AMBER ALERT WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #23

[gngr~snap]

I don’t understand what the additional risk of another gunshot would be after the 911 call was made.

The cops are already on the way.

Killer has already killed 2 people.

What’s the additional risk of another shot?

To threaten Jayme, make her get in the car, fast?
Moo

 

[J Block]

I just wanted to touch on the “door covered in bullet holes”.


If a shotgun was used it could potentially explain the “covered in holes” statement, as well as being consistent w/ both the neighbors’ claims of # of shots, and the officer’s statement of “multiple(?)/several(?) spent rounds. Without looking back, I don’t remember if the exact verbiage was “rounds”, “shells”, “casings”. However, I don’t believe there’s definitive, 100% accuracy in term used vs. correct term. I say this because of known inconsistencies between what was transmitted over broadcast vs. what actually was determined to most likely have happened at the scene.


Fatal, violent, grotesque, etc. scenes can cause even a well-seasoned police to panic, react on emotion, get clouded judgement or observation, and straight-up make mistakes. A crime scene like this becomes exponentially more stressful knowing you need to clear the residence w/ the possibility of an armed subject still on location. [I originally had some concerns (and questions) regarding a few of the initial transmissions made from the first units on scene. However, for reasons stated above; and factoring the probability that these officers most likely were first car to only a handful of fatals or homicides (if any) - its not my place to judge or critique how they handled initial response.] Being a first responder is about as high-stress as it gets, and they never get easier. Nor should it. MOO.


Back to the “bullet holes”: The most commonly produced buckshot shell is a 12 gauge, 00 buck shell that holds 8 pellets. So dependent upon who made the observation, who passed or received the info, etc., (1) round of 00 buck fired into a door (from approx 10 yards or closer) may reveal 8 “holes”. That could certainly qualify as the appearance of a door being “covered w/ bullet holes”. From my experience, a shotgun is not only a more-commonly used firearm in the commission of a crime like a home invasion, but one of the most, if not THE most commonly owned firearm in the country. JMO

 

[Confusion]

Back to the “bullet holes”: The most commonly produced buckshot shell is a 12 gauge, 00 buck shell that holds 8 pellets. So dependent upon who made the observation, who passed or received the info, etc., (1) round of 00 buck fired into a door (from approx 10 yards or closer) may reveal 8 “holes”. That could certainly qualify as the appearance of a door being “covered w/ bullet holes”. From my experience, a shotgun is not only a more-commonly used firearm in the commission of a crime like a home invasion, but one of the most, if not THE most commonly owned firearm in the country. JMO

I know this is OT, but I just had to say how nice it was to see you call it 00 buck instead of double odd which too many people I know say. But, back on topic, I hadn't heard that the door was covered in bullet holes (I think someone said at one time that either James or both of them were riddled with bullet holes, but I believe that was discounted.) MOO

 

[J Block]

I know this is OT, but I just had to say how nice it was to see you call it 00 buck instead of double odd which too many people I know say. But, back on topic, I hadn't heard that the door was covered in bullet holes (I think someone said at one time that either James or both of them were riddled with bullet holes, but I believe that was discounted.) MOO

Thanks for the clarification.

Also, I’ve been pretty surgical w/ an 870 the past 30 some years.

 

[LotsaLatte]

I know this is OT, but I just had to say how nice it was to see you call it 00 buck instead of double odd which too many people I know say. But, back on topic, I hadn't heard that the door was covered in bullet holes (I think someone said at one time that either James or both of them were riddled with bullet holes, but I believe that was discounted.) MOO

I think people are saying "double aught" which is basically "double zero"
I can't believe Jayme hasn't been found yet I am baffled by this one.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

I just wanted to touch on the “door covered in bullet holes”.


If a shotgun was used it could potentially explain the “covered in holes” statement, as well as being consistent w/ both the neighbors’ claims of # of shots, and the officer’s statement of “multiple(?)/several(?) spent rounds. Without looking back, I don’t remember if the exact verbiage was “rounds”, “shells”, “casings”. However, I don’t believe there’s definitive, 100% accuracy in term used vs. correct term. I say this because of known inconsistencies between what was transmitted over broadcast vs. what actually was determined to most likely have happened at the scene.


Fatal, violent, grotesque, etc. scenes can cause even a well-seasoned police to panic, react on emotion, get clouded judgement or observation, and straight-up make mistakes. A crime scene like this becomes exponentially more stressful knowing you need to clear the residence w/ the possibility of an armed subject still on location. [I originally had some concerns (and questions) regarding a few of the initial transmissions made from the first units on scene. However, for reasons stated above; and factoring the probability that these officers most likely were first car to only a handful of fatals or homicides (if any) - its not my place to judge or critique how they handled initial response.] Being a first responder is about as high-stress as it gets, and they never get easier. Nor should it. MOO.


