MA MA - Molly Bish, 16, Warren, 27 Jun 2000

[dotr]

 

[somequestions]

The hunter on the 48 hours show that found Molly Bish's bathing suit on Whiskey Hill in Palmer, MA said something that I never considered in this case. He said that the reason he did not immediately notify the ex-cop about the bathing suit is because he thought it would be orange or red. And that makes perfect sense to me. Lifeguards usually wear red or orange swimsuits.

So when it comes to the suspect in the white car he could only have planned the crime that Monday June 26th. If he had surveilled Molly Bish earlier, what did he say to himself, "I am going to sit in the parking lot on Monday and stare down her mother."? And that means the white car had to be in the cemetery on Monday, June 26th to plan the crime too.

I have always looked at Molly Bish's case from the perspective of geographic profiling and Molly Bish being a lifeguard. The rest of us just show up to the beach. And like the lifeguard we usually wear something over our swimsuits. The point is that it is important to look at a case from different perspectives.

I never looked at Molly Bish's case from the perspective of her NOT being the lifeguard. I never looked at her case from the perspective of her not having a schedule.

 

[On The Books]

The hunter on the 48 hours show that found Molly Bish's bathing suit on Whiskey Hill in Palmer, MA said something that I never considered in this case. He said that the reason he did not immediately notify the ex-cop about the bathing suit is because he thought it would be orange or red. And that makes perfect sense to me. Lifeguards usually wear red or orange swimsuits.

So when it comes to the suspect in the white car he could only have planned the crime that Monday June 26th. If he had surveilled Molly Bish earlier, what did he say to himself, "I am going to sit in the parking lot on Monday and stare down her mother."? And that means the white car had to be in the cemetery on Monday, June 26th to plan the crime too.

I have always looked at Molly Bish's case from the perspective of geographic profiling and Molly Bish being a lifeguard. The rest of us just show up to the beach. And like the lifeguard we usually wear something over our swimsuits. The point is that it is important to look at a case from different perspectives.

I never looked at Molly Bish's case from the perspective of her NOT being the lifeguard. I never looked at her case from the perspective of her not having a schedule.

So you are saying that its possible that the murderer didn't know she was a lifeguard? He just happened to come to the beach and find her there? I wish you would explain that idea more of seeing her as not being the lifeguard...

I also agree that the white car murderer didn't plan to meet her in the parking lot, it was just a crossing of paths that could have led to he stalking her further that day from the woods. He didn't necessarily have to plan out bringing the car to the cemetery on the 26th because its likely that he was a local and already knew that path.

 

[On The Books]

I think you have proved why it is important to actually know information and not guess about it. With what you wrote about Mr. Bish it seems like you also introduced a good set of suspects too. But like so many things in this case I cannot imagine that police did not thoroughly check everyone out. On here you guess because you do not have all the same information as police.

I do not know what to write when it comes to theories because I know they are all based on my imagination.

Here was my main theory. I thought the person that killed her would have been someone she would have seen that day. If I were a police officer and I was first on the scene, I would have first followed up on the white car lead because you have to follow up on it and it is the best clue. But as time went on I would have developed a theory. My theory would have been the following.

So Mrs. Bish drops Molly Bish off and leaves. The sand truck driver leaves and parks his truck in a lot next to the cemetery. Then he walks through the cemetery and down to the beach to kidnap Molly Bish. In my mind, this would explain why all of Molly Bish's stuff was set up when she was kidnapped. He commits the crime and then leaves the body on Whiskey Hill. This would explain why no one remembers any vehicles parked on the road because she was killed and left on Whiskey Hill within the first few hours of her abduction. Now comes a point of contention. I always thought Molly Bish's body was buried in a shallow grave on Whiskey Hill. Others on here say that her body was left above ground on Whiskey Hill and deteriorated over the next 3 years. But in my mind, if her body was buried that would explain the person having a shovel handy since a lot of dump trucks have small shovels. And that is it. That is my theory.

I know that my theory is based on absolutely no evidence, no proof, and no knowledge of who the sand truck driver is. For all I know the sand truck driver is an old man with arthritis in his back which would definitely put a major dent in my theory. The point of my theory is not to accuse the sand truck driver, but to show how on here, Websleuths, there is always going to be that tendency to want to make what you feel is the evidence fit a conclusion. Obviously I have to guess this person was looked into by police.

