Found Alive WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *Arrest* #41

[human]

I'm not sure what the neighbors knew by the time the FBI came to see them. They claimed they didn't know anything happened until later in the morning when the FBI knocked on their door. It's possible that the officers who came to see the neighbors said "Your neighbors Jim and Denise have been found dead and their daughter is missing-- is it ok to search your property?" It's possible they asked the neighbors questions like "Do you own any firearms?" With those two questions alone it would not be hard to guess James and Denise had been shot and there must have been at least 2 gunshots fired.

It's possible that the neighbors honestly thought they heard something that night but were not as awake as they thought. Perhaps their clocks were off more than they thought. Or it's possible they completely fabricated the story for some bizarre reason (false memory, desire for media attention, wanting to be helpful, I don't know why). No matter why they were incorrect about everything the fact is they were incorrect. Unsubstantiated. There were many other inconsistencies in the neighbor's story. I posted a list of some of the inconsistencies here:
AMBER ALERT - WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *endangered* #28
I doubt the neighbors will be testifying in court to what they heard. They are the last source we should rely on for correct info. MOO.

A couple of points.

1. They did not know there was a child . Jayme went to her aunt’s before for school. They figured out there was a child there because the school bus started stopping there after Jayme stopped going to daycare at her aunt’s.

2. The sheriff said all kinds of things that were not true such as there were no footprints. So who knows about the neighbors and the gunshots.

3. It makes sense that they were asked about weapons. But I doubt if they are liars.

 

[human]

She's a child. They can be easily led to believe no one cares and no one is looking. This is a common tactic of kidnappers. Steven Stayner's kidnapped told him that. He believed it until he escaped.

Steven Stayner came from a different kind of family than Jayme.

I have no doubt he told her that no one would look for her or care.

 

[SeekingJana]

Aside from the professional and spiritual counseling this community should take advantage of, I think there is a great way for them to come together and heal....defiantly. I love it when survivors are *defiant*, refusing to turn their power over forever to their tormentors.

I would love to see Barron come together with an annual drive/fund raiser for victims of violence. There are many, many organizations they could chose to contribute to. Maybe a different one each year, for that matter. They could hold an annual fund raiser that is a picnic, a talent show, whatever.

But the point is, the community can heal by coming together (like they did for Jayme), with defiance and a purpose!

I'm so impressed by the Citizens of Barron, and most especially their Hero Sheriff.

Defiance!

Amateur opinion and speculation

I think so highly of your victim- first attitude and respectful posts.

Would you consider changing the celebration from " Defiant" to " Victorious"?

Once, Jayme was a VICTIM. JP was her VICTOR and his gun was her parent's VICTOR when he used it against them.
Now, however, Jayme has her power back, and with this, she has escaped and is POSITIVELY VICTORIOUS!!
We overcome past acts of evil with positive thoughts and actions in a community setting, I think.
JMO.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I think so highly of your victim- first attitude and respectful posts.

Would you consider changing the celebration from " Defiant" to " Victorious"?

Once, Jayme was a VICTIM. JP was her VICTOR and his gun was her parent's VICTOR when he used it against them.
Now, however, Jayme has her power back, and with this, she has escaped and is POSITIVELY VICTORIOUS!!
We overcome past acts of evil with positive thoughts and actions in a community setting, I think.
JMO.

Yes, ultimately, love conquers all. It really does.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I’m claiming complete ignorance here: is it common to call it a “kidnapping cord”? Sometimes, things pick up odd names and catch on en masse. I didn’t even know there was a glow in the dark safety latch on the truck. Makes sense, though. tia.

I believe in the United States they have been required to have the safety latches in the trunk. Since 2002. I'm not sure when they require them to be glow in the dark. Here is a harrowing real life video of kidnapping victim escaping due to having such.

It seems the most common name for them are Escape latches, but other people do indeed call them other things.

Video Shows Alabama Kidnapping Victim Escaping From Trunk of Car

 

[human]

What always got me with the neighbors was their seeing the school bus stop and stating they didn't children lived at the Closs residence. SMH

What? They said they realized a child lived there because the school bus stopped there. Until Jayme’s aunt moved, Jayme was not brought to and from school by the bus.

 

[Gracie55]

So we come back to our 4 legged furry friends and their intuition. Something is not right. Like myself, the neighbors knew the thier Dog was uncomfortable but couldn't pinpoint why and perhaps didn't join the dots between shots fired and why their dog was restless.

