Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

[Sustained]

ok wait... I'm confused lol Since you think SA is guilty, this statement actually looks bad for Bobby or good for SA, doesn't it? That was on the 3rd, why did Bobby assume she was dead? I can understand why they were discussing it, that was the night that Colborn showed up around 6:30pm... and around 7pm is when Steve and Chuck went to Menards. I wonder around what time Bobby would have said that to Bryan?

That's just it - I don't think Bobby said anything to Bryan on the 4th and maybe not at all. Why would Bryan testify to the statement ? I don't know the answer to that. But it could also be as simple as Bobby not wanting to implicate SA or his own brother to Bryan by saying she left.

 

[leslievernon]

here, an article from today reg. zellner and the avery case.
exerpt:
"Zellner continues to research and fight for Avery's freedom. In the past two years, Zellner has funded Avery’s legal defense, as well as all the experts needed for her research. She’s accumulated a sum of $839,000 in both attorney time and expert pay. Her current timeline expects news on an evidentiary hearing by the end of 2019."

hah.. wheels of justice really run slow as .
jesus. and by that wording, it means that they have to wait a year for someone to say yes or no hearing... this is tough.

 

[ClockworkLemon]

The day planner. Teresa spoke with two people on the day of her disappearance to set up appointments, which she wrote down in her planner while she was out driving. Zellner calculated that Teresa would not have had enough time between appointments to drop her planner off at her house, and yet Hillegas provided the page from her day planner as evidence. Zellner argues that since Teresa couldn't have dropped the planner off at home, it must have been in her car when she was killed, and the only way Ryan Hillegas would have had it was if he'd had access to the car before it was found on the Avery property.

I can see how it wouldn’t make sense for TH to drop her day planner back at home in the middle of the day, right before going to a job. It seemed like she was a busy gal and would want to keep that until she retired to her home, so I think KZ is onto something. The only hole in the story I see is why. Why would Hillegas help the police set up SA. Since KZ thinks BD and ST committed the crime, why would Hillegas comply with the cops and why would the cops approach a civilian for help? I see the motive for the cops to set up SA, I see how she thinks Bobby D. is a freak and had an opportunity so he’s a likely suspect, I just don’t see how Hillegas fits in, or more why he did what she’s alleging he did. I can think of only three reasons:
1) RH is actually guilty of the murder.
2) Cops threaten him, tell him he’s their main suspect unless he cooperates.
3) Cops tell him that they are 100% sure it’s Avery and convince him that it’s his civic duty to set Avery up to solidify a conviction.
Anyone think of any other reason?

 

[missy1974]

I haven't posted on this case in quite some time but did see MaM2. Nothing that was presented there convinced me that SA had nothing to do with it in fact the whole series is all pro-SA. Brain fingerprinting ? Why not a simple set of lie detector tests administered by multiple parties ?

As to the timeline, what about the call she made @ 12:44pm that bounced off the tower closest to her home ?
There is nothing on the day planner that indicates it was in the Rav4 when TH went to the salvage yard.

Thanks for telling me a jury has to decide - IMO, Zellner will never get the chance.

And this is an anonymous internet forum - everyone is cool.

I haven't even finished watching MaM2, but from what I have seen, they give an overview of some things, but by no means is everything that has come out in the last 3 years, that is for sure. Just like the first series couldn't cover the "whole trial".

What I took from the brain fingerprinting thing was that it was more for Zellner herself than it was for the courts, but JMO.

The 12:44/45 call was the other Steve from Sheboygan, who did the affidavit for Avery/Zellner. The Denise on there (on the Tuesday at noon was the earlier call). I tend to think she was at home for that earlier call, the Steve one is a bit trickier, because it was close to the time that she would have been leaving to start her AT appointments. It could have been something Teresa said to whoever she was talking to, but we have no way of knowing if it's true. I notice that her AT work times are blocked out, with not much info on them, I think she used those lead sheets that AT sent her to track her appointments and not necessarily her day planner.

By the way... that Steve... he is the one that called AutoTrader on the Thursday November 3rd and told them that Teresa "never showed". It morphed into Steven Avery called AutoTrader and said that... but it wasn't. I do believe that is where the rumor of her 'not showing' came from, or at least that is what Kratz has tried to spew all these years

 

[missy1974]

I can see how it wouldn’t make sense for TH to drop her day planner back at home in the middle of the day, right before going to a job. It seemed like she was a busy gal and would want to keep that until she retired to her home, so I think KZ is onto something. The only hole in the story I see is why. Why would Hillegas help the police set up SA. Since KZ thinks BD and ST committed the crime, why would Hillegas comply with the cops and why would the cops approach a civilian for help? I see the motive for the cops to set up SA, I see how she thinks Bobby D. is a freak and had an opportunity so he’s a likely suspect, I just don’t see how Hillegas fits in, or more why he did what she’s alleging he did. I can think of only three reasons:
1) RH is actually guilty of the murder.
2) Cops threaten him, tell him he’s their main suspect unless he cooperates.
3) Cops tell him that they are 100% sure it’s Avery and convince him that it’s his civic duty to set Avery up to solidify a conviction.
Anyone think of any other reason?

