NY - Twenty Fatality Traffic Crash, Schoharie County, 6 Oct 2018

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carole said:
There is no flashing light, just a regular stop sign. That was the wrong street view. You can see the correct intersection in CARIIS’s video at about 2:00 (posted above, and here).

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a lot of things of strange these days! Like the media talking about the stop sign -- it does not matter if there was a gate there!

IMO This is a loss of operational control accident . The driver had no control of the vehicle.

The lack of tire marks anywhere in the accident arena clearly indicate he had no control of the vehicle as it relates to speed management.

Forgetting that (we can't but bear with me!) the veer to the left is much more indicative of an attempt of some sort not to go crashing directly into the forest ahead.

Media has described blowing through the sign -- that might indicate not paying attn - if that were the case it would be more likely that the trajectory would not have as profound a swerve to the left.

If it was loss of attn and focus it would seem the vehicle would have proceeded straight forward for a longer duration before a directional control input was applied by the driver.

The angles (although not totally accurate) also IMo indicate a veer to the left began higher up on the hill (IE Oh sh$t I have no braking capability)

IMO it makes it more awful for victims in that I would think there would have been an increasing awareness , with speed building up as the vehicle got closer to the the end of the road.

Those in the back would obviously be paying increasingly more attn to the drivers behaviors as the crash sequence proceeded .

I keep thinking the speed is gonna high , but the limo was not bad. But it had energy sheared off with impact with the SUV and the actual crash site was wet, soft and mushy allowing IMO , a more tempered deceleration of vehicle. Softer energy absorption. During the crash sequence it could get energy tampered down more slowly.

IMO the lethality is a sole result of seatbelts and modification that was not up to impact structural integrity standards.

moo and filled with speculation!!
 
Jax49 said:
This interview with the father's sister indicates the parents are living and both are "broken". I don't know how they'll survive.

ETA: Forgot link.

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bbm

It is an incomprehensible loss the parents suffered, losing four daughter and the husbands of their daughters, but my hope is that the grandchildren will be a reason to summon up the courage and strength to go on with their lives, and my hope is they have a strong support system around them (which seems to be the case).

It's possible that the husbands of the daughters have siblings, and perhaps those siblings will take in their nieces/nephews. Whatever the case, my heart goes out to all of them.

To think this tragedy may be the result of negligence rather than a horrible accident is truly salt in the wound, to put it mildly.

My sincere and heartfelt condolences to the surviving loved ones.

jmo
 
CocoChanel said:
I know very little about how LE uses and manages their confidential informants. They call them CI’s which could also stand for CRIMINAL informant. It is clear that it is a shadowy underbelly of law and order, one that some might say is a necessary evil. I can’t help but think that these CI’s begin to feel even more entitled than they already do since they have already proven they believe they are above the law. If this limo company owner was the prolific informant reports have made him out to be, it is easy to assume he felt immune to consequences for ignoring rules, regulations and simple upkeep, maintenance and safety regulations for his businesses. And now 20 deceased innocent people, and hundreds of family and friends are paying the terrible price for that.
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I have learned a lot a about flipping the last year. It always seemed movie of the week stuff!

Evidently it is a widely used (for white collar crimes- I have learned that makes sense!) White collar folks are really scared of the penniatatary! Prison is a deterrent! For the violent offenders who have been in and out of prison for much of their lives - not so much!

It makes sense - sounds like these folks were involved ( to a much lesser degree than all the other big cases ) in white collar criminal activity. Flipping is very common when it is about following "the money "- money laundering, racketeering, taxes etc etc.

That is what these folks sound like they were doing. Just follow the money! Compared to violent offenders - folks doing white collar financial felonies are easy to convict. The proof is in the paperwork.

White collar felonies are not a who done it! They are do they have the documents!

If ya think about it makes sense. They go to the offenders and say hello have a seat! Here are all the financial records we have on you. You can see here we can prove that you were selling driving licenses.

Hand the paperwork to the felon for a glance!

Their not thugs (generally) - they are racketeers! They can look and easily SEE - shi$ - busted!

