OH - Pike County: 8 People From One Family Dead As Police Hunt For Killer(s) #34 *Arrests*

[Betty P]

FWIW, the close-contact wounds of the victims reinforces the idea that whomever the killers were, they were a bloody mess that night, from the time of the first murder, even worse later on. They would have needed to hide from anyone they encountered during the killings and after, until they could clean up and get rid of their clothing and shoes. If they were seen by any of the victims that night (like GR) they would have known immediately what was happening.

Speaking of shoes, I wonder if there were any shoe or boot prints? There must have been quite a lot of blood on the floor of these crime scenes.

 

[pepper 34]

I think my statement was being misinterpreted. I’m NOT disputing the coroner’s determination that CRsr was first. I am in disagreement of thinking there was ample time (example 1 hr+) between the killings of CRsr and everyone else (except maybe KR). If the dogs were let outside before the scuffle, the multiple shots would make the dogs sense fear and the barking would be more intense than normal annoying barks. I think the fear in barking would also set off FR’s dogs and awaken FR. Therefore one of my theories is there were two groups, one at CRsr and the other at FR’s, simultaneously. I also see a scenario that the perps came to the trailer of CRsr, waking Gary on the couch and he lets out the dogs when he opens the door, maybe there is a short discussion that wakes up CRsr who comes out of the bedroom, demands are made and things get ugly so they shoot at him as he retreats to shut the bedroom door. After the first shot a second perp holds a gun to GR to keep him in check. The first perp(s) pursue CRsr and the loot. GR is a collateral shot cuz he’s a witness. Time is spent moving GR and cleaning up while a second group is taking care of business elsewhere. I also have a theory that the same perps who did FR/HG also did DR/HMR/CRjr—maybe while the first group took care of business in the first trailer. This would also explain the similarities in how DR and HG had similar wounds. I have other theories but this is just too long. Sorry.

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I agree with your opening paragraph. From the original autopsy release you can see that others had autolytic changes in their bodies, too... some others, along with CSr also had upper and lower GI gas distention. Some others had more organs with autolytic changes, in fact, then CSr did. (But, who says that's why the coroner made his decision as he did anyway? I have no idea!) I will leave the link here for you if you are interested and haven't seen these documents before. I think CSr died first because the coroner said so... but I don't think he necessarily died hours before. There are too many variables as to an individual's body chemistry and diet, drugs, etc. and other outside influences which can change the rate of decomposition to decide imo. In fact, some people that we would all assume died at the same time such as FR and HG also show differences in rates of autolytic changes in certain organs.
But, dogs? I can't count on any dog assumptions at all (even any I make myself.) Because dogs are unpredictable. You open a door and let some dogs out and they are gone... off to the races until they darn well feel like coming home. Not sitting outside the house trying to figure out what's going on inside the house. Also, I'm still half sure that the R's dogs were familiar with whoever showed up that night.
https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov...BCI/Pike-County-Final-Autopsies-REDACTED.aspx

 

[rsd1200]

There was minor slippage in the case of Rebecca Zahau, whose body was discovered and later photographed about 10 hrs after her murder (still not sure of TOD in that case, either). I think the point is that minor slippage can and does occur sooner. It can depend on a number of factors like ambient temperature, clothing, health, etc.

https://www.quora.com/How-long-does...round-at-first-or-does-it-come-completely-off


However you look at it, there was enough of a difference for the ME to note it.

Preliminary AR noted the other deaths occurred within a relatively short time span, at least short enough to visually indicate a similar decomp stage.

Media & Timeline NO DISCUSSION - Pike Co, OH 8 Family Members Murdered

Everyone else was killed between 1am and around 7 am, a six hour time span.

Does anyone know of any quotes in the news stating the last time someone (family, friends, etc.) spoke with CR1 or GR?
We have some vague timelines for other members of the family, with the last being around 1 am when AM texted DR. There's anecdotal evidence from social media, news media interviews, etc. that reveals some schedules of the others, how about those two?

