Found Alive WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *Arrest* #40

[mtnlites]

Anti social personality disorder is just that, a personality disorder. It is not mental illness that can be used as a defense. I see no signs in JP that he is mentally ill or mentally deficient. Those defenses will NOT be successful. However, if the public defender is hinting that they will try it, so be it. At this point, the prosecutor needs to proceed with the case. I am getting the feeling that this WILL go to trial.

The Model Penal Code which is the most popular insanity test doesn't currently recognize antisocial personality disorder (as per the criteria of the criteria of the DSMIV) so it isn't usually used as an insanity defense. However, this can vary by jurisdiction (Oklahoma, for instance, passed a law excluding ASD from an insanity defense) and it's a very complex issue with quite a few recent studies and examples that serve only to make the subject muddier. In addition, it can be presented along with a co-morbidity.

Still, it has not been reported whether JP has any kind of mental illness, personality disorder, or any medical condition at ALL so at this point it's all just speculation anyway. It's an interesting topic, we could go back and forth on it all day, but it would steer the conversation way off topic considering that any disorder or illness he has would just be our own conjecture (based on our own experiences and professional expertise) and we have no idea which way his attorneys are even leaning. More than likely, an actual trial-if there is one-is years away.

 

[gitana1]

Will Jayme google herself or JP sometime in the future? Her family may keep her away from media for awhile. These threads are interesting and informative but they might be upsetting for her to read someday. There are some positive and uplifting messages for her but also discussion of things she might rather try and forget. Her friends and classmates may also be googling info on her.

We all know why he took her and what she likely endured. It's common sense. But some of the rampant speculation about what she endured just grosses me out. It seems prurient. Like there's an excitement, a looky loo desire to get all the "juicy" details.

But with all that's out there that is not well moderated or moderated at all and that doesn't have the standards of websleuths, I think trying to police these threads isn't likely to protect Jayme.

When she googles her name she's going to get a million hits that have nothing to do with this. Thousands of media articles with people's comments. Hundreds of Facebook groups and articles. Reddit. YouTube. Etc.

I'd be much more worried about all that and it's uncontrollable.

 

[Lorelei1]

At grade 9, his girlfriend wouldn't have been driving (she'd have been 14 or 15) and wouldn't have had a vehicle. Her mother's vehicle was probably a proxy since he couldn't do anything to HER vehicle.

Yes that’s true. I was just thinking maybe he never got over being rejected by the grade 9 girl and his anger and sick fantasies involving young teenage girls has been growing ever since. Maybe he blamed the girl’s mother at the time for having something to do with the breakup, who knows. His lawyer said on Wednesday that the reason for the abduction will be answered in time. I can’t imagine what possible reason there could be for what he did.

 

[gitana1]

The Model Penal Code which is the most popular insanity test doesn't currently recognize antisocial personality disorder (as per the criteria of the criteria of the DSMIV) so it isn't usually used as an insanity defense. However, this can vary by jurisdiction (Oklahoma, for instance, passed a law excluding ASD from an insanity defense) and it's a very complex issue with quite a few recent studies and examples that serve only to make the subject muddier. In addition, it can be presented along with a co-morbidity.

Still, it has not been reported whether JP has any kind of mental illness, personality disorder, or any medical condition at ALL so at this point it's all just speculation anyway. It's an interesting topic, we could go back and forth on it all day, but it would steer the conversation way off topic considering that any disorder or illness he has would just be our own conjecture (based on our own experiences and professional expertise) and we have no idea which way his attorneys are even leaning. More than likely, an actual trial-if there is one-is years away.

It doesn't matter though, whether he has a diagnosable condition. He can be totally psychotic and it wouldn't matter. Unless he had a mental defect that prevented him from either knowing what he was doing or knowing it was wrong.

That's really about it.

You can be crazy as you know what but as long as you know what you're doing - "I'm choking someone. Not squeezing a lemon." And you know it's wrong, the defense is defeated.

 

[Rubiconbob]

Out of context, I got a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach and fresh tears filled my eyes when I read what I bolded in your comment. I wondered if the murdering Marine reject didn't turn around and inflict the same philosophy of his aborted training onto Jayme while enjoying himself as a result. ...and she just being a small 13 year old girl and him somehow reviving and restoring his bruised and battered ego (exacerbated by that 5 weeks of failure and rejection.) He recreated similar conditions in the house where he kept Jayme, except, he was the all powerful, sadistic drill sergeant and she was the powerless new recruit. I agree with those members who feel Jayme's days were numbered and would have ended soon. I think Jayme escaped just in time and I'm so grateful for every person who helped her after she freed herself.

