Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #10

[Lexiintoronto]

"Investigators have found no security cameras inside or outside the home."
Retired Toronto detective hired to ensure 'no stone left unturned' in Sherman deaths investigation | CBC News

There were definitely no cameras. Frank magazine said there was a security system but Barry didn't use it.

What Greenspin (not a typo) said was that Toronto police had not initially "examined the locks" which later revealed 'the point of entry' into the home. Who knows what he means, could simply mean a door or window was left unlocked, as far as I can tell.

See 14:50 at

The Business Week Bloomberg article said there was one camera in the pool room, but it wasn’t turned on.

 

[MistyWaters]

<snipped to reply>

What Greenspan (Spelling corrected; name variations now allowed) said was that Toronto police had not initially "examined the locks" which later revealed 'the point of entry' into the home. Who knows what he means, could simply mean a door or window was left unlocked, as far as I can tell.

See 14:50 at

The manner of bantering including Police Chief Saunders almost immediate response to qualify Greenspan’s harsh criticism as merely his “opinion” and so that was the end of it....I don’t know but it sure reminds me a little too much of a mutually prescripted scenario.

“Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders was quick to defend his officers’ work, saying Greenspan did not have all the information detectives have uncovered to date.

“If you have an opinion on it, you’re entitled to that opinion,” Saunders said of Greenspan’s criticism. “We don’t deal with opinions, we deal with facts.”...”
Frustrated Sherman family offers $10M reward for help solving killings of billionaire couple

******
I watched Greenspan’s press conference again wondering What If one or more potential witnesses were prepared to provide a statement but were reluctant to do so, in fear for their life? What if people close to the suspect with incriminating information, maybe even proof of a false alibi, are frightened for their own lives at the thought of testifying against the accused given there can never be any assurance of a conviction or if convicted, the killer/s would be locked away for the rest of their life. Even though the Sherman family is wealthy, they can’t protect witnesses otherwise they’d face accusations of bribery.

So in the above scenario, if Greenspan and his team were working closely with TPS, what would’ve been the lead up, the reason, for offering the reward? I can’t think of any other way than to offer it based on Greenspan’s “opinion” that the reward was required because TPS had done a shoddy job, to rev up the investigating somehow.

Another thing, a good portion of Greenspan’s reasoning for the reward was related to the PI’s investigation of the home that began after the TPS press conference way back last Jan/18. Why did the family just suddenly decide there might be value in offering a reward so many months later, in October? If indeed it’s Greenspan’s opinion that TPS processed the crime scene so poorly that they found no valuable evidence at the crime scene during those first six weeks, even the best of witnesses is unlikely to result in a prosecution.

 

[dotr]

After a Billionaire and His Wife Are Found Dead, Their Children Try to Crack the Case
By
Jacquie McNish and
Vipal Monga
June 29, 2018

"The Sherman home wasn’t gated, and its only security camera, located in the indoor swimming pool room, was broken."
"Corrections & Amplifications
The Toronto home of Barry and Honey Sherman had one security camera, located in the indoor swimming pool room, and it was broken. An earlier version of this article, incorrectly stated the house had external security cameras. (July 4, 2018)"

 

[Satchie]

The Business Week Bloomberg article said there was one camera in the pool room, but it wasn’t turned on.

Yes, I recall. Rather peculiar for that to be the only camera in or outside the house: it's the least likely location to spot burglars. It seems an extremely risky substitute for having an adult poolside supervising kids swimming, etc but that's the only reason I can think of for it being there: installed when the kids were having teen friends over.

I wonder whether it looked like it might be functioning.

I have this image of the whole double homicide being staged by masked men for the camera, that wasn't actually recording anything.

 

[MistyWaters]

After a Billionaire and His Wife Are Found Dead, Their Children Try to Crack the Case
By
Jacquie McNish and
Vipal Monga
June 29, 2018

"The Sherman home wasn’t gated, and its only security camera, located in the indoor swimming pool room, was broken."
"Corrections & Amplifications
The Toronto home of Barry and Honey Sherman had one security camera, located in the indoor swimming pool room, and it was broken. An earlier version of this article, incorrectly stated the house had external security cameras. (July 4, 2018)"

Quite a bit of contradictory reports and lack of named sources, that’s for sure.