There's lots of factors that play into decomp. It's actually very interesting. I'd thought of going into that field when I was young, and had thought about the funeral business but you have to deal with the living too much there. Each case, indoor vs. outdoor, buried vs above ground, temps, season, even clothing (iirc), can play a role in the decomp process. That's why they have developed body farms, to study a variety of situations. So, I don't doubt that minor slippage could occur under the right conditions.

My guess would be that CR1 was murdered after 1 a.m. I think they were all murdered between the hours of 2 - 3 a.m. and 5 a.m. I think they had the plan laid out and they were fast. GR may have just stumbled into it, or, they used CR1's phone to text him, and have him come by, or they knew he was on his way.

 

[Betty P]

There's lots of factors that play into decomp. It's actually very interesting. I'd thought of going into that field when I was young, and had thought about the funeral business but you have to deal with the living too much there. Each case, indoor vs. outdoor, buried vs above ground, temps, season, even clothing (iirc), can play a role in the decomp process. That's why they have developed body farms, to study a variety of situations. So, I don't doubt that minor slippage could occur under the right conditions.

My guess would be that CR1 was murdered after 1 a.m. I think they were all murdered between the hours of 2 - 3 a.m. and 5 a.m. I think they had the plan laid out and they were fast. GR may have just stumbled into it, or, they used CR1's phone to text him, and have him come by, or they knew he was on his way.

Agree. I'm thinking back to that post a man made on a local web site saying he was out hunting in the area and heard shots from that direction at around 4:00 am. I think he was up in a stand, waiting for it to get light. We posted about it here at WS, but I think the guy ended up deleting his post. Can't say I blame him, he probably got a lot of emails. I do remember it, though.

 

[ilovepierre]

Agree. I'm thinking back to that post a man made on a local web site saying he was out hunting in the area and heard shots from that direction at around 4:00 am. I think he was up in a stand, waiting for it to get light. We posted about it here at WS, but I think the guy ended up deleting his post. Can't say I blame him, he probably got a lot of emails. I do remember it, though.

IMO, that's when I believe the murders took place (4am-ish).
It's possible someone was hunting, but I doubt it...

 

[Dudly]

Thanks Dudly! I've been doing some reading on decomp too.

At the time that the bodies were found, I'd guess that the coroner noted CR1's more advanced stage of decomp. Between lividity and rigor, they could probably tell that he'd been killed before the others.

My guess is that all bodies were in, what is called, the "Fresh" stage. The Fresh Stage, lasts 1-2 days. During that time of decomp, a lot of things happen, most internal from what I gather, except rigor and lividity. Lividity begins to work through the deceased within thirty minutes of their heart stopping and can last up to twelve hours. It may show as a dark purple coloring. Only up to the first six hours of death can lividity be altered by moving the body. After the six hour mark lividity is fixed. Livor mortis (lividity) is usually most pronounced eight to twelve hours after death.

Rigor begins throughout the body, but, normally appears to us, within two hours, in the the facial and upper neck and shoulder muscles. The deceased's face might take on what looks to be a grimace; this is because the facial muscles have contracted. Once the muscles have all contracted (8-12 hours depending on certain facotrs), the body will remain in rigor for up to 18 hours, after which, it will return to pre-Rigor condition. Putrefaction will start, and then the next stage, Bloat.

The next stage, Bloat, has a range of 2-6 days. I don't believe CR1 was that far advanced.

I believe CR1 had a more advanced state of Rigor. A couple hours. Maybe, BJM found them, much sooner after they were killed, than we think that she did. Instead of after 1 a.m., it may have been closer to the 3-5 a.m. mark. that they were murdered. IIRC Mittens mentioned that KR would come to the trailer to shower, maybe that's the only reason he died, to give them more time before the bodies were found. It seemed they tried to hamper BJM finding them so soon.

