing CSR first was not the initial plan? What if he ran, hid and/or was combative (as I am sure he would have been from what I have heard) therefore one of the gunshots ended up fatal instead of an intended “cautionary gunshot wound”. From everything I have ever heard, CSR had guns and had them within arm’s reach at all times therefore the killers had to subdue him quickly by wounding him- maybe it went too far due to CSR’s action/reactions by being shot through a bedroom door- he was in that room either hiding from visitors or getting something for the visitors… or he could have been shot and killed by one of the killers who was trigger happy, killing him prior to when they had planned. But why would they then kill everyone else? The only reasons that I can fit into this theory would be that CSR was aware of a planned visit from one/all of the killers therefore the killers could assume that the ones closes to him (FR, DR, KR, GR) would know “he/she/they” were visiting CSR that evening. Once the visit went south and CSR ended up dead before the killers planned, they knew that the ones closes to him had to be taken care of too.


That then circles back around to GR. From everything that I have read (news articles, FB, Topix, etc.) GR would have been in the trailer with CSR that night when trouble arrived. If he was there and my theory above is correct and CSR ran/hid/combative-what was GR doing? Was he just sitting there obeying the killers while CSR fought to get away/react/hide? Was GR aware of the “visitors” intentions that night? I do not think (or hope) that he was fully aware that 7 of his family members and himself would be murdered so viciously that night, but maybe GR was aware of a far less violent plan and was forced/bribed/indebted to the killers so he somewhat assisted- unknown to him that everyone else was going to be involved, much less murdered.


I also want to state that I have read that GR was an addict and that Chris was helping him get sober and on the right path. I understand fully that addicts can burn bridges by stealing, lying, cheating, etc. therefore he could have had many enemies however I do not think the killers were there for only GR- if they were there for only GR, I could see them killing CSR first and then dealing with GR but I do not see them also killing all of CSR’s core family. Which leads back to my initial theory that possibly CSR was “accidentally” killed earlier than the killers had planned him to be. With CSR being the patriarch of the family members that were murdered, it just does not make sense for him to be killed first unless it was an accident or possibly to get him out of the way.


And I’m not sure he was shot through the bedroom door. He could have been atvthe front door, and the killers shot through it and chased him down the hall shooting the entire way.

Wasn’t there something about $160,000.00 hidden in trailer walls. Odd number to come out of thin air.
 
And I’m not sure he was shot through the bedroom door. He could have been atvthe front door, and the killers shot through it and chased him down the hall shooting the entire way.

Wasn’t there something about $160,000.00 hidden in trailer walls. Odd number to come out of thin air.

News reports said he was shot through the back bedroom door. The coroner probably concluded that due to residue of wood, etc. imbedded in his face.

Ohio Supreme Court allows newspapers to review Rhoden family preliminary autopsy reports
 
Thank-you, Betty P. I like to visualize but, even using a system like Google Earth, you really don't get a true picture because being ground level is best but, this road they lived on isn't mapped out with that ability to provide ground level. I don't pay much attention myself to dogs that bark in the night around here until they've barked for "too long." With my own dog, his first 5-8 howls are "free" but, if it goes on longer or changes in tone or intensity, I'll find out what's up and put a stop to it. I have neighbors, though, who will let their dogs go on and off, all night long but, once I'm asleep, they don't wake me up. The Rhodens lived with much more land between neighbors than I do so they probably got used to the dogs barking at night. Maybe they didn't care and hardly even noticed and had no neighbors who heard any more than some dogs in the distance... not even a loud enough sound to wake the neighbors up, I wouldn't think. I have a train track that goes by here and there are trains, at times, going all night long but it doesn't wake me up anymore. "Normal sounds" become background by their very repetitive nature. Look at that land they live on. I bet dogs were barking on and off all night long... possum, raccoons, rabbits, skunks....
I also always thought FR's trailer and CSr's trailer were approached by two separate parties at the same time but, now with this news of CSr having more decomposition and not really knowing if GR was even in CSr's house at the time of CSr's death... I guess I'll have to do a little more thinking on this. I'm also confused by the statement that CSr saw them approaching. Well, how can they know that? The answer to that is important, I think. I do think CSr ran at one point and headed for the back bedroom... not to get anything like money or drugs but just to gain some advantage where he could use that retreat to buy a little time to get out a window. I think he had already received the defensive gun shot wound to his arm and then he ran for his life at that point. He was shot through the door by someone coming down the hall after him and then I think he died right in that room after making a good try of fighting back. Because I think any discussion about "where is the money" or "where is this or that" was all finished by the time CSr tried to turn the tables and got shot in the arm; I don't think the shooting was done as a "one by one" torture event.
My comment seems too long... I'll add more later in smaller sized comments.

BBM
Pepper, this is on the Columbus Dispatch site, on youtube;

It may help you gauge the distances, at car level, as they drive UHR. It was a help to me.
 
Thank you very much. That's a great graphic! From the beginning, I thought separate teams of killers went to each home. RSD1200's theory sounds plausible, too.

We've had discussions here many times in the past about dogs barking outside, too. If CR1's dog was put outside when the killers came in, it would have been outside barking during the murders, along with all the other dogs outside. Some here have pointed out, though, that people living in the country are used to hearing dogs bark at night, so may not have thought anything of it. What do you think?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CSr might have invited the people inside and put the dogs out on his own (gladly, for "visitors" or upon order from killers.) FR's dogs, across the way, might not have customarily barked when people arrived at CS's house. The dogs might have known the people who arrived, too. Maybe FR's dogs barking are what kept FR and HG from hearing someone enter their house and those who entered could get all the way to the bedroom without being discovered due to the barking. I agree with you that 2 people were in that house and probably on both sides of bed. I am wondering about something... HG was shot 5 times with one "odd" shot to the left eye and DR was shot 5 times with one "odd" shot under the chin. I'm wondering if the same person didn't shoot both of them.
PS... I've read over my long, rambling comment above and would change some things. Beginning to agree with those who said CSr put up a much bigger fight than I stated above. Also, do you recall that a window down the end of CSr's house was open with the curtain hanging out the window? I'm thinking, in a panic CSr attempted to escape out that way during his terrible ordeal. On that horrible note I have to give this a break because it's just too upsetting and sad to even think about sometimes.
 
BBM
Pepper, this is on the Columbus Dispatch site, on youtube;

It may help you gauge the distances, at car level, as they drive UHR. It was a help to me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank-you! That is extremely helpful. The distance seems much further than when viewed from above and makes me feel indoor gun shots from one trailer might not necessarily be heard at the other.
 
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