So then the auth say to them we can prove X X X X you will go to the penn for *advertiser censored* or you can do this XXXX! SO they flip! And at any point if they don't do what they are told they go right to the penn to await trial!

They tend to cooperate in depth and detail - they are not fond of the penitentiary!

So actually, learning about the players in this small operation flipping is not really a surprise any longer. We have been watching all the flipping in really big operations.

It is SOP in white collar financial multiple felony cases .

And if you look at the big ones (Enron etc) it works. The big boys generally do go down - in time. Violent crime is harder to prove.

White collar crime (flipping) takes more time - but they get the bad people - just takes a little longer!!
 
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Lawyer Lee Kindlon representing Prestige Limousine on GMA this morning

He is saying the inspections last month were for minor things, windshield wipers, a latch on a window that needed to be fixed...

Also in this interview Robert Sumwalt, chairman, NTSB replied yes when asked if the engine went beyond the driver's seat. He said, "That is correct. The engine block was pushed back into the driver's compartment, it is hard to tell because there is so much damage."

New details on limo crash that killed 20
 
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Herat said:
The problem is the steep, 7% grade down the hill to the stop sign. The problem is not the intersection itself.

If large trucks were banned from the road because they couldn't brake enough to stop, then there should be a flashing sign at the top of the hill warning of the upcoming stop and telling people to use a lower gear rather than brakes. We have those on mountain roads with steep descents.
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I'm inclined to agree that a far earlier warning would help. It won't stop all the "it will never happen to me" idiots, and it probably won't help those whose vehicles, especially the brakes, are defective, but it should make things much safer overall.

Maybe a flashing sign powered by a solar panel at least 400 yards from the junction combined with rumble strips would help.
 
Note: A driver is prohibited from operating a motor vehicle if the company fails to make this certification.

Vehicle Inspection as stated in 17 (c) NYCRR 721.2 The preceding document link requires Adobe Acrobat Reader

The pre-trip inspection at least shall examine the following items:

Service brakes
Parking brake
Steering mechanism
Lighting devices and reflectors
Tires
Horn
Windshield wipers
Mirrors
Wheels and Rims
Emergency Equipment and exits.
The post-trip inspection report shall note any additional mechanical or safety defects not listed on the pre-trip inspection report that the driver becomes aware of prior to the end of the tour of duty.

https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/operating/osss/bus

.....

This was known by the owner/ driver.

You can not get a license to drive a passenger vehicle without passing a written & driving test. I known I had one, drove a 15 pass van, same as a bus license. He didn’t have a license to drive that vehicle, he knew that.

The owner and the driver are to blame for this, they bother knew. Greed. At any cost.
 
MelmothTheLost said:
I'm inclined to agree that a far earlier warning would help. It won't stop all the "it will never happen to me" idiots, and it probably won't help those whose vehicles, especially the brakes, are defective, but it should make things much safer overall.

Maybe a flashing sign powered by a solar panel at least 400 yards from the junction combined with rumble strips would help.
Click to expand...

I think all alerts would need to start at the top of the hill as the intersection is not clearly visible from there. Rumble strips are going to be far too little too late if you have excessive speed (ie >60 mph) and/or you have burned your brakes out. In fact, they might be hazardous in this particular situation, further destabilizing the vehicle at excessive speed.

Rumble strips work better to waken people to an upcoming stop they hadn't seen, on flat ground.

The extreme length of this vehicle also makes it susceptible to wild swerving and rollover. I think the fact that it didn't roll means the poor driver was trying intently to keep it on the road and if he knew he couldnt stop, at least try to dissipate speed by running into a grassy area. I'm actually impressed that it didnt roll.
 
Elley Mae said:
Note: A driver is prohibited from operating a motor vehicle if the company fails to make this certification.