Back to the “bullet holes”: The most commonly produced buckshot shell is a 12 gauge, 00 buck shell that holds 8 pellets. So dependent upon who made the observation, who passed or received the info, etc., (1) round of 00 buck fired into a door (from approx 10 yards or closer) may reveal 8 “holes”. That could certainly qualify as the appearance of a door being “covered w/ bullet holes”. From my experience, a shotgun is not only a more-commonly used firearm in the commission of a crime like a home invasion, but one of the most, if not THE most commonly owned firearm in the country. JMO

If indeed the door "was riddled with bullet holes," as I posited it may have been in a post a day ago before this latest report came out, my expectation is that an AR-15 or similar semi-automatic rifle was used in the attack. Such a weapon would fit w/ the reported description of the early-responding LE officer of "one male down, multiple rounds spent.” And such a weapon, imo, would fit w/ the mentality of a perp who would commit a crime like this in such a fashion.

Link to report from which I quoted about the "multiple rounds": Dispatch Documents Reveal Details of Killing of Barron County Couple, Teen Girl's Disappearance

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Not sure tires on gravel are going to leave much of an impression... As for the rest of it, does it really matter to the assailants if somebody hears them pull in? They’re just going to kill them anyway.

Steep gravel driveway here. Unless it has been raining and it's muddy, our truck does not leave tracks.

And I agree with you on the second part of your post...if these assailants didn't care about the noise generated from kicking in a door and blasting off a gun, they certainly wouldn't have cared about how loudly they came up the driveway, imo. Let's face it, there was NOTHING subtle about this attack. It was a blitz.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I don’t understand what the additional risk of another gunshot would be after the 911 call was made.

The cops are already on the way.

Killer has already killed 2 people.

What’s the additional risk of another shot?

The fact that the cops were on the way and that the suspects would have no way of knowing how close to the home LE actually was. I just find it reasonable to assume that the perpetrator of this crime 1. didn't want to get caught, and 2. especially didn't want to get caught in the act of actually firing a gun and possibly having LE open fire on them.

Not saying that IS what happened, just saying I find it a reasonable scenario.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Interesting claim from the below article:

"DNA testing has been done on dozens of people as a process of elimination."

The implication of that claim is that LE has non-Closs family DNA sample(s) from the scene against which to compare suspect DNA and eliminate people. Not sure how true that is. Gotta take claims made by journalists with a grain of salt, especially ones made seemingly in passing without direct LE corroboration. But if it's valid, that's great news.

The only way to determine whether or not there is DNA from an unknown intruder would be to eliminate the DNA from known family members and see if there is DNA that doesn't match. So, it's reasonable to assume that this could have been an attempt to find foreign DNA.

JMO

 

[HayLouise]

Ashley Zilka‏Verified account @ashleyzilka

I’m headed to Barron County, WI where Jayme Closs vanished exactly a month ago. Her parents were found dead inside of their home. Today, people are encouraged to wear green to spread awareness about the teen and other missing children. Watch live reports starting at 6 on @KSTP

Ashley Zilka on Twitter

 

[DancingMuse]

The fact that the cops were on the way and that the suspects would have no way of knowing how close to the home LE actually was. I just find it reasonable to assume that the perpetrator of this crime 1. didn't want to get caught, and 2. especially didn't want to get caught in the act of actually firing a gun and possibly having LE open fire on them.

Not saying that IS what happened, just saying I find it a reasonable scenario.

Agreeing with you MountainKat; definitely a very reasonable scenario with motivaton.

*** Warning - Long article is linked ***

In this report about Home Invasions, with 4 case histories written up, I found some similarities to what happened to the Closs Family.

"Overwhelming force and violence" is one of them.

THREAT ASSESSMENT: Home Invasion Robberies

 

[SecretGarden]

Not sure tires on gravel are going to leave much of an impression... As for the rest of it, does it really matter to the assailants if somebody hears them pull in? They’re just going to kill them anyway.

Especially if multiple emergency vehicles show up to assess the scene and run over the tracks... but I’ll remain hopeful because I have to be at this point.

 

[SecretGarden]

I used to think that this was directly related to Jayme, but I feel less so inclined as time has gone by. If Jayme had been in contact with someoneone online, some sort of paper trail would exist. But after watching family interviews, they’re still at a loss for the reason as well.

A pedophile probably wouldn’t go through so much trouble and would be better at stalking the victims alone time habits, especially since her dad is of an intimidating stature. IMO... still not ruled out by me and more likely than the online bf theory.

But what I really feel is that this was very targeted against her parents, the goal was to kill them while they were both home, which was hard to plan because James worked so much. As someone else said, it was a blitz. It could’ve been very quick, and the criminal seemed confident in his ability and was still able to allude LE. I’m leaning towards the idea this isn’t his first rodeo, and there’s a possibility he could be a hired hitman.