That’s great point. He coulda easily put everything into marines.. but being sloppy doesn’t mesh...with their structure.

That and whatever we find out about foster treatment : early childhood.

Always thought it was bizarre her cleaning ... your logic makes as Mose sense as any I’ve heard.

 

[MsBetsy]

Anti social personality disorder is just that, a personality disorder. It is not mental illness that can be used as a defense. I see no signs in JP that he is mentally ill or mentally deficient. Those defenses will NOT be successful. However, if the public defender is hinting that they will try it, so be it. At this point, the prosecutor needs to proceed with the case. I am getting the feeling that this WILL go to trial.

I understand what you mean by not being able to use that particular mental disorder as a defense, but just to clarify all of the Personality Disorders are Mental Illnesses. Disorder is just the preferred term as opposed to "illness."
But in terms of the legal definition of insanity, or knowing right from wrong, it would not apply.
Most psychopaths know right from wrong, they just don't care. Imo

 

[Rubiconbob]

I did think the same. It didn't fly in the Elizabeth Smart case though and was quite legitimate. He really did think God was telling him to do that stuff.
These defense attorneys are going to have a really hard time getting him less than life in prison. (I really hope at least.)

I don’t think anyone would buy insanity defense ever with him... if it turns out he was brutally treated in early childhood it doesn’t absolve him..... just adds more sadness to brutal case.

If he kills parents and kidnaps jayme to paint the inside of his house again and again, then I’d buy insanity...

I’d hope once he talks to parents there’s a breakthrough and it’s over.. 100 yrs in lock up.

 

[rogue ant]

Deleted by me, messed up quotes.

 

[Breezie]

Chicago Tribune: We all know the name Jayme Closs. Let's be responsible with it

Her astonishing abduction and its exhilarating end — Jayme alive, running free and quickly reunited with family after 88 days missing — has understandably captivated the nation’s attention.

So far, authorities have successfully balanced the public interest in justice with concern for the victim’s privacy.

 

[rogue ant]

Unless defense drags it out the closet with all the other skeletons, don't suppose we'll be finding that out any time soon.

Everything else about this case is seething rage toward his parents.

As I've heard said from an aging baby of the family, 'You never let me grow up'.

I understand. However we are supposed to back up such statements with links to mainstream media or similarly reliable sources.

 

[bronk4]

Sometimes I wonder if heinous crimes are committed out of pure boredom. You have to have some type of life goals. Ambition in a good way.

possibly ''part'' of it
....if you have wife/kids/etc they will keep you busy
...I just have barely enough time to eat, relax, and get ready for the next day if I want to get enough sleep--and this is after my kids are grown
..2 kids with 2 practices per week/2 games per weekend/other activities/etc = no time to be bored
--but I think a lot of people do not get enough sleep and these youngsters [ killers ] will stay up late--so they have ''extra time''
...IMO, these type of criminals/serial killers fantasize-think about-plan-''rationalize'' --etc their crimes for days/weeks/months/years
....what ''normal'' people think is crazy, these criminals ''rationalize'' it to be normal/ok/workable
....humans will believe and rationalize the most outlandish things because they want-need them to be true
bold for emphasis only

 

[pepper 34]

Anybody else find this in poor taste ...
Did the family request this ...

If she’s lost for 2 weeks in woods I get it.

This is one messed up case ... I would think she wants new memories and left alone after awhile... 5 yrs from now she sees this t shirt dunno what she thinks...

This guy seems tacky AF... it’s almost like an ad....

My thoughts, almost exactly. They state the family gave the okay... but did Jayme give the okay to have these shirts printed up? I hope so.... after 88 days of having her own life choices set at zero (even being unable to decide when to use a bathroom!) I don't like the word play on her name as it seems, imo, to trivialize what she went through. Yes, she is an amazing and brave person, but she is also in a position of trying to re-claim her sense of self and normalcy and her own "place" in a very changed world where her parents no longer exist. Jayme is in mourning. I see no reason not to contribute to a legitimate bank fund set up in her name, but would dispense with anything that smacks of an emotionally charged "semi-celebration" where money is being collected "for her." Imo, this "party atmosphere" needs to tone down and disappear because it is doing nothing that will help Jayme recover.... just the opposite, imo.
ETA It also bothers me because JAYME is the name her parents gave her... not Jamazing. But, Jayme.