The sad thing is that in both Molly Bish and Holly Piirainen's case the killer may have been identified and there simply is no way to go about proving it at this time. Rodney Stanger's brother drove a white car so in terms of the best clue, that would make sense that he may have had something to do with Molly Bish's murder.

All you can do is move from theory to theory to theory because there is nothing else. Hopefully someday there is some actual evidence that can help solve these cases. I agree that it is a good thing that I am not a police officer. I have been told I look too closely at small details. ​

According to a news article the truck driver was interviewed by police in 2000, and he failed a polygraph test, but police didn't ask him for DNA at the time. It was also noted that the truck driver's family was friendly with the Bish family. In 2003, the police sought to interview him again.

 

[On The Books]

There have been a number of men named as possibly being connected with the abduction and murder of Molly Bish. Their identities are scattered throughout this thread as well as elsewhere on the web. What follows is a list attempting to put them all in one place for easier reading.

1.) Rodney Stanger - Stanger is a convicted murderer currently serving a life sentence for killing his commonlaw wife Crystal Morrison in Florida, where he moved shortly after Molly's body was found. At the time of Molly's murder, Stanger was living in Southbridge, Massachusetts. He frequented a coffee shop that Molly visited before her death and bore a strong resemblance to the man seen by Magi Bish at Comins Pond. His younger brother, Randy, was known to drive a white car similar to the one Magi Bish saw at Comins Pond the day before Molly's disappearance. Further, Stanger was an avid sportsman, a hunter and fisherman who regularly fished at Comins Pond. His ex-wife has accused him of abusing their daughter and coming home from off-season "hunting trips" covered in blood. She also implicated Randy as an accomplice. (Interestingly, Randy Stanger was camping near where Holly Piirainen's body was found at the time of her murder.) Crime writer M. William Phelps has done extensive research into the Stanger brothers and believes they may be serial killers responsible not only for the Bish and Piirainen murders but also several disappearances of young girls in neighboring Tolland County, CT. A search of Crystal Morrison's trailer by her sister revealed a cache of girls hair elastics and, allegedly, a snuff film of a young blond woman being murdered with a chokehold.

2.) David Pouliot - Linked via forensics (police have never been forthcoming as to what this means) to the site where Holly Piirainen's body was recovered. He was also a hunter/fisherman and bore a resemblance to the composite sketch of the Comins Pond person-of-interest. He died in 2003 and not much else is known about him.

3.) Scott DeoJay - Much younger than the man described by Magi but he had a similar mustache and went on to abduct and kill a woman in Connecticut as well as commit several rapes. As far as I know, no one has connected him to Molly's murder.

4.) Robert Burno - Sex offender arrested in Brimfield for aggressively stalking a jogger and attempting to run her down with his car. Bore a superficial resemblance to the sketch, was a smoker (the POI at Comins Pond was observed smoking), and supposedly had an unregistered light sedan that he kept parked at his residence in 2000.

5.) Gerald Battistoni - Convicted rapist. Again, superficial resemblance to the sketch and may have had access to a vehicle similar to that of the POI at Comins Pond. However, he did not have an active driver's license in 2000 and his criminal history paints a picture of a man who groomed teenage girls and then sexually assaulted them. This is not the behavioral profile of the sort of killer who targeted Molly. Also to the detriment of Battistoni's candidacy is the prevalence of a conspiracy theory involving the police: namely, that his status as a confidential informant in the central MA drug trade led local cops to cover up his involvement in Molly's death. Given that the subsequent search for Molly's remains was the largest and most well-funded in the history of the commonwealth, this idea is patently absurd. He died of natural causes while serving a prison sentence for rape.

6.) Unnamed Camper - This lead is a more recent one and was given directly to the family itself. A man vacationing at a campground nearby left his party for a number of hours and returned covered in scratches, which he was unable to provide a reasonable explanation for. Later, he boasted of being a suspect in the Molly Bish murder while out drinking. His name has not been made public.