Links used to summarize the above.
Decomposition – The Forensics Library

Rigor Mortis and Other Postmortem Changes - burial, body, life, cause, time, person, human, Putrefaction

Stages of decomposition | Tænketanken

Rigor Mortis and Lividity

Was this fact or theory that KR went to CRsr's every morning to shower?

 

[rsd1200]

Was this fact or theory that KR went to CRsr's every morning to shower?

I cannot state it as fact, nor provide a link. I am unsure, but, iirc, Mittens had mentioned it in a post, but, I, personally have no link, and if I don't have link, it's purely speculation on my part.

 

[Betty P]

I cannot state it as fact, nor provide a link. I am unsure, but, iirc, Mittens had mentioned it in a post, but, I, personally have no link, and if I don't have link, it's purely speculation on my part.

I've heard it, too. I wonder if it was part of those interviews that DS gave. Either that or remarks in news media from his daughter?

 

[rsd1200]

I've heard it, too. I wonder if it was part of those interviews that DS gave. Either that or remarks in news media from his daughter?

I had also heard that someone picked KR up for work each morning. Did they pick KR up at his trailer or at CR1's? Surely KR wouldn't drive 7-8 miles to shower, and go back another 7-8 miles, to be picked up.

If that was the case, you'd think he'd bum a shower at his kin's place a few hundred feet down the road.

What time did the driver stop to pick KR up? If he did go by CR1's, why didn't the guy who picked KR up, stop that morning, or, did he stop? Did he call KR when KR wasn't there?

Just rambling...

 

[Jennifer17]

FWIW, the close-contact wounds of the victims reinforces the idea that whomever the killers were, they were a bloody mess that night, from the time of the first murder, even worse later on. They would have needed to hide from anyone they encountered during the killings and after, until they could clean up and get rid of their clothing and shoes. If they were seen by any of the victims that night (like GR) they would have known immediately what was happening.

Speaking of shoes, I wonder if there were any shoe or boot prints? There must have been quite a lot of blood on the floor of these crime scenes.

Spray painters throw away all in one (feet included) suits.

 

[Elley Mae]

Agree. I'm thinking back to that post a man made on a local web site saying he was out hunting in the area and heard shots from that direction at around 4:00 am. I think he was up in a stand, waiting for it to get light. We posted about it here at WS, but I think the guy ended up deleting his post. Can't say I blame him, he probably got a lot of emails. I do remember it, though.

Yes, he assumed ppl were turkey hunting.

 

[pepper 34]

FWIW, the close-contact wounds of the victims reinforces the idea that whomever the killers were, they were a bloody mess that night, from the time of the first murder, even worse later on. They would have needed to hide from anyone they encountered during the killings and after, until they could clean up and get rid of their clothing and shoes. If they were seen by any of the victims that night (like GR) they would have known immediately what was happening.

Speaking of shoes, I wonder if there were any shoe or boot prints? There must have been quite a lot of blood on the floor of these crime scenes.

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I don't believe anybody would get into their own car or truck during any of these murders and take the chance of leaving blood all over their car's-truck's interior... door handles, etc. It's a quarter mile from CSr's house to DR's house which is just a very short walk with plenty of cover and time to duck off into the brush if they heard a car coming. I don't think anyone would park their car(s) anywhere near any of those trailer's that night either. A stolen car would be a risk, too, if LE drove by and checked the plate or did same while it was being driven. My theory is a "drop off and pick up" by a driver who's job was only that... being the driver. (A pick-up truck hiding them in the bed under a tarpaulin? And, possibly used to drive the murderers from CS's place to DR's place instead of walking.) Wearing dark, protective clothing they would dispose of later; they wouldn't be likely to be seen by anyone else driving by. This is another reason why I think KR was a "separate" murder done by just one person not involved in the other murders. If we take the coroners's word that CSr was killed first, then it seems likely that KR was murdered last... or else at the same approximate time as the others by someone other than "the others."

 

[Dudly]

I cannot state it as fact, nor provide a link. I am unsure, but, iirc, Mittens had mentioned it in a post, but, I, personally have no link, and if I don't have link, it's purely speculation on my part.