 

[bronk4]

sorry if it has been said but one of the MSM's headlines said this was '''like'' a horror story
--no--it is a horror story

 

[Investgator]

She will need counciling to help her with trama

 

[gitana1]

Criminal case against Jake Patterson not a simple one even though he said 'I did it'

Interesting story on MPR this morning (sorry if already posted).
3 takeaways...
1. Defense will likely try to plead insanity, but it is likely to be struck down because of his level of planning and coherence.
2. There is nowhere in the state that would be better for JTP. Everyone knows about this story.
3. Douglas County is hoping they won't have to file charges at all. If JTP pleads guilty they likely won't. If they have to file charges they are anticipating a media circus.

Thanks!

Gotta love the defense attorneys trying desperately to find a way to make this a hard case to win.

Uh, no. No way did he suffer a three month delusion that told him he was doing the right thing. "I didn't plan well enough."

 

[Hope4More]

It hasn't worked in a lot of cases. I hope it doesn't in this one, either. I hope he cops a plea.

John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, and Charles Manson all had
Anti-Social Personality Disorder. Jeffrey Dahmer and Aileen Wurnos had Borderline Personality Disorder. Ed Gein, Richard Chase, David Gonzalez, and David Berkowitz (Son of Sam) were all schizophrenic. None of these defenses flew, either. Still, sometimes they do try. Dahmer tried to plead insanity but failed. Gacy's defense attorneys tried the insanity defense, but they also failed. And sometimes it changes. Ed Gein, for instance, was found fit to stand trial but was later found to be insane at the time of the murders and was sent to a psychiatric hospital. Berkowitz was initially found mentally incapable of assisting in his own defense with the argument that he did not understand the charges against him. Psychiatrists concluded that his paranoid psychosis left him emotionally dead and unable to assist in his own defense. However, this was challenged later and different doctors decided that while he MAY have been insane at the time of the murders, that with treatment he could now participate in his defense.

So it's really hard to say. You'd think with all the information they currently have, including his confession, that there isn't a GOOD defense that anyone could try. But there have been some awfully weird cases in the past, too.

There's always unaccountable weirdness and anomalies in anything, including criminal cases and trials, but there is nothing in the information made public so far to suggest that this can't and won't be be held fully responsible for the crimes he committed, and everything to indicate that he will be.

By his own admission he carefully planned, over weeks, to murder and to kidnap a child. He then chose, day after day after day, for three months, to hold that child captive and to conceal her from whatever visitors he actually had (I suspect it was only his father, and on some, not every Saturday).

For that matter, he could have chosen to kill Jayme at any point during the interminable months he held her, but did not. His defense could try to spin the fact that he didn't as somehow mitigating, but the little Jayme told LE about her captivity suggests it was anything but, as does the 's confession, which suggests instead that he took sadistic pleasure in her terror, and in his belief that he wielded complete control over her.

Who cares what label can or may or will be slapped on, after the fact, at trial or elsewhere, to "explain" his motivation. No label or diagnosis will change the fact of his culpability, and IMO, none, no matter how expertly defined or argued, will be able to truly explain how he or anyone else is capable of such horrors, and of feeling remorseless afterwards.

 

[bronk4]

The way he kept her reminds me of how a child will keep a stray cat hidden in their room. It's odd that he had no preparations for her, when he goes on and on about how he thought and prepared for the abduction, even down to removing the dome light in his car and taking a shower before he left.

humans make mistakes and forget things
odd --yes--understandable--yes also

 

[Investgator]

I prayed for jayme every day to find her

 

[bechk45]

Thanks!

Gotta love the defense attorneys trying desperately to find a way to make this a hard case to win.

Uh, no. No way did he suffer a three month delusion that told him he was doing the right thing. "I didn't plan well enough."

I had the impression that defense CAN'T do anything so they were going to throw this out there to make it look like they tried.
I mean, what can they do? It would be great if they just plead guilty and be done with it, but they have to at least look like the public defender didn't just throw in the towel and call him guilty too.

 

[Julia966]

We all know why he took her and what she likely endured. It's common sense. But some of the rampant speculation about what she endured just grosses me out. It seems prurient. Like there's an excitement, a looky loo desire to get all the "juicy" details.

But with all that's out there that is not well moderated or moderated at all and that doesn't have the standards of websleuths, I think trying to police these threads isn't likely to protect Jayme.

When she googles her name she's going to get a million hits that have nothing to do with this. Thousands of media articles with people's comments. Hundreds of Facebook groups and articles. Reddit. YouTube. Etc.

I'd be much more worried about all that and it's uncontrollable.

Speaking for myself, I don't feel like I do know the reasons he kidnapped and kept her. The obvious may be a big part of it, but I don't assume that, and I suspect there's more. Only long hours with a psychiatrist, if that were to ever happen, would tell us, IMO.