Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

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TPS are not over worked and under staffed. It’s just about the highest paid police force in NOrth America. The problem is they have highly paid personnel doing jobs that should be done by someone earning half the salary and lots of other organizational problems.

Yes ok, so just wrong people doing to the wrong jobs.

I do not believe Wayne Millard was a TPS case, and they caught the Gay Village serial killer, compared to most jurisdictions the TPS has been quite efficient.

After they told the Gay village there was nothing to worry about. I also think they totally dropped the ball on the Laura Babcock case. Just looking at her last call would have led them straight to the killer.
 
*with a grain of salt*

We were asking police last night if anybody looked to see if there was a blank cheque in Barry Sherman’s wallet — since he is said to have always carried one.

BBM

From Joe Warmington, the Sun:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/toronto...gle-or-capitulate-in-sherman-murder-probe/amp


I wonder if there’s any truth to this in some way or form. I don’t know anything about them-but what if it’s a cashier’s cheque? A bearer bond?

Might explain why someone would be hellbent on insisting on it being a murder/suicide instead of murder.
 
Sherman family investigators hand over earring, other evidence collected at murdered billionaires’ home, to Toronto police | The Star
By Kevin DonovanChief Investigative Reporter
" Nov. 1, 2018
A bag filled with fibres vacuumed from the indoor pool room where murder victims Barry and Honey Sherman were discovered has been turned over to Toronto police detectives by the Sherman family private investigation team.

That handover comes several weeks after police warned the Sherman family’s lawyer they would seek a judicial warrant if potential evidence was not immediately handed over, sources close to the case have told the Star."
"An earring discovered in the driveway has also being turned over by the private team.

The development continues an acrimonious relationship that has been building for ten months between the Sherman family and Toronto police."
 
ABRO what is your working theory on this case? What do you think happened?
I genuinely don't know.

At first I thought it was murder suicide. And it still could be -- but only if the Toronto police completely botched this investigation by following the lead of the the PI team without evidence. I know that TPS hasn't exactly inspired confidence as of late, but this case was in headlines around the world from Day One so, in that way, it's very different from the other cases they screwed up.

I'm now inclined to believe that it was more complicated than a murder suicide.

I also think Greenspan and the Star have spun their story that the cops did an about-face pretty successfully. Initially, I believed it, but when I revisited the facts I found there is a lot pointing to the idea that the cops did not all agree it was a murder suicide, even in the early days of the investigation.

Why search the roof and sewers in that case? Why hold the scene six weeks?

Also, their pathologist removed and kept the skin from the Shermans' wrists. That indicates he had questions and the police unquestionably knew that.

As for the accusations police didn't do this and didn't interview that person until months or weeks later, that could also be because they have a strong suspect.

In the end, I just don't know.
 
If you take a crime and simply try to make it look like something else, it can be relatively obvious. If you take a crime and make it look like two or three other things, its becomes virtually impossible to figure out.

So basically he may have committed murder/suicide, staged it to appear like a double suicide, but then added some elements that would suggest double murder. The goal may have been to create a situation where police would be torn between double murder or double suicide, never considering what actually happened. These are things a brilliant man would do, I know, I worked with billionaires for much of my life. They simply have a different way of thinking than you and I do.

Well, this is what I meant when I asked why the bodies were hanging by the pool in the manner they were. The staging seems an attempt to confound and confuse.

Would or could Barry Sherman do that? I think there are things in his character that suggest he might. This is why I thought for a long time it was probably murder suicide and I still consider it an option.

OTOH I think you have made an awful lot of assumptions based on the Greenspan/Star spin. There are plenty of indications that the police were considering more than the murder suicide scenario from quite early on. These include a six week investigation of the crime scene including a roof and sewer search and the fact their own pathologist removed the skin from the Shermans' wrists. Gomes could well have been relaying the facts.

I've always wondered if the crime scene might have been inspired by a fictional plot in a movie or book. Apparently, Barry loved the movies.
 
Robin Williams was found in a seated upright position, a belt attached to his neck but “Autopsy results revealed Williams' death was caused by asphyxia and hanging....”
Robin Williams: Autopsy Confirms Death by Suicide

When the Shermans’ cause of deaths were announced it was referred to as “strangulation”, not hanging, BBM

“Apotex founder Barry Sherman, 75, and his wife, Honey Sherman, 70, both died from "ligature neck compression," meaning strangulation, police said in a statement issued Sunday...”
Homicide investigators take lead in Barry and Honey Sherman case | CBC News

This pathology article below differentiates Neck Compression between, strangulation or hanging depending on the location of the ligature marks. I don’t recall this being discussed before. Is this saying the Day 2 Autopsy revealing cause of death had already recognized that neither died in the position the bodies were found, seated upright by belts attached to the pool railing, considering the police reference to “strangulation” as opposed to “hanging”?