It is hard for me to believe in this day and age a guy would be living there with no water supply. If he worked on cars there, he'd have to carry in water to wash his hands? How would he flush the toilet? How long had he been living there? If it was a very short time, and it was done abruptly, it would be possible that he didn't have everything hooked up yet.

 

[rsd1200]

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I don't believe anybody would get into their own car or truck during any of these murders and take the chance of leaving blood all over their car's-truck's interior... door handles, etc. It's a quarter mile from CSr's house to DR's house which is just a very short walk with plenty of cover and time to duck off into the brush if they heard a car coming. I don't think anyone would park their car(s) anywhere near any of those trailer's that night either. A stolen car would be a risk, too, if LE drove by and checked the plate or did same while it was being driven. My theory is a "drop off and pick up" by a driver who's job was only that... being the driver. (A pick-up truck hiding them in the bed under a tarpaulin? And, possibly used to drive the murderers from CS's place to DR's place instead of walking.) Wearing dark, protective clothing they would dispose of later; they wouldn't be likely to be seen by anyone else driving by. This is another reason why I think KR was a "separate" murder done by just one person not involved in the other murders. If we take the coroners's word that CSr was killed first, then it seems likely that KR was murdered last... or else at the same approximate time as the others by someone other than "the others."

BBM
I think it's possible that it was a pickup truck too. I've also wondered if it was an old "red" pickup truck. They planned it right down to where they would ditch their clothing, and more than likely had other clothing inside the cab. Wash off in a nearby creek, throw everything else in a burn pit, spray out the truck bed, and maybe even run it through a car wash after.

 

[Betty P]

BBM
I think it's possible that it was a pickup truck too. I've also wondered if it was an old "red" pickup truck. They planned it right down to where they would ditch their clothing, and more than likely had other clothing inside the cab. Wash off in a nearby creek, throw everything else in a burn pit, spray out the truck bed, and maybe even run it through a car wash after.

Possibly the old red pickup that was later sold to JM, possibly in an attempt to frame him. Odd how LE fell for that gambit hook line and sinker, no? Still need to know more about the guy who owned that red pickup at the time of the murders. Everyone just ignores him. He's important.

ETA: I also think other people and vehicles were involved that night. Three guys and a pick-up truck seems pretty small. There had to be back up assistance in case things went south.

I'm also assuming these people either used burner phones or went without doing much communication. Two shooters walking a mile or more down the road to shoot more people at DR's, etc. seems pretty risky. Someone drives by, they have to hide in the woods. How does red pickup truck guy know they're finished or where to pick them up?

 

[MizStery]

I think it's possible that it was a pickup truck too. I've also wondered if it was an old "red" pickup truck. They planned it right down to where they would ditch their clothing, and more than likely had other clothing inside the cab. Wash off in a nearby creek, throw everything else in a burn pit, spray out the truck bed, and maybe even run it through a car wash after.

Possibly the old red pickup that was later sold to JM, possibly in an attempt to frame him. Odd how LE fell for that gambit hook line and sinker, no? Still need to know more about the guy who owned that red pickup at the time of the murders. Everyone just ignores him. He's important.

Good Golly Miss Molly. You got me think'n.

Does any one have the photo of the old red P/U with the yellow strobe light on top. If you wanted to appear like your in route for a tow assist or say a jump (appear business as usual)this would be handy.Especially if you possibly might have anything incriminating to dispose of fast.


Was there a rumor that someone needed help for either their own or FR's vehicle. I think I remember something like a broken down vehicle or a jump?Again this was a long time ago so I apologize if my memory is fuzzy.At the time it sounded like it could have been a ruse by the perps? Just a theory (sigh) like so much of the case.

My final thought on the strobe lights on the old red P/U. If you were on a hunting trip at night the extra bright lights would be handy to see in your preys lair in the dark. This really upsets me to even think about. I will just say I think you where I'm going.

I am going to look and see if I can find something definitive!