Ya know... the guy comes off as shady and like he is hiding something, plus the fact that LE didn't investigate him right away, but they didn't even know he was an ex-boyfriend. I am really leaning towards him and maybe her brother or brothers going to the yard on the Friday night and finding the vehicle when they didn't have permission to be there, which would then make it illegal and could have been not used as evidence. But at the same time, I really don't think the RAV4 was there earlier in the day on Friday when they did the flyovers... how convenient is it that the footage cuts off right at the point we should have seen the RAV4? and more than once in those flyovers.

It was also way to coincidental that Pam was given a camera and Pagel's number and sent to the Salvage yard the next morning and it didn't take her long to find it. It may have been that Ryan showed her a map of the Salvage Yard and "suggested" a route, knowing they would find the RAV4 quicker.

 

[Sustained]

I haven't even finished watching MaM2, but from what I have seen, they give an overview of some things, but by no means is everything that has come out in the last 3 years, that is for sure. Just like the first series couldn't cover the "whole trial".

What I took from the brain fingerprinting thing was that it was more for Zellner herself than it was for the courts, but JMO.

The 12:44/45 call was the other Steve from Sheboygan, who did the affidavit for Avery/Zellner. The Denise on there (on the Tuesday at noon was the earlier call). I tend to think she was at home for that earlier call, the Steve one is a bit trickier, because it was close to the time that she would have been leaving to start her AT appointments. It could have been something Teresa said to whoever she was talking to, but we have no way of knowing if it's true. I notice that her AT work times are blocked out, with not much info on them, I think she used those lead sheets that AT sent her to track her appointments and not necessarily her day planner.

By the way... that Steve... he is the one that called AutoTrader on the Thursday November 3rd and told them that Teresa "never showed". It morphed into Steven Avery called AutoTrader and said that... but it wasn't. I do believe that is where the rumor of her 'not showing' came from, or at least that is what Kratz has tried to spew all these years

Found this on Reddit on TH's afternoon timeline :

1. Halbach to Schmitz is about 22 miles (28min w/o traffic)
2. Schmitz to Zipperer is about 40 miles (44min w/o traffic)
3. Zipperer to Avery is about 10 miles (13min w/o traffic)

Edit: If you work backwards from the undisputed phone call to Autotrader @ 2:27pm that TH is heading to the Avery property and is about 10 minutes out, the call probably took place near the Zipperer property where she was supposed to have been for about 10 minutes, which means she arrived there around 2:15-2:20pm, and that places her departure from the Schmitz location around 1:30pm where she spent about 10 minutes, meaning she arrived there around 1:15pm. If she went straight to her first appointment from her place, she would have hit the road around 12:45pm.

If she left home around 12:45pm, the 12:44pm call would have bounced off the tower closest to her home. She may have been en route home earlier that day when Denise called her @ 11:35am and TH had to pull over to write in the Wed appt. And IMO, TH left the day planner @ home as there are no scribblings from her afternoon AT appts. Much easier to explain how RH got it and turned it over. And if RH was guilty, why in the world would he turn over a day planner and possibly implicate himself ?

I am aware of the Steve S. affadavit placing TH in Sheboygan @ 12:44pm, but then the cell tower closest to her home could not be correct. But is still possible she left the day planner @ home and went to Sheboygan. In the affadavit, she tells Steve S. that she could meet in the next 30 minutes which would have ended @ 1:15pm. But her appt at the Schmitz was @ 1:30 and the drive time from Sheboygan to the Schmitz residence is 35 minutes which would have made her at least 25 minutes late.

 

[missy1974]

That's just it - I don't think Bobby said anything to Bryan on the 4th and maybe not at all. Why would Bryan testify to the statement ? I don't know the answer to that. But it could also be as simple as Bobby not wanting to implicate SA or his own brother to Bryan by saying she left.

Ok, I read it wrong too. I read it as the 3rd, it was on the 4th, which means it had hit the news and everything by then. SA was doing interviews, LE had already been back out there and checked SA's trailer.

Bryan would testify to that statement if it was true, wouldn't he? And if Bobby just said it to not implicate SA or Brendan, why did he change his story months later? Bobby definitely changed his story, which is suspicious, I really wish some of these people would just come clean.... it could be for reasons other than they killed Teresa. LE did pit Bobby against SA early on when they told Bobby on the 5th that SA said Bobby was the last to see her (was in a recorded call between Jodi and SA). I will try to find those documents later... I just don't have the time at the moment ;-)

 

[Sustained]

Ok, I read it wrong too. I read it as the 3rd, it was on the 4th, which means it had hit the news and everything by then. SA was doing interviews, LE had already been back out there and checked SA's trailer.