Strangulation / hanging
  • Definition: external pressure on neck resulting in compression of blood vessels and occasionally airway
  • Strangulation: neck compression due to something other than the victim's body weight, such as manual compression or ligature tightened by assailant; usually homicidal
    • Ligature strangulation: the ligature mark on the neck is usually horizontal
    • If homicidal (most common), may be signs of struggle (abrasions / lacerations and fingernail marks on neck)
    • Suicidal strangulations can occur if individual ties cord or other ligature around neck with some sort of locking device
    • Accidental strangulations can occur if scarf or necktie becomes trapped in doorway or other mechanical device
  • Hanging: neck compression due to ligature around neck, with at least a portion of body weight being used to tighten ligature
    • Usually suicidal; can be accidental (child trapped in cord) or homicidal
    • Ligature mark on neck is oblique, with highest point usually at back of head, where ligature knot is tied
    • This is in contrast to strangulation (usually homicide), where ligature mark is usually horizontal around neck
    • Ligature mark may be absent if soft fabric (i.e. bed sheet) used as ligature
    • May see pattern markings in ligature mark that correspond to patterns on ligature (i.e. weaved fabric, metal chain)
Asphyxia
 
Does anyone know if the lights in the pool area were on when they were found and if the pool lights would be visible from a neighbor's house if they were on? It would presumably more difficult to commit a murder suicide in the dark .
Since Honey was found in the clothes she wore that day the murder very likely happened at night on December 13th.
Any information on the lighting or if outside lighting could have lit up the pool area at night sufficiently might help clarify things .
 
Does anyone know if the lights in the pool area were on when they were found and if the pool lights would be visible from a neighbor's house if they were on?
IIRC correctly, the outside entrance to the pool area was from the garage, which was located underground, so I doubt it was visible to any neighbours. Access to that pool (there are two pools on the property, one being indoors while the other was an outdoor pool) was through the lower garage and within the home but located on the lower level. I hope I explained this correctly.

Somebody will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Welcome to Websleuths, Mikos34. :)
 
Does anyone know if the lights in the pool area were on when they were found and if the pool lights would be visible from a neighbor's house if they were on? It would presumably more difficult to commit a murder suicide in the dark .
Since Honey was found in the clothes she wore that day the murder very likely happened at night on December 13th.
Any information on the lighting or if outside lighting could have lit up the pool area at night sufficiently might help clarify things .
According to the floorplans of the Sherman residence, it appears those glass blocks as the wall of the pool room, are adjoined by the underground garage. Hard to imagine why one would put glass blocks leading to a dark indoor area with likely no windows though? (I posted the floorplans upthread a few days ago) Here is the pic of the pool area, showing the glass block wall.

pool.jpg
 
IIRC correctly, the outside entrance to the pool area was from the garage, which was located underground, so I doubt it was visible to any neighbours. Access to that pool (there are two pools on the property, one being indoors while the other was an outdoor pool) was through the lower garage and within the home but located on the lower level. I hope I explained this correctly.

Somebody will chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Welcome to Websleuths, Mikos34. :)
I'm not certain there was an outdoor pool, I think it was tennis courts or at least lawn from the aerial pictures I've seen. I could be wrong.
 
I'm not certain there was an outdoor pool, I think it was tennis courts or at least lawn from the aerial pictures I've seen. I could be wrong.
There was also an outdoor pool.

47610D8A00000578-5185511-The_sprawling_home_backyard_pictured_has_five_bedrooms_nine_bath-a-3_1513598571563.jpg


Canadian police probe 'suspicious' death of billionaire | Daily Mail Online
 
Well, this is what I meant when I asked why the bodies were hanging by the pool in the manner they were. The staging seems an attempt to confound and confuse.

Would or could Barry Sherman do that? I think there are things in his character that suggest he might. This is why I thought for a long time it was probably murder suicide and I still consider it an option.