“Although there have been some media reports about evidence, police have yet to confirm any specifics beyond cause of death. However, CBC News has learned that the Shermans were found by the pool in their basement and that investigators have found no security cameras inside or outside the home...”
'Everything in this case raises an eyebrow': What we know, and don't know, about the Sherman investigation | CBC News

 

[Satchie]

The manner of bantering including Police Chief Saunders almost immediate response to qualify Greenspan’s harsh criticism as merely his “opinion” and so that was the end of it....I don’t know but it sure reminds me a little too much of a mutually prescripted scenario.

“Toronto Police Chief Mark Saunders was quick to defend his officers’ work, saying Greenspan did not have all the information detectives have uncovered to date.

“If you have an opinion on it, you’re entitled to that opinion,” Saunders said of Greenspan’s criticism. “We don’t deal with opinions, we deal with facts.”...”
Frustrated Sherman family offers $10M reward for help solving killings of billionaire couple

******
I watched Greenspan’s press conference again wondering What If one or more potential witnesses were prepared to provide a statement but were reluctant to do so, in fear for their life? What if people close to the suspect with incriminating information, maybe even proof of a false alibi, are frightened for their own lives at the thought of testifying against the accused given there can never be any assurance of a conviction or if convicted, the killer/s would be locked away for the rest of their life. Even though the Sherman family is wealthy, they can’t protect witnesses otherwise they’d face accusations of bribery.

So in the above scenario, if Greenspan and his team were working closely with TPS, what would’ve been the lead up, the reason, for offering the reward? I can’t think of any other way than to offer it based on Greenspan’s “opinion” that the reward was required because TPS had done a shoddy job, to rev up the investigating somehow.

Another thing, a good portion of Greenspan’s reasoning for the reward was related to the PI’s investigation of the home that began after the TPS press conference way back last Jan/18. Why did the family just suddenly decide there might be value in offering a reward so many months later, in October? If indeed it’s Greenspan’s opinion that TPS processed the crime scene so poorly that they found no valuable evidence at the crime scene during those first six weeks, even the best of witnesses is unlikely to result in a prosecution.

I think Greenspan (Spelling corrected. Admin Note: Do not use name variations or derogatory terms) is trying to satisfy his clients, the Sherman children. They probably have some very strong opinions about the deaths, TPS, the press, the lack of arrests. His job is to find a way to translate their feelings into public statements and actions they can fund.

I think his critique of TPS is really just expressing the family's distrust of TPS. They continued to be outraged that M-S was ever considered a possibility, much less implied to the media. I think they consider TPS to be mickey mouse, and wish they could bring in the FBI, or something.

I expect the idea for a reward came from the children, rather than Greenspun. He's never actually solved a homicide in his life, he's a criminal defense lawyer with expertise in trial law. For example, he negotiated a plea deal for Dellen Millard's girlfriend Christina Noudga.

I imagine TPS think it's pretty funny he's trying to tell them how to do their jobs.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think Greenspan (Spelling corrected. Admin Note: Do not use name variations or derogatory terms) is trying to satisfy his clients, the Sherman children. They probably have some very strong opinions about the deaths, TPS, the press, the lack of arrests. His job is to find a way to translate their feelings into public statements and actions they can fund.

I think his critique of TPS is really just expressing the family's distrust of TPS. They continued to be outraged that M-S was ever considered a possibility, much less implied to the media. I think they consider TPS to be mickey mouse, and wish they could bring in the FBI, or something.

I expect the idea for a reward came from the children, rather than Greenspun. He's never actually solved a homicide in his life, he's a criminal defense lawyer with expertise in trial law. For example, he negotiated a plea deal for Dellen Millard's girlfriend Christina Noudga.

I imagine TPS think it's pretty funny he's trying to tell them how to do their jobs.

I’m not so sure. This is a unusual case mainly because in the past year LE have revealed absolutely nothing, other than the cause of death and a homicide investigation is ongoing. Because of that, even here - as if time has stood still - frequently discussions revolve back to the first weeks even before LE announced the deaths had been deemed a targeted double homicide.

But for those who are directly involved in this case, the PI team, the family, no way can we assume they know absolutely nothing more than us. It’s always that family and others close to their parents can be the best source of information for LE, including naming of possible suspects. That their focus would be still dwelling on those first weeks, the same as us who are reliant on the media to glean information...no I just can’t believe that.

Greenspan knows full well neither the media nor the general public has access to any information aside from the early controversy already in the realm of the media so to recycle it once again can also serve a convenient and justifiable purpose IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Below is a very good example of media sensationalism. We are to believe Greenspan is angry at police, they’re threatening to get a production order (as if that’s a horrible thing) if he doesn’t turn over evidence? As a reporter involved in criminal cases, Donovan has to know better than this. But to give him credit, maybe he was working this source for other, more important information related to this case.