Just My Opinion

 

[rsd1200]

It is hard for me to believe in this day and age a guy would be living there with no water supply. If he worked on cars there, he'd have to carry in water to wash his hands? How would he flush the toilet? How long had he been living there? If it was a very short time, and it was done abruptly, it would be possible that he didn't have everything hooked up yet.

He may have hauled water. In the overheads, of the maps, when they put the fifth wheel in, I saw no water line area. There was a family nearby us, who hauled water to their single wide. If they ran out before payday, they took spit baths in the creek. They may have had an outhouse that shot over the hill, in the harder times, too. Folks make do.

From Death in the Foothills:

For even more, living at home in Pike County — where a quarter of its housing units are heated by wood and 6 percent have no indoor plumbing — means commuting an hour or longer to nearby cities for decent-paying jobs.

Pike County: Death in the foothills

 

[pepper 34]

I had also heard that someone picked KR up for work each morning. Did they pick KR up at his trailer or at CR1's? Surely KR wouldn't drive 7-8 miles to shower, and go back another 7-8 miles, to be picked up.

If that was the case, you'd think he'd bum a shower at his kin's place a few hundred feet down the road.

What time did the driver stop to pick KR up? If he did go by CR1's, why didn't the guy who picked KR up, stop that morning, or, did he stop? Did he call KR when KR wasn't there?

Just rambling...

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I'm just guessing that, with they type of work KR did, he would want to shower after work rather than wait until the morning before work. But, people are habitual creatures and there's no real way to know. I'm still wondering why DS didn't stay at KR's camper the night of the murders. DS was supposed to spend time with KR the next day... something to do with cars... and had planned to stay at KR's place that night but apparently at least that part of the plan was cancelled. Has that ever been answered, do you know? Also, I'm not sure why it's said in news reports that everyone was asleep except CSr.... wasn't DR found on the floor? I believe her brother said he entered the trailer and, when he saw her legs on the floor, he "stopped right there and left the trailer because he didn't want to see the rest of her body." Also, it seems likely that CJr was awake because he reportedly hid somewhere but, I'm assuming that is because he heard gun shots inside the house from his bedroom.

 

[rsd1200]

Good Golly Miss Molly. You got me think'n.

Does any one have the photo of the red P/U with the yellow strobe light on top. If you wanted to appear like your in route for a tow assist or say a jump this would be handy.Especially if you possibly might have anything incriminating to dispose of fast.


Was there a rumor that someone needed help with a broken down vehicle or a jump?Was it perhaps FR?


Just My Opinion

From what I saw, in a FB post, was that FR left the house b/c of an argument between he and HHG. after ChelRob left. Maybe he went somewhere to jump someone, or they came to jump him so he could leave. Is it possible that he tried to stir CR1 and he was already deceased (maybe he wasn't home though)? Why would he call someone when he has a blue million vehicles and two guys next door to jump him?

Another topic, but, along the lines of argument; HHG and FR were quite unhappy with HMR for denying CG the ability to see the baby. She was adamant that he'd not see her, and that CH was going to be her father, and raise her. She flatly refused to let CG come to the hospital. KR did not like CH at all, and inferred that none of the family did. They were badgering her, two hours after she delivered, to let CG come see the baby. So, fwiw, I'm having trouble buying that fishing story at this point. Got the screenshots but, unless TOS have changed, I can't upload them.

 

[Betty P]

It is hard for me to believe in this day and age a guy would be living there with no water supply. If he worked on cars there, he'd have to carry in water to wash his hands? How would he flush the toilet? How long had he been living there? If it was a very short time, and it was done abruptly, it would be possible that he didn't have everything hooked up yet.

He likely had a water supply, there is probably a well on the property and some kind of septic tank. That's pretty a pretty standard set up out in the country - get your electricity wired in, dig a well and septic tank and use propane or similar compressed gas if you need that for heating, hot water heater, etc.

KR had electric and water if he was growing plants in the shed.