Not forgetting the Dogs were Neighbors as well and probably understood unusual yaps and barks. Like us humans, they communicate and alert to something unusual.

Edited to add a bit

Dogs hearing picks up more than ours and they heard the frantic scuffing, door being busted, voices and screams

 

[Gardener1850]

A couple of points.

1. They did not know there was a child . Jayme went to her aunt’s before for school. They figured out there was a child there because the school bus started stopping there after Jayme stopped going to daycare at her aunt’s.

2. The sheriff said all kinds of things that were not true such as there were no footprints. So who knows about the neighbors and the gunshots.

3. It makes sense that they were asked about weapons. But I doubt if they are liars.

Where did the sheriff say there were no footprints?

I did not call the neighbors liars. I don't know why they were wrong. The fact is they were wrong. Witnesses who see a crime are often mistaken in their testimony. Witnesses get details wrong. All the time. Even more so when they see something or hear something and they don't know it is important to remember it at the time. False memories happen. We could go around all day trying to figure out why the neighbors were incorrect on the timing and the number of gunshots. Were they genuine or not? We do not know. Does it really matter what they said since it is incorrect info? Is the neighbor's account critical to the investigation? It seems not to be. It seems to be unsubstantiated info as the sheriff reported. I'm going with the what the sheriff said. MOO.

 

[SeekingJana]

I wasn't meaning to blame the father. I was saying I don't have enough info to understand the living situation clearly. It seems bizarre to me. It seems off to me. Are you saying you think the father knew he was dangerous and unstable? Is that why JTP was allowed to live alone in the cabin? I'm not sure I have seen anything to indicate the father knew his son was a danger to others before this crime. But if I thought my son was potentially dangerous (as you said) I wouldn't let him live in my old house alone. If I didn't want him in stores (your words not mine) I would not let him live unsupervised in a vacant vacation property with access to many old family vehicles. I can only assume at this point that the father didn't think his son was a danger. Perhaps he only thought he was a little odd? But I still can't reconcile that idea with the unusual living situation. Maybe more info will come out and it will all make sense to me. I agree with you about the jobs. I think he only applied for work to be able to tell his family he was trying or he was somehow getting a government benefit that required he apply for jobs every so often. JMO.

I think the entire family had to have known he was not like others for years.

Because of the explosive temper he's been said to have, and this is a common trait in the sociopath, I think his father has seen his violence. In ways I don't want to speculate on, but it might have been that he hurt or threatened to hurt someone weaker than his father or him... a family member the father truly does love.

IF I had a son with just the traits the laypeople described in school by some of his teachers and classmates, or people who were neighbors who said we don't go in that house, as in " it's not safe there and everyone here knows it" or basically anyone except that grandfather, AND the mental health system had failed both him and me, I'd do whatever was likely to keep him from being violently angry at anyone.
That might mean hiring a caregiver but making the big strong man a " friend" or " renter" at the cabin.
I'd try to make sure he was as isolated as he wanted to be, and I'd try to keep things " on an even keel" as my father, a shipman in WWII, used to say.

However, because I am not co-dependent or enabling, I'd walk away if the disrespect was above my tolerance levels. At some point, I'd think he'd get into enough trouble to get put in jail and maybe straighten up afterwards. Or would fall apart inside the house and meet the criteria for involuntary commitment to a State Mental Hospital.

Did PP think his son was going to shoot 2 innocent people at point blank range and then abduct a girl until she escaped, keeping her in the house PP visited to drop off food and money? NO not for a minute am I assigning any criminal knowledge to PP. I consider him to be a peripheral victim of his son's criminality according to what the situation seems to have been IMO.

IF info comes out that things were not a matter of " letting sleeping dogs lie" then we'll likely mostly change our opinions of what options were available, but now, he's a hurting father who feels very sorry and sad for the Closs family, James, Denise and Jayme.
He'd most likely first have removed the gun or guns if he'd known his 21 year old was homicidal. Gun or guns were the father's, after all.
This dude would have simply found the way to get another shotgun or other weapon. He's obviously very mentally disordered and has been for some time.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

How did they know that the Challenger and the black SUV were not the kidnapper’s?

I think the Taurus is a screw up on their part.

I don't know. It's such a crazy messed up case. Stranger abduction, plus double murder.
I think serendipity helped in the end.
I wonder how this would have turned out if they went after the Taurus from the get go. Hostage situations are never easy. Especially with a hell-bent perp,backed in a corner.
He certainly felt comfortable enough to drive around in it,and leave her alone.
Which allowed her to escape.
MOO.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Is this against TOS ... good news ?

