Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #9

[MistyWaters]

“Autopsies perfomed on the couple found "the cause of death for both deceased was ligature neck compression," or strangulation with an object such as a rope, police said.”
Billionaire pharma couple were strangled, case being treated as possible homicide, Toronto police say

Reference to the medical definition of “ligature neck compression” can be found in various places on the web. Regardless of what ligature was used, by definition death was not caused through body weight (by belts attached to railing).

BBM
Strangulation is defined as asphyxia by closure of the blood vessels and/ or air passages of the neck as a result of external pressure on the neck.[2] It is subdivided into three main categories: hanging, ligature strangulation and manual strangulation. The distinction between these three entities is attributed to the cause of the external pressure on the neck — either a constricting band tightened by the gravitational weight of the body or part of the body (hanging); a constricting band tightened by a force other than the body weight (ligature strangulation); or an external pressure by hands, forearms or other limbs (manual strangulation).
About strangulation and hanging: Language matters

 

[LadyL]

Here’s the new information: There are markings on the Shermans’ wrists, an indication that at some point their hands were tied together, though no rope or other ties were found near the bodies."

"The ligature neck compression, sources say, was likely done by two men’s leather belts found at the scene wrapped around the necks of the victims."

Sources say a working theory of the private team probing the deaths is that the Shermans were strangled by the belts, then the belts were attached to the railing, holding them in a seated position.

[sbm]

I would like to know more about those belts. What brand? What size? Was one of them Barry's belt and the other the killer's (or Honey's)?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

[sbm]

I would like to know more about those belts. What brand? What size? Was one of them Barry's belt and the other the killer's (or Honey's)?

Good questions, but other than them described as ‘leather belts’ officially by LE, we only have ‘sources’ (eg. Toronto Star sources) describing them as men’s leather belts, IIRC.

I think there was speculation that one belt was BS’s belt, but nothing confirmed by LE.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

[sbm]

I would like to know more about those belts. What brand? What size? Was one of them Barry's belt and the other the killer's (or Honey's)?

One belt was from BS' trousers .... Both were MEN'S belts .... I will search a link for you.
ETA:
Barry and Honey, spouses of more than 40 years, were side-by-side on the floor, their necks tied with men’s leather belts to a metal railing, about three-and-a-half-feet high, that ran around one end of the pool.
Their arms were drawn-back, held in place by coats pulled down below their shoulders. Both were facing away from the water and fully clothed, although one of the belts seemed to have been taken from Barry’s trousers. It was impossible to tell how long they’d been dead.
The unsolved murder of an unusual billionaire

 

[Deleted member 102539]

It was impossible to tell how long they’d been dead.

That I don't understand at all ...........

 

[Lexiintoronto]

That I don't understand at all ...........

Why?

 

[deugirtni]

“Autopsies perfomed on the couple found "the cause of death for both deceased was ligature neck compression," or strangulation with an object such as a rope, police said.”
Billionaire pharma couple were strangled, case being treated as possible homicide, Toronto police say

RSBM
Interesting that this linked article states the case 'being treated as possible homicide', wayyyyy back on December 18, 2017.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Why?

Pathology? Why wasn't the TOD detectable? The TV pathologists would have known.

 

[JDG]

Probably couldn't pin point it to more than a span of time as opposed to exact time.

Decomposition would have set in, warmish damp surroundings speeds up decomp. and everything would have been icky. Isn't that a medical term?

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Pathology? Why wasn't the TOD detectable? The TV pathologists would have known.

LE may be keeping that knowledge confidential, or maybe it had something to do with the temperature of the pool room?

 

[dotr]

Probably couldn't pin point it to more than a span of time as opposed to exact time.

Decomposition would have set in, warmish damp surroundings speeds up decomp. and everything would have been icky. Isn't that a medical term?

Had wondered if the perps expected everyone in the household would be away for the holidays and that there would not be a house showing for awhile?
If so, were they counting on the" perfume of death " to permeate the entire house until the bodies were located like some kind of twisted and vindictive prank?
imo, speculation.

 

[meanmaryjean]

When this case first broke- I could never have imagined it would go unsolved for a year.

Seriously

 

[JDG]

I can see it going two or more years, in part due to BS extremely complex business dealings that all have to be reviewed and checked out.

Many murders take more than one year to solve.

If they don't get the evidence correct, they'll never get a conviction.

This is a crime that needs a conviction or three. IMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Had wondered if the perps expected everyone in the household would be away for the holidays and that there would not be a house showing for awhile?
If so, were they counting on the" perfume of death " to permeate the entire house until the bodies were located like some kind of twisted and vindictive prank?
imo, speculation.

