AFTER the hearing - who do you find more credible?

[kkdj]

wow...No one corroborated any of her accusations against him. The most recent accusation, that he was in a crew that gang raped girls for TWO YEARS of high school, was a pathetic joke. His daughters had to hear of these accusations, which are totally unfounded.

And it seems that everyone here is mocking him, assuming he is a rapist? Wondering why he seemed upset and unhinged?

wow...our country is in a very bad way. Does #metoo now mean that every accusation, even uncorroborated ones from 40 years ago are automatically TRUE?

This man has devoted his entire life to public service. He has no history of being a drunk. He partied in high school and college, like every other student I know.

He wouldn't have accomplished what he did if he had been a hapless, blackout drunk. He was first in his class, lettered in 3 sports and did lots of charity/volunteer work.

And a woman can say he groped her 40 years ago, and no one else remembers it but her---and I am supposed to throw this man out on his ear, on her word?

Her therapist never wrote down HIS name. How do we know it was him?

Why doesn't she know whose house she was in? How can he fight the charges, give an alibi if she doesn't know where they were? Did she go to parties at 15 where she didn't know whose party it was?

It saddens me that everyone is so absolutely certain that he is guilty. But without any real evidence. My son's best friend was arrested and charged with date rape in his 2nd year of college. It nearly ruined his entire life. SHE LIED AND FALSELY ACCUSED HIM. After 6 months the cops realized it was a lie and dropped the charges but the major damage was done already.

This is very sad...

Great Post! Thank you for writing this! This is exactly what I think!

 

[ilovewings]

Am I understanding correctly that there were only the four people named at this party? If so, it seems she was most likely driven by her girlfriend, or did Mark Judge pick her up? This would be an important question for the FBI to delve into, IMO.

Another item would be, if there were only these four at the party, then the house belonged to a family member or acquaintance of one of the boys. JMO.

There is a big missing piece here that no one has bothered to investigate because they don’t want to know!

My opinions only.

There are an awful lot of questions about what she called a "gathering"
how many people were at the gathering]
how did she get there?
how did she get home?
she said the bedroom door was locked by BK or MJ- how long did it take her to unlock it? did anyone try to stop her from leaving the bedroom?

Those are important questions that people dismiss because some psychologist (not Dr. Ford) although she said it too, is that sometime those kinds of things are not remembered. Really? if what she alleges happened to me, i would surely know how i got to that party and how i got home: she said she ran out of the house- so how don't you recall what you did next- after all, you are now out on the street, in front of a house you are not familiar with. you have to get home so what do you do?

 

[simba16]

There are an awful lot of questions about what she called a "gathering"
how many people were at the gathering]
how did she get there?
how did she get home?
she said the bedroom door was locked by BK or MJ- how long did it take her to unlock it? did anyone try to stop her from leaving the bedroom?

Those are important questions that people dismiss because some psychologist (not Dr. Ford) although she said it too, is that sometime those kinds of things are not remembered. Really? if what she alleges happened to me, i would surely know how i got to that party and how i got home: she said she ran out of the house- so how don't you recall what you did next- after all, you are now out on the street, in front of a house you are not familiar with. you have to get home so what do you do?

You are not every person. Have you suffered assault or traumatic event?. Have you read the posters here who suffered assault and have varying degrees of memory? Are you an expert, psychologist?
What about the Yale classmates who knew about the Ramirez incident at the time and were discussing in emails in past months when Kavanaugh's name came out in media? That is damning evidence, proving Ramirez allegations but we don't know if FBI will investigate this line of inquiry.

 

[simba16]

At least 5 of his former Yale classmates have come out in past week saying BK lied under oath, perjury. Flake said it would be over of he's lied under oath.
Like Trump, is he a pathological liar? Needs to worry about keeping his current job.

 

[zedda]

They buried the last credible Republican last month, if that answers your question.

 

[simba16]

They buried the last credible Republican last month, if that answers your question.

Yes, John McCain.

 

[ilovewings]

You are not every person. Have you suffered assault or traumatic event?. Have you read the posters here who suffered assault and have varying degrees of memory? Are you an expert, psychologist?
What about the Yale classmates who knew about the Ramirez incident at the time and were discussing in emails in past months when Kavanaugh's name came out in media? That is damning evidence, proving Ramirez allegations but we don't know if FBI will investigate this line of inquiry.