“......On Oct. 11, Hutchison wrote to Greenspan and warned him that if he did not turn over everything his team had, police would go before a judge to seek a production order, angering Greenspan, sources say.....

.....Immediately after the press conference, Greenspan directed his team to hand over any physical items they had collected to the police, sources close to the private team say.

Neither Hutchison nor Toronto police responded to requests for interviews for this story.....”
Sherman family investigators hand over earring and other evidence collected at murdered billionaires’ home to Toronto police | The Star

****
Donovan has to be aware of the legal significance of “chain of custody”. Because in another report he even notes TPS required production orders to access their own storage locker and get medical reports from the Coroner’s office. Greenspan, a defence attorney, most certainly is aware evidence cannot just be “handed over” because otherwise it’d useless in court proceedings. A production order is merely the legal means for evidence to be “handed over” or obtained in order to legally prove where it originated from and who had access to it.

 

[William_60]

Greetings everyone; I just signed on. Green as can be.

Thank You for all of the great contributions to what is obviously a highly-intriguing crime starving for more basic facts.

Spent the day reading parts of the first two threads and this third thread in its entirety.

A fine way to shed work stress and shift gears.

A couple of things: Are there timelines, however approximate of the times Honey and Barry arrived at Old Colony? (I expect not).

Second, and I consider it my major takeaway from today, was the ex-cop/now University professor's assertion that the murders were not conducted by professionals. A compact crime scene, but not professionally done.

Third, the theory put forth by a regular contributor here that the M-S theory was floated by LE to provide a false sense of security to the perps might have indeed been a motive, but...Barry's crossed-legs, the staging conducted post-mortem, would seem to rule this out. The killers know what they did, and how they left things.

I can't believe they'd breathe any sighs of relief with that early, hasty and all too public statement.

Looking forward to reading and trying to contribute.

 

[andreww]

I think Greenspan (Spelling corrected. Admin Note: Do not use name variations or derogatory terms) is trying to satisfy his clients, the Sherman children. They probably have some very strong opinions about the deaths, TPS, the press, the lack of arrests. His job is to find a way to translate their feelings into public statements and actions they can fund.

I think his critique of TPS is really just expressing the family's distrust of TPS. They continued to be outraged that M-S was ever considered a possibility, much less implied to the media. I think they consider TPS to be mickey mouse, and wish they could bring in the FBI, or something.

I expect the idea for a reward came from the children, rather than Greenspun. He's never actually solved a homicide in his life, he's a criminal defense lawyer with expertise in trial law. For example, he negotiated a plea deal for Dellen Millard's girlfriend Christina Noudga.

I imagine TPS think it's pretty funny he's trying to tell them how to do their jobs.

Greenspan (Admin note: Spelling corrected re name variation) is doing exactly what the family wanted him to do, discredit the notion of murder/suicide and convince TPS to do the same.

Mission accomplished.

What they are doing now is compiling a list of ways that TPS may have erred, and evidence that they overlooked. I believe they are doing this just in case TPS attempts to re-evaluate the case or change their minds about what happened. With Gomes and Price off the case, there is always the possibility that someone new will be assigned to it who wouldn't agree with Gomes' conclusions.

The reward?

Simply put, if the family believes this was murder suicide, they really don't have to worry about paying out the reward do they? What it does do is bring in thousands of tips, possibly from around the world. In the event of TPS trying to change their position on this being a double murder, Greenspan's first question would be "did you follow up on those thousands of tips we sent you?".

Greenspan is well aware that this case will not be fought in court, it will be a case of public opinion, fought in the media. Greenspan is simply loading up on artillery in preparation of a future battle. The beauty of the reward is it gives the family the appearance of being engaged, it over-burdens TPS who admittedly only have one persons working the case, it furthers their narrative in the media, and it stocks them with ammunition for future battles, without ever having to pay a dime. Genius, Greenspan should acknowledge that it was John Ramsey & Co. that came up with that strategy decades ago.

 

[MistyWaters]

Greetings everyone; I just signed on. Green as can be.

Thank You for all of the great contributions to what is obviously a highly-intriguing crime starving for more basic facts.

Spent the day reading parts of the first two threads and this third thread in its entirety.

A fine way to shed work stress and shift gears.

A couple of things: Are there timelines, however approximate of the times Honey and Barry arrived at Old Colony? (I expect not).

Second, and I consider it my major takeaway from today, was the ex-cop/now University professor's assertion that the murders were not conducted by professionals. A compact crime scene, but not professionally done.