Maybe it was against his professional grounds to kill a child? But maybe he has access to other black market criminals in selling one.

Moo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Definitely any DNA would be fast tracked in a case of this magnitude, and especially because there is a missing 13 year old, like you said.

DNA has been mentioned, but the nature of it not specified.

Good morning Jabarn...

It may have been fast tracked but that doesnt mean the results will be fast tracked back.

Every law enforcement department wants theirs to be put at the head of the line. But labs are greatly backlogged. I believe to be fair most labs now work on cases based on which case they receive first.

Of course it would be different if it was a national security matter and the killer unknown and still a danger to society overall.

The only cases I can remember of the top of my head where evidence was fast tracked and then the results were also fast tracked in a few days were two different mass murder cases. The 4 Gee family mass murders in Illinois and the 8 Heinz family mass murders in Georgia. The FBI were involved in those cases a well and did the evidence collection.

Fitzgerald said very recently they are waiting for the forensic results to come back.

That's why I said earlier I think the investigation is in a holding pattern for now and they're waiting for the forensics collected from the crime scene to be returned which has not occurred yet.

It may take another month or more before we see much movement on the case.

Hopefully some of the evidence sent in will yield the results they need that points them to the suspect.

Jmo

 

[Moonsie]

• I'm starting to think Jayme made the 911 call based on the fact that the phone was found "in another room”

It was made from Denise’s phone, so logic would suggest that Denise made the call. I do not think it was made after she was shot; if it was, it would have been found closer to her body. I believe she was in her bedroom, made the call to get the open line, and then dropped it as she ran to protect her daughter. That is why I believe the “commotion” in the background is heard at a distance.

moo.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Great thoughts about the shotgun J Block.

Except long guns of any kind whether some type of rifle or shotgun is the least likely weapon to be used of all firearms by all violent criminals overall from home invasions..robberies ....rapes or murders etc.

The overwhelming majority of violent criminals using firearms uses a semi automatic handgun.

Only around 150 criminals each year chose some type of long gun to commit their crimes.

Imo the reasons are because the handgun is just as deadly and lethal....it is much easier to conceal and carry....its not bulky and it's much harder for the victim to grab the weapon than it would be if they used a long gun which has a long protruding barrel. They also have rapid fire capacity without reloading.

I continue to believe a semi automatic handgun was used in these crime. They can do major damage to doors as well as victims. Multiple casings found makes me think it is a semi automatic handgun which automatically ejects the bullet casings as the bullets are being fired. Jmo

 

[Amandaaa]

I’ve been thinking about this over and over, and I’ve come up with only one scenario that actually makes sense to me - where all the facts would fit.

Maybe someone *thought* they were saving Jayme from something (not saying anything WAS actually going on - just that they thought it was).

It seems like a military-style hostage rescue... burst through the door in the middle of the night, when all 3 family members are likely to be home and asleep.

Kill both parents, take Jayme.


JMO

 

[Ragnarok]

Great thoughts about the shotgun J Block.

Except long guns of any kind whether some type of rifle or shotgun is the least likely weapon to be used of all firearms by all violent criminals overall from home invasions..robberies ....rapes or murders etc.

The overwhelming majority of violent criminals using firearms uses a semi automatic handgun.

Only around 150 criminals each year chose some type of long gun to commit their crimes.

Imo the reasons are because the handgun is just as deadly and lethal....it is much easier to conceal and carry....its not bulky and it's much harder for the victim to grab the weapon than it would be if they used a long gun which has a long protruding barrel. They also have rapid fire capacity without reloading.

I continue to believe a semi automatic handgun was used in these crime. They can do major damage to doors as well as victims. Multiple casings found makes me think it is a semi automatic handgun which ejects the bullet casings as the bullets are being fired. Jmo

ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls

 

[BlinkOfAnI]

Not sure tires on gravel are going to leave much of an impression... As for the rest of it, does it really matter to the assailants if somebody hears them pull in? They’re just going to kill them anyway.

I had to go back and look but I am seeing a dirt driveway. I know some people with driveways like this through some gravel in mud spots but I don't think it would make that much noise IF it were run over. Also, didn't it rain a little that night? I seen to remember muddy water puddles at the bottom of the drive. Your probably right that they would have been killed even if they were aware of a car. Unless they already had reason to be in fear of they probably would have just watched out the window trying to make out who it was. If the the person/s were seen and were unfamiliar, people still don't immediately go into panic mode. JMO

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls

So, rifles/shotguns were used in homicides at least 630 times in 2016, and prolly more than that, since there were over 3,000 homicides where the gun type was not stated. Approaching 2 homicides per day w/ rifles/shotguns. That's WAY less than the 7,100 homicides committed w/ handguns in 2016. Still, it's not an insignificant number -- comes out to be about 6% of all homicides committed w/ a firearm.