I am not disputing what Ms. Ford testified to: but there are legitimate questions that need to be answered and yes, i have been sexually assaulted--- My hope is that BK does not get nominated to the supreme court: i think he is remarkably unfit based on his demeanor and temperament he displayed at the hearing. But that is a separate issue from the allegations against him for sexual assault. I am glad the FBI is investigating and we can thank Jeff Flake for that. Oh, and when I said what I would do under a particular set of circumstances I am aware i am not "every person". of course i can only speak about how i would react or did react to a situation.

 

[simba16]

I am not disputing what Ms. Ford testified to: but there are legitimate questions that need to be answered and yes, i have been sexually assaulted--- My hope is that BK does not get nominated to the supreme court: i think he is remarkably unfit based on his demeanor and temperament he displayed at the hearing. But that is a separate issue from the allegations against him for sexual assault. I am glad the FBI is investigating and we can thank Jeff Flake for that. Oh, and when I said what I would do under a particular set of circumstances I am aware i am not "every person". of course i can only speak about how i would react or did react to a situation.

I am sorry about the assault. There is so much pain. At least the BK nomination brought issue to forefront; there are way too many victims and it has to stop.

 

[simba16]

Sunday New Yorker article states that several Yale classmates have been trying to reach FBI or Senate Judiciary committee but have had no response and fear there is a whitewash. Several people can confirm Ramirez allegations or dispute Kavanaugh testimony.

 

[CARIIS]

Can folks who believe this a false deal explain or come up with a theory why the reps hid thousands of documents that have always been used in SC nominee hearings

??

 

[Cryptic]

At least 5 of his former Yale classmates have come out in past week saying BK lied under oath, perjury. Flake said it would be over of he's lied under oath.
Like Trump, is he a pathological liar?

I doubt that BK or Trump are pathological liars in the clinical sense.

Rather, BK is simply following the Bill Clinton School of Thought when dealing with accusations of assault via groping or in Bill Clinton's case, rape. The school of thought is simple- just deny the entire event. Admitting to being on the scene is risky and just leads to more questions, more chances of making a mistake.

The Bill Clinton model aside, I can see that the accusations made by the first woman would not support criminal prosecution. At the same time, they seem credible as they don't involve vast conspiracies, unreported raped etc.

Too bad the new "Me, Me toos" are muddying the waters.

 

[CARIIS]

Sunday New Yorker article states that several Yale classmates have been trying to reach FBI or Senate Judiciary committee but have had no response and fear there is a whitewash. Several people can confirm Ramirez allegations or dispute Kavanaugh testimony.

Their only answer is to just go to the media. Anyone who feels what is being stated is untrue can sue for slander with malicious intent.

Lets just get the facts out - no investigation is history starts with a list telling the FBI or cops the 4 people they can talk to. That is sit-com material.

No sane person in the nation would want to get involved in this mess unless they needed the truth out.

Silly. I can get someone printing up a fake lottery ticket or something (!) but there is utterly no motivation for anyone to want get into this mess .

THe Hillary stuff is also flat out insane. Ig that does not just reek of white house I do not know what does.

Think it through - the amount of planning and organization and time to"execute" this incredible notion that this is a plan of some sort boggles the mind .

That is movie stuff (which would probably have a ton of walk outs!) do to its absurdity.

We are having trouble keeping up! Can you imagine people choreographing this tale starting out 6 years ago.

There is a huge difference , in high school, to remember the address of some house 36 years ago and having a dude on top of you allegedly attempting to rape you .

The notion that forgetting who drove you to some house party compared to someone smothering you where you cant breathe -- is as silly

So the thinking appears to be that cause someone can't recall abovementioned = attempted rape did not happen stretches credulity .

 

[CARIIS]

Kavanaugh has also highlighted his time at Georgetown Preparatory School, which bills itself as the country’s only Jesuit boarding school. In an editorial on Thursday, America magazine, a Jesuit publication, called for Kavanaugh’s nomination to be withdrawn.

 

[Hope4More]

If asked to choose who I believe on the matter of whether or not Dr. Ford was sexually assaulted by Should Never Be on Any Court Kavanaugh, and given the allegations haven't been fully investigated (and likely never will be), my answer is I believe Dr. Ford.

The more relevant question, IMO, is whether Kavanaugh disqualified himself by how he responded to Ford's allegations, both before and during the hearing, whether or not her allegations are true.

She, facing this most difficult & stressful event of her life, was visibly terrified and entirely out of her element. It was painful -and touching- to watch her try to use the microphone in front of her appropriately (she never got the hang of it).