Also, these people were named during certain points of the investigation either by police or by the Bish family in interviews:


Oscar Baillargeon: local sex offender who had met Molly the month before she disappeared at a graduation party

John Regan: currently in jail for sexual assault and rape charges, attempted to kidnap a teenage girl in her high school parking lot. Was reported to police for trying to develop surveillance photos of blonde teen girls. His company did work in Warren, and he often visited sturbridge for business meetings

John Robert Allen: In 1998 was arrested for trying to kidnap a girl at a bus stop, and told her he was looking for a blonde 12 year old girl named Molly. He got out of jail, in 2000 a month before Molly's abduction. And was arrested again two months later.

 

[somequestions]

To answer the question about my previous post, I never looked at Molly Bish's case from the perspective of the previous 3 years.

If you go to Commins Pond and for the last 3 years the lifeguard has been a guy named John, and then you go to Commins Pond and John is not there, do you automatically assume there is a new lifeguard? So what might you assume with some certainty about the individual that kidnapped Molly Bish when it comes to their knowledge of Commins Pond: That person has to be new to Commins Pond. So the white car guy fits this profile.

If you go to a coffee shop and the people that work at the coffee shop see you every single day or just about what do people think? Lets say you skip going to the coffee shop for a week. Do people think you stopped going to the coffee shop because they are that observant or if you stop by later after a week do they simply assume they did not see you and that you have been at the coffee shop or served by another employee, etc during that time? It has to do with time. Remember just a week. But at least a week has passed before the kidnapping happened and someone on here could potentially argue that a week is long enough to realize that indeed, there is a NEW lifeguard. And the old one is gone. But if she was wearing red or orange they might realize that even earlier. Hence what the hunter on 48 hours made me realize.

As for geographic profiling, another poster who is a criminal profiler wrote that spatially where the victim is killed is often very close to where the body is left. Now maybe he only meant that for stranger abductions that were opportunity crimes. I don't know. But in the book I read about geographic profiling, if someone plans a kidnapping, the general conclusion that I took away from the book was that the criminal takes the victim to their home.

As for who murdered Molly Bish that could be anyone. I have thought maybe it was the garbage guy since he would be close enough to her to see that she has a first aid kit, whistle, or watched her lifeguard to come to the conclusion that she must be the NEW lifeguard. Or it could be someone who walked down previously that week from the cemetery area. Basically anyone who would have thought she would be alone that day or saw her alone that day like the sand truck driver. But if others that knew the Bish family already knew that Molly would be the new lifeguard at Commins Pond, it could be one of them too. I thought maybe a firefighter might have kidnapped her since they are trained to carry people. I could literally make arguments for every suspect. And I think I have.

I like to try to do my best to look at the evidence, but about the only thing we are relatively certain about is that the killer possibly took her up a hill at Commins Pond to the cemetery and that her body was found up a hill at Whiskey Hill. The dogs tell us this, and I think the dogs are right. It is too bad the dogs did not get to sniff each one of the suspects.

And that in summary is what the problem is with Molly Bish's case. Like her father said on the Disappeared program, too many suspects.

 

[On The Books]

Interesting Yes I agree that the white car suspect profile would be someone who accidentally discovered Molly and then planned the crime that day. I think the geographic profiling book you read is correct, if someone plans the crime they will probably bring the victim to their 'safe place'... but Molly's remains didn't get discovered until the summer of 2003, three years later. If she had been brought to Whiskey Hill in the Summer of June 2000 then her burial probably would have been uncovered and discovered much earlier, like after the thaw of winter 2001.

I also think that its possible that the white car suspect is a red herring. It could have just been some creepy fisherman who stared back at Molly's mother, but had nothing to do with her kidnapping and murder. This could be leading to not finding the murderer in nearly 20 years, because they are searching for the wrong thing.

The dogs traced her up the trail to the cemetery. It makes sense that that was the getaway... even though that trail is long and would take 30 plus minutes to walk. Not a fast way. At the same time, its possible that Molly had been up in those woods before, and her scent there has nothing to do with June 27th. Her boyfriend lived right next to Comins Pond so its possible that they hung out in those woods. Its a possibility.

Ive been searching for that 48 hrs episode online but I cant find it... do you have any links?