Third, the theory put forth by a regular contributor here that the M-S theory was floated by LE to provide a false sense of security to the perps might have indeed been a motive, but...Barry's crossed-legs, the staging conducted post-mortem, would seem to rule this out. The killers know what they did, and how they left things.

I can't believe they'd breathe any sighs of relief with that early, hasty and all too public statement.

Looking forward to reading and trying to contribute.

Welcome to the thread!

LE has never stated what time each of the Shermans arrived back to their home.

Various possibilities for the early m/s media rumours have been discussed over the past. The ambiguity raised reminds me of a pre-criminal trial argument if/when an arrest is made, but only if one chooses to ignore indications the bodies were staged postmortem. What are your thoughts?

 

[William_60]

Welcome to the thread!

LE has never stated what time each of the Shermans arrived back to their home.

Various possibilities for the early m/s media rumours have been discussed over the past. The ambiguity raised reminds me of a pre-criminal trial argument if/when an arrest is made, but only if one chooses to ignore indications the bodies were staged postmortem. What are your thoughts?

Well, Andreww has consistently raised compelling arguments pointing to M-S, so I can't move on from that scenario entirely.

One aspect he raised was The Sherman Legacy and a collective willingness by prominent people to protect it by eliminating M-S from the equation.

Personally, I don't doubt there could be the will to do it. On the other hand it is unclear what, if any damage a M-S verdict could do, going forward.

I think much would depend on the response and actions of survivors; their strength, resolve and their vision and communication of it.

The bodies were staged...

If this is not 100 per cent fact, it turns the
M-M scenario upside down, IMO.

 

[William_60]

Welcome to the thread!

LE has never stated what time each of the Shermans arrived back to their home.

Various possibilities for the early m/s media rumours have been discussed over the past. The ambiguity raised reminds me of a pre-criminal trial argument if/when an arrest is made, but only if one chooses to ignore indications the bodies were staged postmortem. What are your thoughts?

And Thank You, and others, for the warm welcome.

Hope a breakthrough is made/announced not just in this case, but the Staikos case and the Woodbridge double homicide as well. Sadly, there are still others.

SMH.

 

[Sphinx]

I'm not thinking so much about entry as about exit. Why would a murderer possibly want to lock the house and the lock box? I could buy the fact that someone may have either waited for someone to return home and ambush them, or simply knock on the door and barge their way in, but it just wouldn't make any sense for them, in the midst of what was going on, to hunt down a key so they could lock up when they left.

Maybe it would make sense, if they wanted to make it look like a murder/ suicide, when in fact, it was highly skilled assassins who were sent to do the job, and the staging. I also think that household staff should be investigated as possible assistants. They could be a great help with both entering, exiting, and the staging.
IMO

 

[andreww]

Maybe it would make sense, if they wanted to make it look like a murder/ suicide, when in fact, it was highly skilled assassins who were sent to do the job, and the staging. I also think that household staff should be investigated as possible assistants. They could be a great help with both entering, exiting, and the staging.
IMO

Aha! So you are saying that this is staged to look like a murder / suicide, but what exactly makes you think that it wasn't that? A murder suicide?

 

[andreww]

Well, Andreww has consistently raised compelling arguments pointing to M-S, so I can't move on from that scenario entirely.

One aspect he raised was The Sherman Legacy and a collective willingness by prominent people to protect it by eliminating M-S from the equation.

Personally, I don't doubt there could be the will to do it. On the other hand it is unclear what, if any damage a M-S verdict could do, going forward.

I think much would depend on the response and actions of survivors; their strength, resolve and their vision and communication of it.

The bodies were staged...

If this is not 100 per cent fact, it turns the
M-M scenario upside down, IMO.

William, i think it is quite telling how adverse the family was to the idea of murder/suicide. Within 24 hours of the discovery of the crime, the family had already retained Greenspan and begun assembling a team. This family had absolutely no knowledge of the crime scene and no knowledge of what happened, yet within a day of the crime they are hiring the top criminal defence attorney in the country? Bottom line is that the family had absolutely no interest in knowing the truth, they simply didn't want murder/suicide to be the outcome. I think they made that quite clear.

So let's look at the actions of TPS. Within a few hours they seem quite confident in at least insinuating that this was a murder/suicide. Why? Is the murder scene that obvious? Or have they all been duped? Shortly after, the family releases a statement of their displeasure with TPS and they go silent. This is the first indication that TPS is giving way to the will of the family.