OTOH I think you have made an awful lot of assumptions based on the Greenspan/Star spin. There are plenty of indications that the police were considering more than the murder suicide scenario from quite early on. These include a six week investigation of the crime scene including a roof and sewer search and the fact their own pathologist removed the skin from the Shermans' wrists. Gomes could well have been relaying the facts.

I've always wondered if the crime scene might have been inspired by a fictional plot in a movie or book. Apparently, Barry loved the movies.
I appreciate your response. I feel that TPS investigated this case for six week due to a couple of factors. First off, the family was so vocal in those early days, and given their incredible wealth, TPS knew that they would be challenged if they determined this to be a murder/suicide. That is obvious. Given the staging, it is hard to prove the MOD without doing a thorough investigation, looking for any evidence that would prove or disprove the murder/suicide theory. Secondly, botching the Millard, Babcock and McArthur cases had put an incredible amount of pressure on the department. It is my feeling that this fact in particular was key in TPS labeling this crime as a double murder. The family had already assembled a prominent team of investigators, and despite what some here may believe, they were being paid by the family to discredit the murder/suicide theory. If TPS had labeled this crime as a murder suicide, it is almost a certainty that there would have been front page news from the Greenspan team, saying that TPS incompetents had botched another case. And lets not forget that the family was using political influence as well, meeting with Wynne, Trudeau and Tory at the memorial. And be very conscious of the fact that Tory met with Saunders immediately after, specifically to discuss this case.

I believe that TPS simply made the decision to label this case a double murder and let it go cold. Simple as that. They knew that the family would be appeased and that the threat of incompetency headlines would be abated. There would be no threat to the public and the only negative would be an unsolved case on the books.

Is there evidence to support this theory? I believe so. In my opinion the fact that TPS never even eliminated people known to be at the crime scene by collecting DNA samples shows that they never really investigated this as the homicide that they were maintaining it was. Isn't that basically one of the first things you do? The fact that this task hasn't even begun, while the lead investigator has stopped working the case full time gives a pretty good indication that a murder investigation never really even began.
 
I genuinely don't know.


Why search the roof and sewers in that case? Why hold the scene six weeks?

Also, their pathologist removed and kept the skin from the Shermans' wrists. That indicates he had questions and the police unquestionably knew that.

I believe these two sentences are connected. I believe they were looking for the missing wrist bindings and ligatures. But lets just ask ourselves if possibly Barry was smart enough to confuse investigators? Could he have tied each of their wrists tightly for an hour or so, the removed the laces and returned them to his shoes? Or possibly he could have originally planned to make this look like a double murder, then decided to change his plan? I always think back to Jonbenet Ramsey and the half assed wrist restraints that were put on her. When you have a staged crime scene it is difficult to decide what is real and what is staged.
 
BINGO ..... Good point Ann .... I never thought of it that way until now .
As usual , you point out things we may have missed . Very good.
Thanks.
TPS were simply covering their asses and doing a thorough crime scene investigation. To you honestly not think that Greenspans team wouldn't have torn them apart if they determined murder/suicide, and were out of the house in a couple of days?
 
I appreciate your response. I feel that TPS investigated this case for six week due to a couple of factors. First off, the family was so vocal in those early days, and given their incredible wealth, TPS knew that they would be challenged if they determined this to be a murder/suicide. That is obvious. Given the staging, it is hard to prove the MOD without doing a thorough investigation, looking for any evidence that would prove or disprove the murder/suicide theory. Secondly, botching the Millard, Babcock and McArthur cases had put an incredible amount of pressure on the department. It is my feeling that this fact in particular was key in TPS labeling this crime as a double murder. The family had already assembled a prominent team of investigators, and despite what some here may believe, they were being paid by the family to discredit the murder/suicide theory. If TPS had labeled this crime as a murder suicide, it is almost a certainty that there would have been front page news from the Greenspan team, saying that TPS incompetents had botched another case. And lets not forget that the family was using political influence as well, meeting with Wynne, Trudeau and Tory at the memorial. And be very conscious of the fact that Tory met with Saunders immediately after, specifically to discuss this case.

I believe that TPS simply made the decision to label this case a double murder and let it go cold. Simple as that. They knew that the family would be appeased and that the threat of incompetency headlines would be abated. There would be no threat to the public and the only negative would be an unsolved case on the books.