 

[Crazyjster]

It might be on YouTube...many of the mainstream television shows on it I remember seeing a few way back when she was still missing actually made the news I don't remember at this point. It was interesting though I was watching a show couple weeks ago I'm about two boys that had gone missing and they found the abductor and they were showing a sketch and the guy was a dead ringer for the Molly Bish sketch it was creepy I looked at the picture and I was like holy crap it looks like the guy the sketch that was all over the news for years in the fish case. I think this is a missing boy look it up but the guy had also been arrested for murder in other states of teenage girls which I thought was interesting. Remember why he was let go I actually I should look it up and I don't remember the years and I don't some reason I didn't think they'd years course bonded which is why I kind of put in the back of my mind but it was similar it was a man in the woods picking up kids and taking them to a secluded area. now that I think about it it might just very similarly to this case and it was a stranger in who is living in the area at the time but not necessarily from the area from the as we would think of it, that was familiar enough with the area to pull this sort of thing off. So I would go with the guy in the white car but but I don't necessarily believe it's the person who's currently incarcerated and has been named the most likely suspect. actually we'll look up the case and see if you guys can look at that picture of the guy who was arrested it's creepy at least for me it was creepy I mean that weekend that she went missing was our weekend I won't forget for many reasons but I worked girls kids her age I was dealing with a similar situation that weekend in another part of the state and I just remember thinking this girl is not a runaway...

 

[On The Books]

Thats interesting! You'll have to look up what case that is.

I haven't been able to find the 48 hrs episode on youtube

 

[somequestions]

Interesting Yes I agree that the white car suspect profile would be someone who accidentally discovered Molly and then planned the crime that day. I think the geographic profiling book you read is correct, if someone plans the crime they will probably bring the victim to their 'safe place'... but Molly's remains didn't get discovered until the summer of 2003, three years later. If she had been brought to Whiskey Hill in the Summer of June 2000 then her burial probably would have been uncovered and discovered much earlier, like after the thaw of winter 2001.

I also think that its possible that the white car suspect is a red herring. It could have just been some creepy fisherman who stared back at Molly's mother, but had nothing to do with her kidnapping and murder. This could be leading to not finding the murderer in nearly 20 years, because they are searching for the wrong thing.

The dogs traced her up the trail to the cemetery. It makes sense that that was the getaway... even though that trail is long and would take 30 plus minutes to walk. Not a fast way. At the same time, its possible that Molly had been up in those woods before, and her scent there has nothing to do with June 27th. Her boyfriend lived right next to Comins Pond so its possible that they hung out in those woods. Its a possibility.

Ive been searching for that 48 hrs episode online but I cant find it... do you have any links?

If you type in Molly Bish into a YouTube search, it should be the 4th video down. It is called Real Crime Missing Molly, but for some reason is under a description for a Molly Martens.

P.S. There is also a Watchjojo video done this year about Molly Bish's case a few videos below the 48 hours one.

 

[On The Books]

If you type in Molly Bish into a YouTube search, it should be the 4th video down. It is called Real Crime Missing Molly, but for some reason is under a description for a Molly Martens.

P.S. There is also a Watchjojo video done this year about Molly Bish's case a few videos below the 48 hours one.

Wow got it! thank you so much. I'm going to watch that now. There was also a Haunting Evidence episode on Molly's case with psychics involved and I was curious about that one but haven't been able to track it down

 

[somequestions]

Some other media information:

There was a program called Dark Minds that did an episode called "Blond, Blue-eyed, and Gone". You can easily find this on YouTube under a search for Molly Bish. Molly Bish's case is not discussed until about halfway through, right after the discussion of Holly Piirainen.

There was a young reporter named Robert Way who did a 2 part interview with Maggie Bish, Molly's mom. This is easy to find on YouTube as well.

As for Haunting Evidence episode, I have not been able to find that on YouTube. I do remember the episode because I mistakenly thought that the "crime scene pictures" they showed at the beginning of Molly Bish's stuff was the actual crime scene pictures from the kidnapping out at Commins Pond Beach. I think maybe the 48 hours episode is the actual kidnapping crime scene photos but I don't know. I was very interested in what the first aid kit looked like to see what it consisted of and if anything looked unusual. I thought maybe Molly Bish might have had some sneezing out at the beach and I wanted to see if she had tissues in her first aid kit.

To summarize the Haunting Evidence episode, basically the psychics believed Molly's abductor/murderer was someone who surveilled her for quite a while, at least a week. I remember the psychics believing he was very detail oriented and may work in a hospital. They also said he would always write things down in a notebook when he was taking notes about Molly Bish's routine.