Despite everything, she remained dignified, polite, and responsive, despite facing a prosecutor's questions that asked for hair splitting replies, and despite the fact the prosecutor was clearly challenging the veracity of her story, and playing gotcha when Ford's replies deviated even one hair's width away from prior statements. Everyone present at that hearing said they found her credible, - enough so that apparently a deep gloom descended in the WH, and most staffers thought K's nomination was dead. Everyone at the hearing also said they believed she had been sexually assaulted, even if some qualified their belief by saying Ford must have confused K with someone else.

To sum up: a victim of sexual assault went in front of the world, relived and told of the humiliation of her assault being the source of uncontainable amusement by her assailants, and yet never responded with anger at her allegations being challenged.

Then there was Kavanaugh. Forget the disqualifying & highly disturbing partisan accusations. Forget the anger he couldn't control, and/or that he chose to use strategically, especially when he wanted to evade replying directly to straightforward questions he had to have anticipated, given his weeklong coaching sessions at the WH.

Forget, even, that this supposedly impeccably credentialed JUDGE asking for a seat on the Supreme Court repeatedly misstated the evidence relating to Ford's charges. None of the four potential witnesses REFUTED Ford's allegations. Not one. Presumably, or at least hopefully, K knows the difference between a witness REFUTING something and a witness saying he/she has no knowledge or memory of that something. Perhaps that seems a trivial distinction to laymen, but it isn't to lawyers and judges; the law is frequently about making just those kind of distinctions.

Forget even that Kavanaugh gave misleading answers about his drinking, his underaged drinking, and that he almost certainly flat out lied in response to every year book related question.

Even stretching so far as to excuse/overlook ALL of that, what most bothers me and what I find most disqualifying, is his insistence, even if he had to commit perjury to maintain it, of presenting himself as an unchallengable paragon of virtue, even in high school.

What matters isn't the fact that he lied about what Devil's Triangle or Bofu meant, it's the fact that he felt the need to lie, the fact that he knew his yearbook lies were absurd on their face & unbelievable, and about the fact that he was incapable of accepting responsibility/owning up to what were truly trivial "transgressions" that were absolutely commonplace for his peers at that time in that place.

A man with integrity, one capable of introspection and an insistence on truth, both within and without, would have simply told the truth, and
remarked that he was a teenage boy, living in an elite culture, but like all teenagers, learning how to navigate social relationships, and not always getting it right.

Who could possibly fault him for that? It is his inability to accept responsibility for even the most minor of "transgressions," and the sheer ease he displayed in choosing to lie and tell half truths about himself and his accuser's accusations to avoid doing so that convince me he entirely lacks the character and judgement necessary to merit a seat on the SC.

 

[Miss Kitty]

I am not disputing what Ms. Ford testified to: but there are legitimate questions that need to be answered and yes, i have been sexually assaulted--- My hope is that BK does not get nominated to the supreme court: i think he is remarkably unfit based on his demeanor and temperament he displayed at the hearing. But that is a separate issue from the allegations against him for sexual assault. I am glad the FBI is investigating and we can thank Jeff Flake for that. Oh, and when I said what I would do under a particular set of circumstances I am aware i am not "every person". of course i can only speak about how i would react or did react to a situation.

I don't know if Ford is lying but giving her lack of memory on every detail but then claims she is 100% positive Kavanaugh is the perp makes me wonder if her memory was prodded by an agenda to stop any appointee to the bench from Trump. Something may have happened but beyond that I don't buy it. I believe Ford should be part of the FBI investigation.

 

[black_squirrel]

So it's not a matter of her not remembering where the party was, she never knew who owned the house to begin with.

Why didn't she just say that?

I thought she did say that. At least, she never stated whose house it was, or did she?

 

[ilovewings]

I don't know if Ford is lying but giving her lack of memory on every detail but then claims she is 100% positive Kavanaugh is the perp makes me wonder if her memory was prodded by an agenda to stop any appointee to the bench from Trump. Something may have happened but beyond that I don't buy it. I believe Ford should be part of the FBI investigation.

I am sure the FBI will get around to talking to her--- they are talking to others first; they will also talk with Kavanaugh ---for sure

 

[black_squirrel]

I don't know if Ford is lying but giving her lack of memory on every detail but then claims she is 100% positive Kavanaugh is the perp makes me wonder if her memory was prodded by an agenda to stop any appointee to the bench from Trump. Something may have happened but beyond that I don't buy it. I believe Ford should be part of the FBI investigation.

Her memory seemed pretty detailed to me. Of course she doesn't remember all details. But she remembers a lot more than Kavanaugh and as far as I can tell, her memory hasn't been refuted. She has also has been very precise in her statements, and how confident she was of each of the details. Some she wasn't 100% sure of, but she was 100% it was Kavanaugh.