Fast forward to the end of January, Greenspan releases a to of information to the media, declaring that the Shermans were obviously victims of a double murder. The media bite and all weekend papers feature the headline that the Shermans were murdered. Remember, the only evidence they would have had was the second autopsy. Despite the fact that up until that point, all production orders only listed Honey as a victim, TPS abruptly changed course, announcing that this was a targeted double murder.

So all I ask is that TPS provide one fact, a single piece of evidence, that would lead them to believe that this was a double murder. The best answer was "six weeks of evidence". Since that declaration we have learned that ALL the key players in this case have been promoted off it and that there is only a single officer (rank unknown) assigned to it. We also know that TPS never even began the most preliminary of steps, eliminating the DNA of people that were known to have been in that house. It simply was never collected.

So you tell me, are TPS simply that incompetent, or were they never seriously investigating this case?

 

[William_60]

Solid post, Andreww...

If they misread the scene, made assumptions that led them to take and follow one prong in the road's fork over another, the ripple effects of more mis-steps and oversights could snowball quickly.

Point taken, though, serious food for thought.

On the hiring of Greenspan, again, great point and quite possibly a bullseye.

I think there's a chance Greenspan was called by the family to give them control of a situation they may have felt ill-equipped to handle.

I won't rule out he was called out of fear, for advice, for assurance and public representation.

Control was the broader motive for turning to him, the question is what elements did they want to reign-in or otherwise have him deal with?

You have your answer, I'm just not sure.

If the bodies were set and staged we know Barry could not have managed that.

What are your thoughts on this aspect?

---

On the scenario of M-S...

The couple were making plans for a new home, a new chapter, if you will.

This strikes me as a sign of some stability amongst what could be called chaos.

There were other stressful items on the stove, but based on my reading, I don't think they were mind- or spirit-breaking.

This is an area - Barry's mindset - that is interesting but purely speculation-based.

It's of very questionable worth for those observing at great distance, IMO, but I'm allowing it into 'my mix' for now.

 

[Satchie]

William, i think it is quite telling how adverse the family was to the idea of murder/suicide. Within 24 hours of the discovery of the crime, the family had already retained Greenspan and begun assembling a team. This family had absolutely no knowledge of the crime scene and no knowledge of what happened, yet within a day of the crime they are hiring the top criminal defence attorney in the country? Bottom line is that the family had absolutely no interest in knowing the truth, they simply didn't want murder/suicide to be the outcome. I think they made that quite clear.

So let's look at the actions of TPS. Within a few hours they seem quite confident in at least insinuating that this was a murder/suicide. Why? Is the murder scene that obvious? Or have they all been duped? Shortly after, the family releases a statement of their displeasure with TPS and they go silent. This is the first indication that TPS is giving way to the will of the family.

Fast forward to the end of January, Greenspan releases a to of information to the media, declaring that the Shermans were obviously victims of a double murder. The media bite and all weekend papers feature the headline that the Shermans were murdered. Remember, the only evidence they would have had was the second autopsy. Despite the fact that up until that point, all production orders only listed Honey as a victim, TPS abruptly changed course, announcing that this was a targeted double murder.

So all I ask is that TPS provide one fact, a single piece of evidence, that would lead them to believe that this was a double murder. The best answer was "six weeks of evidence". Since that declaration we have learned that ALL the key players in this case have been promoted off it and that there is only a single officer (rank unknown) assigned to it. We also know that TPS never even began the most preliminary of steps, eliminating the DNA of people that were known to have been in that house. It simply was never collected.

So you tell me, are TPS simply that incompetent, or were they never seriously investigating this case?

I believe it's the autopsy evidence, that's why the Star lead with the autopsy in their story leaked by Greenspat.

TPS would not release the evidence, since it compromises the investigation, but the family did: Barry's hand were tightly bound, that's something police always take as evidence of murder.

 

[Satchie]

Second, and I consider it my major takeaway from today, was the ex-cop/now University professor's assertion that the murders were not conducted by professionals. A compact crime scene, but not professionally done.

Sorry, I missed this, is this something you could link?

 

[Satchie]

Aha! So you are saying that this is staged to look like a murder / suicide, but what exactly makes you think that it wasn't that? A murder suicide?

Personally, I have no interest in pretending I know more about the case than LE. As was stated in the November TPS press conference, they have the evidence and won't release it because they are trying to catch the perps.

I also have zero interest in conspiracy theories, they're pure imagination. You might as well claim the head honchos at TPS have been replaced by cyborgs controlled by the Illuminati, who are intent on using Apotex to implant spy cams in generic drugs.