I have never seen the Unsolved Mysteries episode about Molly Bish's case. I did not start looking at Molly Bish's case for a long time so that is probably why I never saw Unsolved Mysteries. Even the 48 hours episode looks to have been filmed way back in 2003, yet I just saw it this year on YouTube.

 

[On The Books]

Thank you for this info! I contacted the people on haunting evidence and they told me they had a no distribution deal on their contract and they don't want people watching I wonder if its to protect them, just in case if they are wrong when they find Molly's murderer.
But thank you on this info on the episode!
the 48 hrs one was actually really good. It seemed like the real crime scene photo! one shoe infront of the chair and one on the left side of the chair with the bottle of water on it? I agree I wish there were photos of the first aid kit. I don't see a first aid kit... was it in another spot behind the chair?

The strange thing was this page The Mysterious Murder of Molly Bish - Unsolved Mysteries has a photo and the set up looks different.
Mark Holly, who was Molly's boyfriends step brother, who lived with him nearby commented in a newspaper at the time how he thought the crime scene looked strange how all her things were stacked up, and she usually put her shoes under her seat. maybe she literally just put her stuff down when the killer came.


I think the unsolved mysteries one came out pretty soon after it happened so maybe it doesn't have alot of info, it was just to get the word out about her disappearance.

 

[On The Books]

Does anyone know where Tim McGuigan is or how to get in touch with him. He was the ex-cop who found her bathing suit and was supposed to be writing a book about Holly.
I can't find any current info on him, just that recently he took the DA to court, and lost, because he thought he deserved some of the reward money that was being offered at the time.
Any way to find him?

 

[somequestions]

Does anyone know where Tim McGuigan is or how to get in touch with him. He was the ex-cop who found her bathing suit and was supposed to be writing a book about Holly.
I can't find any current info on him, just that recently he took the DA to court, and lost, because he thought he deserved some of the reward money that was being offered at the time.
Any way to find him?

I know is there was a poster on here named J Kelly who I think may be the same guy that works with the author on the Dark Minds program. He is a criminal profiler. He also was on 48 hours. I would think he might know. I try not to contact people about murder cases especially family members, although I did email Molly Bish's mother I don't know how many years ago. She responded to my questions although I know she and the police probably get a lot of people who have theories about what happened to Molly Bish when they are really looking for information. I wrote an earlier post about her response to my questions.

About the only thing I have been able to deduce from all the media around Molly Bish's case is that maybeeee Molly Bish's favorite color is blue? But I am not going to write another long diatribe about that because it does not really matter when it comes to solving her case.

 

[On The Books]

Thanks! I'll try to contact J Kelly to see if he knows. I'm writing an article on McGuigan so I'd like to possibly ask him some questions.

 

[somequestions]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but I wondered how the first witness that arrived at Commins Pond Beach that day(Woodworth) knew the lifeguard's stuff was there, but she was not? Maybe she knows the Bish family and knows that Molly Bish is the lifeguard at Commins Pond or maybe she was there earlier in the week and had observed Molly lifeguarding, or maybe she assumed based on some item Molly Bish brought with her to the beach that day? This particular day that Molly Bish disappeared was supposed to be a children's swimming lesson day with other mothers at the beach.

About the only thing I take away from the kidnapping crime scene is the first aid kit being open. The one assumption you might be able to make from that fact is that Molly Bish's kidnapping happened almost immediately after she opened the first aid kit. I think that because the first aid kit was not closed. If you have young kids coming to the beach, the lifeguard would usually close the first aid kit for the reason that it would pose a safety hazard to small children who might mess around with the items inside.

So the fact that Molly Bish's boss closed the first aid kit is not that unusual. When police asked him that question he probably told them it was to keep small children out of it.

 

[On The Books]

Im sure the woman who came to the beach first knew the Bish family. Warren is a small town like that and it was Molly and her brother John who were lifeguarding that summer. I remember hearing that that day she was actually covering John's shift. So she knew that it was the lifeguard's stuff, but probably assumed that John or Molly weren't there for some innocent reason.

Many think that the murderer asked her for a band aid to distract her while he took her hostage. Ted Bundy would often do this, with a fake cast and crutches fake an injury and ask a woman for help before abducting her.
The other possibility is that molly was doing an inventory of her first aid kit when she first arrived. That is the protocol for lifeguards as they start a shift, and she was just recently trained, so its possible she was following this protocol when the murderer took her hostage.

