Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #85

[sleuther0192837465]

He didn’t take Libby’s phone. A duffle bag was discarded. Sounds to me like he did not want to get caught with any of those items on his person? MOO

 

[Confusion]

He didn’t take Libby’s phone. A duffle bag was discarded. Sounds to me like he did not want to get caught with any of those items on his person? MOO

I'm not so sure the duffel bag was discarded, I've never heard that one was found. I'm wondering if they only knew about it because the witness who saw him leaving noticed that he was carrying one.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I'm not so sure the duffel bag was discarded, I've never heard that one was found. I'm wondering if they only knew about it because the witness who saw him leaving noticed that he was carrying one.

I’m not sure either :/ I just remember IN LE asking that question & it has bothered me ever since because it was only mentioned one time.

 

[margarita25]

I'm not so sure the duffel bag was discarded, I've never heard that one was found. I'm wondering if they only knew about it because the witness who saw him leaving noticed that he was carrying one.

I think they assume or think he may have had supplies, changed clothes, maybe could be traveling ( hence the Hoosier Hwy reference added with dufflebag quote, iirc)

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

All true, but how would he know he was going to come upon some vulnerable young victims, who were all alone that day? Would he have placed a kit down there, and had a change of clothing, just in case?

Hi katydid,

JMO, but I wondered if he had familiarity with the area and hid a kit there in preparation to commit a crime against *someone* that day. That he didn’t have a particular victim(s) in mind, and just happened to find Abby and Libby during a lull in pedestrian activity. Provided, of course, this was a crime of opportunity.

JMO
RIP M+J

 

[Carebear1977]

Assuming that investigators do in fact have DNA evidence here, I expect that familial DNA research is already ongoing. We've seen numerous cold cases solved in this manner, the capture of The Golden State Killer being the most famous.

That's how this case gets solved IMO.

I wish this were true. Unfortunately the state if Indiana does not currently allow the use of familial DNA. We have been working to get this changed. But as of yet, I don't think it has been. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[MassGuy]

I wish this were true. Unfortunately the state if Indiana does not currently allow the use of familial DNA. We have been working to get this changed. But as of yet, I don't think it has been. Please correct me if I am wrong.

They don’t allow criminal DNA databases to be searched with this method. Several states do allow this, but Indiana isn’t one of them.

That doesn’t mean that outside (non criminal) databases can’t be searched though. So the tools used to catch Golden State, could still be utilized here.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

They don’t allow criminal DNA databases to be searched with this method. Several states do allow this, but Indiana isn’t one of them.

That doesn’t mean that outside (non criminal) databases can’t be searched though. So the tools used to catch Golden State, could still be utilized here.

^^This! Exactly! Using geneaolgy is like a loop hole for LE.

 

[Spartygirl]

Apologies if it has already been posted; I'm on lunch break so just scanned the last couple pages. Has anyone heard about the "Missing girl found inside Semi in KY"? The headline says Michigan girl and to be clear they are NOT talking about Jayme Closs. Missing Michigan girl found inside semi in Kentucky

I originally saw this article via a link from FB (Missing Pieces Network) and it was suggested this guy looks like BG. Definitely has the same nose.

Yes, I have been following this since she went missing and then recently heard she was found in a truck in KY and the man is from my hometown !! YIKES... tomorrow I plan on doing some digging on him as there is a slight resemblance to BG, but I have thought that about several others also LOL.

 

[cailleach]

^^This! Exactly! Using geneaolgy is like a loop hole for LE.

I watched a piece just recently on 20/20 or a similar program with a woman who uses geneaology databases to help solve crimes. IIRR, I've seen the same woman help adopted/abandoned children find their families. It's a great resource to help solve crimes.

 

[Spartygirl]

I am wondering, if BG had previously left his kit, in the 'down the hill' area.
After his horrid actions, he may have a change of clothes, change of appearance, when leaves the area.
He could carry his previous clothes, away from the scene, in a ruck sack.