Maybe there’s no definite connection but I’ve always wondered about the timing of the murders as well. Dec 13th was a few days away from winter solstice when there’s the most hours of darkness (15 hrs dark, only 9 hrs daylight) and only 5 days away from Honey leaving for Florida, Dec 18th. Considering the pre-holiday season, its likely there were various social events the Shermans planned to attend or even host that upcoming weekend, Dec 15-17th. If the killer/s was aware of the housecleaning schedule, next due Dec 15th, the fateful evening of Dec 13th with light snow to cover entry and exit footprints imo represented a preplanned yet almost 11th hour opportunity to target both of them in their home. By mid January, it may have been sold.


“.....Looking forward to getting together in Florida. I am coming south Monday, December 18 [to]Friday, January 12," she wrote in an e-mail to friends last Monday.

"Barry is coming south for Monday December 25 & going home with me Jan. 12. Please let me know your dates south asap so i can place in my calendar … Looking forward to hearing back asap. Xoxo Honey."
Police reveal cause of death as friends and family of Barry and Honey Sherman reeling

 

[MistyWaters]

I can see it going two or more years, in part due to BS extremely complex business dealings that all have to be reviewed and checked out.

Many murders take more than one year to solve.

If they don't get the evidence correct, they'll never get a conviction.

This is a crime that needs a conviction or three. IMO

Yes many murders, even those where an ex-partner is the prime suspect from the very beginning, take more than a year before charges are laid. And because of Canada’s recent legal ruling that criminal trials must conclude within 30 month, LE is no longer afforded the opportunity to continue gathering additional evidence to strengthen a conviction long after just cause was initially proven.

Because of the complexity of business dealings, even if LE is focused on one or more prime suspects, I think there’s also a significant amount of investigative work happening to eliminate other potential suspects as well. Due diligence.... no surprises.

That warrants and subpoenas are still being issued is a positive indication LE is making progress IMO.

 

[JDG]

The deaths occurred during Hanukkah, the second night if on the 13th Dec.

Jewish people rarely commit suicide, it would be more unthinkable to suicide during Hanukkah.

I think that is yet another reason for the TPS to know that this was a double murder.

 

[MistyWaters]

RSBM
Interesting that this linked article states the case 'being treated as possible homicide', wayyyyy back on December 18, 2017.

That the Homicide Unit took over the investigation as soon as the preliminary autopsy findings indicated both died by ligature neck compression I think was also an indication there was proof of outside involvement.

BBM
“Toronto Police Service Homicide is comprised of a very dedicated group of men and women who are extremely committed to conducting quality investigations, ensuring that those responsible are held accountable for their actions in a court of law.”
Toronto Police Service :: To Serve and Protect

Earlier, when the media initially reported Honey incurred head injuries with “police sources” suggesting m/s, I think the preconceived expectation by the general public was Honey’s death was caused by head trauma, Barry’s was asphyxia by hanging (exactly as was Robin Williams death). But for neither of the Shermans, that wasn’t so. That’s when my opinion changed.

 

[Satchie]

Pathology? Why wasn't the TOD detectable? The TV pathologists would have known.

The article describes the scene as it was discovered by the real estate agent or housekeeper, IMO. When asked by the journalist, they would have no idea about TOD. The police likely have a time range, but police aren't talking to jounalists.

So often the media are making bricks without straw, I think we have to remember that.

 

[Satchie]

That the Homicide Unit took over the investigation as soon as the preliminary autopsy findings indicated both died by ligature neck compression I think was also an indication there was proof of outside involvement.

BBM
“Toronto Police Service Homicide is comprised of a very dedicated group of men and women who are extremely committed to conducting quality investigations, ensuring that those responsible are held accountable for their actions in a court of law.”
Toronto Police Service :: To Serve and Protect

Earlier, when the media initially reported Honey incurred head injuries with “police sources” suggesting m/s, I think the preconceived expectation by the general public was Honey’s death was caused by head trauma, Barry’s was asphyxia by hanging (exactly as was Robin Williams death). But for neither of the Shermans, that wasn’t so. That’s when my opinion changed.

I think they suspected right away that Honey's death was a homicide, so that would explain why they were immediately brought in.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think they suspected right away that Honey's death was a homicide, so that would explain why they were immediately brought in.

But that was sort of my point, the homicide team didn’t immediately take lead, not until the preliminary autopsy was concluded. There is no need for the homicide team to investigate a homicide when the suspect is also dead. As per my quote just above, they become involved when a homicide involves prosecution in a court of law. In Canada there’s no such thing as a post mortem conviction, probably nowhere else either.