Bryan would testify to that statement if it was true, wouldn't he? And if Bobby just said it to not implicate SA or Brendan, why did he change his story months later? Bobby definitely changed his story, which is suspicious, I really wish some of these people would just come clean.... it could be for reasons other than they killed Teresa. LE did pit Bobby against SA early on when they told Bobby on the 5th that SA said Bobby was the last to see her (was in a recorded call between Jodi and SA). I will try to find those documents later... I just don't have the time at the moment ;-)

I think with the Averys you get a lot of half-truths and a bunch of outright lies.

 

[Karinna]

here, an article from today reg. zellner and the avery case.
exerpt:
"Zellner continues to research and fight for Avery's freedom. In the past two years, Zellner has funded Avery’s legal defense, as well as all the experts needed for her research. She’s accumulated a sum of $839,000 in both attorney time and expert pay. Her current timeline expects news on an evidentiary hearing by the end of 2019."

hah.. wheels of justice really run slow as ****.
jesus. and by that wording, it means that they have to wait a year for someone to say yes or no hearing... this is tough.

Yes it takes a long time for an exoneration post conviction. I read some can take up to 15 years.
KZ did state that the longest one she had was 4 years. I think she is okay for being in it for the long haul because she knows procedure wise what she is up against and i'm sure she has other cases she is working on in the interim.

 

[Sustained]

Yes it takes a long time for an exoneration post conviction. I read some can take up to 15 years.
KZ did state that the longest one she had was 4 years. I think she is okay for being in it for the long haul because she knows procedure wise what she is up against and i'm sure she has other cases she is working on in the interim.

I don't if KZ will succeed or not, but the time it will take to get to the end may not be enough time for Allan & Delores who I believe are in their 80s.

 

[Karinna]

Bit O/T. have any of you been following the Wisconsin election results,
Some good tweets by J. Buting as well.

 

[proudfootz]

New governor and attorney general in Wisconsin, apparently.

 

[captnchuck67]

I said in another thread about RH,read any FBI profilers book about how a lot of guilty people act. He hits almost all the markers.SA acted like an innocent person from day 1, yelling he was innocent and they where going to frame him.

 

[proudfootz]

@proudfootz
now i got it. you mean that colbourn saw, or was even physically there, at the RAV4, after rhemlow(?) made the call... but didn't give a damn. (cause the car is not at avery's..)

i always thought: weigert gave colbourn the description of the missing persons car, and colbourn has a habit of double-checking everything, hence he called dispatch... but he didn't say that specifically on the stand (colbourn) if i remember. he seemed completely uncomfortable.

As I understand it, Colburn's story is that he was checking with the dispatcher what he wrote down about Teresa's vehicle.

But the way the transcript of the actual recorded call reads, it appears to me the way he'd ask for information about a license plate he is looking at.

The reason it reads that way to me is that, if it were me trying to get information about Teresa's RAV, I'd simply ask the dispatcher something like 'What's the license plate on the missing girl's car?'

The witness's statement seems to me to support the supposition that Colburn was actually looking at the RAV.

All MOO.

 

[captnchuck67]

proudfootz,
that is how it sounded to me on the dispatch tape as well,he was looking at the plate and wanted to make sure . But dumb ole Andy instead of doing it in a way that could not be recorded just called it in.

 

[Karinna]

I said in another thread about RH,read any FBI profilers book about how a lot of guilty people act. He hits almost all the markers.SA acted like an innocent person from day 1, yelling he was innocent and they where going to frame him.

IMO, SA was very brave to go back to where he was living after his first wrongful conviction was overturned. Perhaps he should of seen the writing on the wall.
If it can happen once it can certainly happen again. And as i reiterate, i'm sure MC never thought it would be an issue for them until MAM 1 & 2 came out, and all the focus on this case now. It certainly makes me wonder what else they might have gotten away with over the years?

 

[captnchuck67]

I got a friend being released, he has been told while out on bond not to leave a certain area. Not to enter the city of Chicago or to even consume alcohol until his case is cleared. He has told me as soon as he can he is leaving the state and never returning,I told him it is a good idea.

 

[proudfootz]

In my opinion, Steven made the very natural mistake of underestimating the malice of criminally minded people. It seems most likely to me that it never entered his head that they'd pull the same thing on him a second time while the investigation into the previous case had everyone n the spotlight.

 

[captnchuck67]

The thing that galls me the most is the interrogation of BD,how can any legal expert look at that and let that stand? Those two investigators should have been out of jobs a long time ago.

 

[Karinna]

In my opinion, Steven made the very natural mistake of underestimating the malice of criminally minded people. It seems most likely to me that it never entered his head that they'd pull the same thing on him a second time while the investigation into the previous case had everyone n the spotlight.

Agree, he was too trusting. Perhaps he thought with it being such a big deal at the time and splashed all over the media, that they wouldn't be game to try again?
But there was that civil case to go through against certain people.
And i don't necessarily think it was all about the money either, but that certain people involved may very well have been criminally convicted themselves. JMO.