YES!!! Which brings me back to the press release when LE was asking if anyone had seen a backpack randomly along side the road or tossed out. He had to have removed the top layering of his clothes, which would explain why he appears so bulky, etc. then he can throw top layer of clothes, that were wet and bloody into backpack or sack, and walk out dressed totally different.

 

[cailleach]

Are there any books/articles that do a great job outlining the timeline of events as they're known at this time?

 

[Ozoner]

Yes, I have been following this since she went missing and then recently heard she was found in a truck in KY and the man is from my hometown !! YIKES... tomorrow I plan on doing some digging on him as there is a slight resemblance to BG, but I have thought that about several others also LOL.

But do we even know whether the trucker abducted the girl?
-
She may have just lied about her age and caught a lift from him at a truck stop (which would hardly make him a suspect in this case).
-
I see a slight resemblance to the still images of BG in terms of facial shape, but the trucker certainly isn't a dead ringer for the sketch.

 

[mtnlites]

He looks like BG...and it made me remember the 2 missing persons cases in that area. Both 14, one a red head, and both believed to have been walking alone..........

Lydia Perkins Oct 26, 1997
Red headed 14 year old, last seen walking home.
KY - KY - Lydia Perkins, 14, Lexington, 26 Oct 1997

Amy Haueter Jan 14, 2005
14 years old, Believe to have left home to walk to a friends, before family woke up.
KY - KY - Amy Haueter, 14, Fern Creek, 14 Jan 2005

I live 30 minutes from Lex and I have an aunt and several cousins who live in Delphi and Lafayette. The towns are in different states and when we go up to visit, it takes almost 5 hours. While they may appear geographically close on a map, I don't know a single person in either place who would consider them to be in the same area. For one thing, there is no direct way to get to Delphi from here. You either have to go through Louisville or up through OH and cut across. Cincinnati is 2 hours from us and we don't even consider that being the same area. With Indiana being in the midwest, MANY places are within driving distance (Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, northern KY, even Wisconsin).

 

[sleuther0192837465]

I watched a piece just recently on 20/20 or a similar program with a woman who uses geneaology databases to help solve crimes. IIRR, I've seen the same woman help adopted/abandoned children find their families. It's a great resource to help solve crimes.

Yes it really is an awesome resource! I was so fascinated by ancestry stuff that I sent in my DNA & was just amazed at how it quickly filled in blanks for me with my family tree!
I love hearing about all these cold cases being solved using this technology
As soon as news broke about how they captured the GSK, my very first thought was hoping IN LE would use that same tech for Libby & Abby’s case! I am so thrilled the thread is open now & just felt like we could all finally discuss the possibility of using it to catch BG!

 

[cailleach]

Yes it really is an awesome resource! I was so fascinated by ancestry stuff that I sent in my DNA & was just amazed at how it quickly filled in blanks for me with my family tree!
I love hearing about all these cold cases being solved using this technology
As soon as news broke about how they captured the GSK, my very first thought was hoping IN LE would use that same tech for Libby & Abby’s case! I am so thrilled the thread is open now & just felt like we could all finally discuss the possibility of using it to catch BG!

I so hope this horrible person will be caught and there will be justice for these sweet young girls and their families. I don't believe this was his first murder nor that it will be his last. He has to be caught!!

 

[Charlot123]

Currently, only 12 states have DNA familiar searching, and Indiana is not one of them, according to US News. Illinois and Louisiana are considering it. Although, as I mentioned before, they did pass a law recently that allows DNA testing to those accused of a felony, rather than convicted. Even if they waited until they were able to do a familiar search, it won't be helpful unless a relative has their DNA in the system, or website or whatever it is. It would be interesting to know how many people do this. I don't think it's a very high percentage at this point. But I do think more and more will consider doing it on the future. Jmo

Well, people who download DNA into Gedmatch are interested in genealogy, in family trees.

There is a huge group of people who do these tests for “health”, expect to find them as anonymous users in commercial systems, and many run their DNAs through Promethease, not Gedmatch.

To add, there were some limitations for a few years, for example, 23@me could not process samples from NY and some other states. It is all in the past.