Some people think that the boss Ed Fett was suspicious. He failed the polygraph (along with 10 other people) and waited a long time and messed up the crime scene before getting the police involved. He was the new Parks Comissioner at the time, and as far as I know he still hold that position.

 

[somequestions]

I am still confused by a lot of the information in Molly Bish's case. I always thought Molly Bish was taking over for her brother John at the Commins Pond beach area and that she had been trained previously by him and was now on her 8th day(I think) alone lifeguarding the beach. This is what the television shows made me think.

Until someone can figure out whether Molly Bish was kidnapped by a stranger or by someone who knew her it is going to be very difficult to solve this case. If indeed it was someone that knew Molly Bish I think you can come up with two assumptions that are not set in stone, but that I would work from:

1. Molly Bish was probably not killed during the day. The reason I think that is because if the person knew her, they would have to assume that once she was reported missing the Bish family or police might call to ask if they have seen Molly.

2. If the crime was planned in such a way by someone who knew Molly Bish, they would likely have someplace to put her, whether a small getaway building or a place within their home. The reason I think that is because if the person has a wife or kids it is going to be more difficult to hide the kidnapping victim. So when examining suspects, talking to their wife or kids about where they were between June 27-July 4, 2000(a week) is probably going to be important. But if the person is single that probably is not going to matter.

The parks commissioner is an obvious suspect although in the tv programs I was confused about something. According to the witness that first arrived at the pond, she said she arrived about 20 minutes after Molly's mom had dropped Molly off. So that puts it around 10:20am. Then according to 48 hours program, an hour passed and Molly's boss showed up(11:20 am) and noticed the lifeguard was not there. He waited around and eventually called police using the 2 way radio. This according to the Disappeared program was at 11:44am. Yet later on the in the same Disappeared episode Molly's brother John said he ran into the parks commissioner and he did not mention Molly Bish was missing. The program later says his running into Molly's brother gives him his alibi and they moved on to other suspects. So my question is what time did the parks commissioner run into Molly's brother at the hardware store? Was it after he called police?

If the parks commissioner committed the crime it would have to be a very elaborate plan although there is one other reason a person would use St. Paul's cemetery to access the beach. The reason is they would not want to be seen arriving to work. This way they can kidnap the victim, take them home and put them somewhere, then go back and "arrive" at work to find out the lifeguard is missing while hoping that someone other than themselves has to call police. Everything would have to have been thought out ahead of time, right down to the color of the swimsuit. And as most police officers would tell you, that is television, not real life.

But if it was the parks commissioner why are Molly Bish's sandals on the beach? Couldn't he just coax her close to his car with some excuse? She would trust him. So again it does not make sense.

And everything I wrote above, except for the swimsuit color could have been thought out by a stranger who planned the crime in advance. Maybe Rodney Stanger saw Molly Bish earlier, then set up some place to take her, and put his plan into motion using the cemetery as cover to kidnap Molly?

Was Molly Bish kidnapped by a stranger or by someone she knew? If this were June 2000 the white car theory would be my top choice. I don't know if I think the same thing today although that individual in the white car has not come forward to say they were not involved. So sadly after over 18 1/2 years we are still left trying to answer that same question.

 

[Psykotc]

I will be very interested in this 48 Hours episode. I can't make the link work anymore, but I posted several weeks ago with a link to The Boston Channel story about the hunter who originally found pieces of Molly's swimming suit, which led to the discovery of her body. THE SAME HUNTER WAS SHOWING THE CREW FROM 48 HOURS WHERE HE ORIGINALLY FOUND THE PIECES OF HER SWIMSUIT AND LO AND BEHOLD, HE FOUND MORE PIECES OF HER SWIMSUIT (while the 48 Hours crew was taping I think). Some people say well, the police just didn't do a very good job of searching the area, and that it is possible. It just seems too coincidental to me that the same person would find additional pieces of her swimsuit with a TV crew taping the whole thing. The article stated that the DA had subpeonaed the tape from 48 Hours. Very interesting.

Just my opinion...

I agree with it being interesting and I don't really buy the whole coincidence thing.