Vehicle Inspection as stated in 17 (c) NYCRR 721.2 The preceding document link requires Adobe Acrobat Reader

The pre-trip inspection at least shall examine the following items:

Service brakes
Parking brake
Steering mechanism
Lighting devices and reflectors
Tires
Horn
Windshield wipers
Mirrors
Wheels and Rims
Emergency Equipment and exits.
The post-trip inspection report shall note any additional mechanical or safety defects not listed on the pre-trip inspection report that the driver becomes aware of prior to the end of the tour of duty.

https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/operating/osss/bus

.....

This was known by the owner/ driver.

You can not get a license to drive a passenger vehicle without passing a written & driving test. I known I had one, drove a 15 pass van, same as a bus license. He didn’t have a license to drive that vehicle, he knew that.

The owner and the driver are to blame for this, they bother knew. Greed. At any cost.
Click to expand...

Am I correct in believing that Prestige was not the original rental agency for the vehicle that broke down and that they were called in the last minute?

So neither the Prestige manager nor the deceased driver were actually originally scheduled for this trip?
 
A limousine blew a stop sign at the end of a highway and plowed into a parked and unoccupied SUV, killing all 18 people in the limo and two pedestrians in the deadliest transportation accident in the United States in almost a decade, officials said Sunday.

Limo crash in NY town leaves 20 dead in deadliest US transportation accident in nearly 10 years
....
In ref to

The torn up grass from the rd to where the limo ended up.

If it did hit a suv and reading that the engine block was pushed into the front of limo, could the torn up grass be the suv being pushed and ended up behind the van. Haven’t seen an image of suv.
 
Herat said:
Am I correct in believing that Prestige was not the original rental agency for the vehicle that broke down and that they were called in the last minute?

So neither the Prestige manager nor the deceased driver were actually originally scheduled for this trip?
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I have no knowledge of that.
 
Elley Mae said:
Note: A driver is prohibited from operating a motor vehicle if the company fails to make this certification.

Vehicle Inspection as stated in 17 (c) NYCRR 721.2 The preceding document link requires Adobe Acrobat Reader

The pre-trip inspection at least shall examine the following items:

Service brakes
Parking brake
Steering mechanism
Lighting devices and reflectors
Tires
Horn
Windshield wipers
Mirrors
Wheels and Rims
Emergency Equipment and exits.
The post-trip inspection report shall note any additional mechanical or safety defects not listed on the pre-trip inspection report that the driver becomes aware of prior to the end of the tour of duty.

https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/operating/osss/bus

.....

This was known by the owner/ driver.

You can not get a license to drive a passenger vehicle without passing a written & driving test. I known I had one, drove a 15 pass van, same as a bus license. He didn’t have a license to drive that vehicle, he knew that.

The owner and the driver are to blame for this, they bother knew. Greed. At any cost.
Click to expand...

DH drove school bus for several years after he retired. He followed the same general guidelines, with a couple of extras like checking the stop arm and flashers.
 
I’m hard set on the cause being a vehicle that was unfit and a driver who was not qualified. There are many areas in our country with steep inclines that are driven 24/7/365 and there aren’t vehicles careening off the hills left and right on a daily basis and killing scores of passengers. I consider this a heinous crime.
 
Elley Mae said:
I have no knowledge of that.
Click to expand...

Not sure everyone considers Daily Mail a reliable news source (I'm skeptical), but this article mentions that the limousine was substituted for a van.

...Questions mount over car company as it's revealed limo was a last-minute replacement for ANOTHER broken down van...

...The limo had been dispatched at the last minute to replace a bus the group had booked which broke down...

New York limo crash driver is revealed after accident which killed 20 | Daily Mail Online
 
Herat said:
Am I correct in believing that Prestige was not the original rental agency for the vehicle that broke down and that they were called in the last minute?

So neither the Prestige manager nor the deceased driver were actually originally scheduled for this trip?
Click to expand...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/limo-crash-killed-20-schoharie-new-york-prestige-limousine-history-failed-inspections

“The FBI isn't commenting on whether Hussain was an informant. Authorities seized four vehicles from Prestige, including the limo. Police say the victims in the limo had tried to hire a bus through a different company before the crash, but the bus broke down. At the last minute, they hired Prestige.”
 
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