 

[ilovewings]

I don't know if Ford is lying but giving her lack of memory on every detail but then claims she is 100% positive Kavanaugh is the perp makes me wonder if her memory was prodded by an agenda to stop any appointee to the bench from Trump. Something may have happened but beyond that I don't buy it. I believe Ford should be part of the FBI investigation.

First of all, the Democrats know that only Trump can make the nomination so if BK doesn't get nominated Trump will nominate another candidate. Hopefully the next candidate won't have so much baggage( BK has a lot of history that has nothing to do with sexual assault allegations)

I do not believe for one second that the Dems have an "agenda"-- i am not big on conspiracy theories--- if it turns out that the events did not occur, or she was wrong about the young man that allegedly assaulted her, i think it would have more to do with her faulty memory: it could also be that a therapist put an idea in her mind, like that of repressed memories or some such thing:

 

[ilovewings]

If asked to choose who I believe on the matter of whether or not Dr. Ford was sexually assaulted by Should Never Be on Any Court Kavanaugh, and given the allegations haven't been fully investigated (and likely never will be), my answer is I believe Dr. Ford.

The more relevant question, IMO, is whether Kavanaugh disqualified himself by how he responded to Ford's allegations, both before and during the hearing, whether or not her allegations are true.

She, facing this most difficult & stressful event of her life, was visibly terrified and entirely out of her element. It was painful -and touching- to watch her try to use the microphone in front of her appropriately (she never got the hang of it).

Despite everything, she remained dignified, polite, and responsive, despite facing a prosecutor's questions that asked for hair splitting replies, and despite the fact the prosecutor was clearly challenging the veracity of her story, and playing gotcha when Ford's replies deviated even one hair's width away from prior statements. Everyone present at that hearing said they found her credible, - enough so that apparently a deep gloom descended in the WH, and most staffers thought K's nomination was dead. Everyone at the hearing also said they believed she had been sexually assaulted, even if some qualified their belief by saying Ford must have confused K with someone else.

To sum up: a victim of sexual assault went in front of the world, relived and told of the humiliation of her assault being the source of uncontainable amusement by her assailants, and yet never responded with anger at her allegations being challenged.

Then there was Kavanaugh. Forget the disqualifying & highly disturbing partisan accusations. Forget the anger he couldn't control, and/or that he chose to use strategically, especially when he wanted to evade replying directly to straightforward questions he had to have anticipated, given his weeklong coaching sessions at the WH.

Forget, even, that this supposedly impeccably credentialed JUDGE asking for a seat on the Supreme Court repeatedly misstated the evidence relating to Ford's charges. None of the four potential witnesses REFUTED Ford's allegations. Not one. Presumably, or at least hopefully, K knows the difference between a witness REFUTING something and a witness saying he/she has no knowledge or memory of that something. Perhaps that seems a trivial distinction to laymen, but it isn't to lawyers and judges; the law is frequently about making just those kind of distinctions.

Forget even that Kavanaugh gave misleading answers about his drinking, his underaged drinking, and that he almost certainly flat out lied in response to every year book related question.

Even stretching so far as to excuse/overlook ALL of that, what most bothers me and what I find most disqualifying, is his insistence, even if he had to commit perjury to maintain it, of presenting himself as an unchallengable paragon of virtue, even in high school.

What matters isn't the fact that he lied about what Devil's Triangle or Bofu meant, it's the fact that he felt the need to lie, the fact that he knew his yearbook lies were absurd on their face & unbelievable, and about the fact that he was incapable of accepting responsibility/owning up to what were truly trivial "transgressions" that were absolutely commonplace for his peers at that time in that place.

A man with integrity, one capable of introspection and an insistence on truth, both within and without, would have simply told the truth, and
remarked that he was a teenage boy, living in an elite culture, but like all teenagers, learning how to navigate social relationships, and not always getting it right.

Who could possibly fault him for that? It is his inability to accept responsibility for even the most minor of "transgressions," and the sheer ease he displayed in choosing to lie and tell half truths about himself and his accuser's accusations to avoid doing so that convince me he entirely lacks the character and judgement necessary to merit a seat on the SC.

I really like your well thought out posting and I agree with it. the problem with BK is the way he has dealt with this situation. I have to reiterate, i do not believe he is fit to be a jurist on the supreme court; i can just imagine what the supreme court justices are thinking as they watch this travesty play out for the world.