Is there evidence to support this theory? I believe so. In my opinion the fact that TPS never even eliminated people known to be at the crime scene by collecting DNA samples shows that they never really investigated this as the homicide that they were maintaining it was. Isn't that basically one of the first things you do? The fact that this task hasn't even begun, while the lead investigator has stopped working the case full time gives a pretty good indication that a murder investigation never really even began.
I read at one point that this murder investigation had severely taxed the budget of the TPS. I feel like TPS wouldn't be that irresponsible with finances if they had evidence that it was instead a murder/suicide and that no perp was at large. Even though they may have proven incompetent in a few high profile cases in the past few years, they aren't *that* incompetent, imho. So they try to keep their budget in mind, and they still get criticized. Would one really expect the head detective on the case to be doing the legwork and admin tasks, rather than delegating to a lower-paid designate? It seems there are pallets of paper to go through, and hours of video footage. Hundreds of people to interview.

Why would they care if the family or Greenspan or the media or anyone else was giving them a hard time and 'challenging' their work - facts are facts. If the facts showed that it was a murder/suicide, they would back it up and perhaps share with the family what unequivocal evidence was which led them to that conclusion (since the family would no longer be considered as potential POIs in the case). They aren't going to slap a double homicide determination on a high profile case, just because their screwups in the past have put pressure on them and they want to make sure they can get it right *this* time - so just be safe, call it murder, put it in the bottom drawer, and it will go away? That seems ridiculous imho.

You posted earlier in the thread that we would not hear anything further on this case - that the family only cared about the determination being labeled as double homicide, and now there was no use for their team of detectives. But that was wrong. You intimated earlier that police aren't really working on this case, since there is nothing to work on, but in the past couple of days it came to light that more production orders have been created. A judge has said the investigation is ongoing. It seems your earlier notions have been incorrect, but yet the allegations of lies and corruption continues.

Sometimes we have to be careful not to put our personal experiences, feelings, and baggage onto our perceptions of everything else - which is also what the police have to do, to keep open minds in order to investigate fully. Perhaps this case is above the capabilities of TPS and they require the services of the Canadian equivalent of the FBI or something to look at this one.

I have no idea why TPS, if it is true, have not processed footprints, fingerprints, palmprints, and DNA and evidence from the scene and compared it with those who were known to have been in the home most recently - perhaps this also speaks to incompetence? It sure seems like it, although it is difficult to imagine Toronto being so incompetent. Even if they have potential suspects in mind, does not excuse them from examining *all* of the evidence and doing a complete, proper investigation. Imagine if they had found evidence of someone in the home who was involved in one of Barry's many lawsuits, and that party had clearly stated it had never been in the home?
 
<snipped for reply>

Is there evidence to support this theory? I believe so. In my opinion the fact that TPS never even eliminated people known to be at the crime scene by collecting DNA samples shows that they never really investigated this as the homicide that they were maintaining it was. Isn't that basically one of the first things you do? The fact that this task hasn't even begun, while the lead investigator has stopped working the case full time gives a pretty good indication that a murder investigation never really even began.

Aside from perhaps focusing on any DNA on the bodies or in the immediate pool area, do you really think a crime such as this would be solved by investigators scouring a 12,000 sq ft house for DNA, then asking everyone who had been in the home ever since it was built to come forward, leaving only one sample which automatically is that of the killer? Investigation is just not that simple and it’s not as if DNA leaves a calling card. It’s value is most effective in rape cases where bodily fluids are left behind.

There’s also many problems with “a needle in the haystack” investigation such as looking for DNA somewhere in a home to solve a crime. The biggest is there’s no time stamp of Dec 13th on DNA and even if LE identified a suspect through those means, stepping foot in the Sherman home considering it was listed for sale is not a crime in itself. Even if a suspect lied and later changed their story, lying is not adequate proof of murder. And so how would LE ever be able to truthfully determine who had been in the home in order to eliminate all DNA considering both victims are dead?

It’s more likely for LE to identify strong leads by other means (interviews with family/friends/associates, cellular data or video, etc), covertly obtain a DNA sample and determine if there’s a match, later subpoena DNA to make it legal and as the investigation moves forward in seeking other incriminating evidence, then cross and dot their t’s and i’s by DNA elimination to mitigate allegations by a defence that LE failed to look at any other possibilities.

Therefore the fact that this late day elimination of DNA was never prioritized indicates LE was never in the position of shrugging their shoulders “no idea, who did this?” It could also indicate they are in the final stages of concluding the investigation, prior to charges being laid.
 
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