I dumped all our family DNA’s to Gedmatch. Unfortunately, we are not Western Europeans, but whatever one can do. But here comes the new problem, as I have already said, V5 chipped (newest) 23@me samples are not compatible with Gedmatch. To bypass, Gedmatch made a Genesis version, where one can upload newest 23@mes, as well as data from other commercial systems, but the older ones from regular Gedmatch do not get automatically transferred, so we still have to re-upload all ours.

Potentially Geni database can be used too, but 23@me effectively made their data limited to themselves.

 

[coffeeandacig]

I live 30 minutes from Lex and I have an aunt and several cousins who live in Delphi and Lafayette. The towns are in different states and when we go up to visit, it takes almost 5 hours. While they may appear geographically close on a map, I don't know a single person in either place who would consider them to be in the same area. For one thing, there is no direct way to get to Delphi from here. You either have to go through Louisville or up through OH and cut across. Cincinnati is 2 hours from us and we don't even consider that being the same area. With Indiana being in the midwest, MANY places are within driving distance (Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, northern KY, even Wisconsin).

As mentioned in previous threads, BG may have killed before Abby and Libby. If it's true, then geographical profiling may help in finding his location. And that is the angle that I've been researching.

Also in the previous threads, the 2 cases were brought up due to their being unsolved disappearances while these girls were walking alone, and one being a red head. They were also mentioned because of their geographical proximity to Libby German's mother and grandmother's home in Harrodsburg, Ky (20 miles and 58 miles respectively).

 

[JudgeJudi]

Six months after the murders Alexis McAdams reported:

Investigators say Libby hit record after he approached them near the Monon High Bridge. The Investigative Commander said investigators have more audio from Libby’s phone, which was found with the girls at the crime scene.

“It does not appear to be anything more than some discussion between the girls. We have only released a portion of it. There are some others we think could help us, but again, protecting the integrity of the investigation is key so we cannot release everything because there are certain people that know the details and if we release it all then we get into false confessions,” said Sgt. Holeman.

There is no mention of a photo being taken of BG, only the video and the audio recording. Photos and video were also taken before they encountered BG.

Liberty felt something wasn’t right so she started recording.

He wouldn’t comment on whether Libby turned off her phone or whether it kept running.

He wouldn’t comment on whether a weapon had been left at the scene.

Several people who saw BG on the trails that day helped LE develop the composite drawing which took 1 1/2 to 2 weeks to develop. More than a few people said they saw him. It seemed obvious to me that he thinks the person was familiar with the area.

The link contains an Alexis McAdams video and a full interview with the lead investigator.

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence

 

[Charlot123]

You are probably right. I'm not an expert on the different laws from state to state. But my impression is that the laws in some places may be specific only to searching the criminal DNA databases for familial matches-- usually they are looking for closer matches like father/brother in those types of searches. What Parabon and DDN are doing are very recent innovations and may not fall under the existing laws in some states. The number of DNA markers they use for genealogical searches is so much higher than what LE normally records from perps for their DNA databases that DDP has to have new tests done for the sequencing. They can't use a previous DNA test that was run for the criminal database. Like I said, I'm not a legal expert by any means (and I just know a tiny amount about the genealogical DNA methods from reading here) but I think it is possible those laws about familial DNA searches only cover the criminal databases maintained by LE. I also think there may be a loophole in some jurisdictions that most LE are not aware of yet. The genealogical databases like GEDMatch are voluntary and public as opposed to the criminal DNA databases where the DNA is placed there by legal requirement upon arrest and only available to LE. Given some info, technically any knowledgeable citizen could do a genealogical DNA search and then submit a "tip" to LE of who they think the perp was. LE still has to collect DNA and verify it like they did with the GSK. I do hope they find a way to do this with Abby and Libby's case (assuming they have viable DNA available). It would be a shame if existing laws made it impossible. MOO.

Personally, if my/family DNA helps catch a serial killer, i’d be only too happy. However, I am not a lawyer, from a legal standpoint I understand that privacy is a serious thing. But obtaining DNA from someone suspected should not be a problem, the problem is to narrow down to a few suspects. On the other hand, collecting DNA even from a few people looks so much better than old lineup!