Accused child molester investigated in 2017 murders of Indiana teens: report

I cannot find an open thread for this case, only NON discussion media thread for this case?

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

 

[human]

Where did the sheriff say there were no footprints?

I did not call the neighbors liars. I don't know why they were wrong. The fact is they were wrong. Witnesses who see a crime are often mistaken in their testimony. Witnesses get details wrong. All the time. Even more so when they see something or hear something and they don't know it is important to remember it at the time. False memories happen. We could go around all day trying to figure out why the neighbors were incorrect on the timing and the number of gunshots. Were they genuine or not? We do not know. Does it really matter what they said since it is incorrect info? Is the neighbor's account critical to the investigation? It seems not to be. It seems to be unsubstantiated info as the sheriff reported. I'm going with the what the sheriff said. MOO.

No link but the sheriff said there was zero. He also said the perp went five feet into the house which we know is not right as he checked the other rooms and was in the bathroom

I care about the neighbors being denigrated because I want people to not be afraid of giving info.

 

[Pretty Go Pale]

Where did the sheriff say there were no footprints?

I did not call the neighbors liars. I don't know why they were wrong. The fact is they were wrong. Witnesses who see a crime are often mistaken in their testimony. Witnesses get details wrong. All the time. Even more so when they see something or hear something and they don't know it is important to remember it at the time. False memories happen. We could go around all day trying to figure out why the neighbors were incorrect on the timing and the number of gunshots. Were they genuine or not? We do not know. Does it really matter what they said since it is incorrect info? Is the neighbor's account critical to the investigation? It seems not to be. It seems to be unsubstantiated info as the sheriff reported. I'm going with the what the sheriff said. MOO.

Sheriff: No fingerprints, no shoe prints, no DNA in Closs ca...

 

[human]

Where did the sheriff say there were no footprints?

I did not call the neighbors liars. I don't know why they were wrong. The fact is they were wrong. Witnesses who see a crime are often mistaken in their testimony. Witnesses get details wrong. All the time. Even more so when they see something or hear something and they don't know it is important to remember it at the time. False memories happen. We could go around all day trying to figure out why the neighbors were incorrect on the timing and the number of gunshots. Were they genuine or not? We do not know. Does it really matter what they said since it is incorrect info? Is the neighbor's account critical to the investigation? It seems not to be. It seems to be unsubstantiated info as the sheriff reported. I'm going with the what the sheriff said. MOO.

From your post:

Or it's possible they completely fabricated the story for some bizarre reason (false memory, desire for media attention, wanting to be helpful, I don't know why

 

[Lillymac]

The second shot would indeed be louder. How much louder I can't say and, of course, the hearing thresholds, etc., of the observers also can factor in. Shot 1 was directed into the house through an easily breakable window. The air motion (sound) was primarily distributed indoors. The house itself was acting like a silencer or, on a car's exhaust, a muffler, with the walls, doors, counter tops, furnishings, etc., all acting as baffles. With Shot 2, much more of the air motion remained outside of the house, in the open, with nothing to contain it. Much the same way that standing on the front porch and yelling, "Is anybody home?" will be somewhat louder to the neighbors than cracking the door a few inches and sticking your head in to yell. Shot 3, originating somewhere inside the house, would likely be the least loud of all.

WRT sirens, gunshots are significantly louder, if of shorter duration. Although I'd expect the witnesses to hear both once LE was in the driveway unless they already suffered from some form of hearing loss or something. Being so much younger, I'm betting JP heard the approaching sirens clearly even as he was loading JC into his car.

How loud is your gun

They could have silenced the sirens as they hot nearer to the house.

 

[Vaderman]

One thing that really sticks out to me is that, despite some of the wild theories as the days wore on (food recalls, gambling debts, false paternity, love affairs), what actually occurred was rather spot on with what people theorized in the beginning:

• Perp spots her getting onto a school bus, becomes obsessed, no known connection
• Dog starts barking, everyone wakes up
• Father goes to the door to see what's up, is killed through the door
• Mother and Jayme barricade themselves
• Sheriff says 911 call sounded as though made from a different room (sounds on the call are Jake screaming at them to open the door/attempting to breach the bathroom door?)
• Police quickly respond, actually pass the perp on their way to the scene

I remember someone in the early days insisting people remember Occam's Razor in theorizing this case. The early theories were spot on.

 

[The Dude]

Sheriff: No fingerprints, no shoe prints, no DNA in Closs ca...

I was just about to post another link to this.

What's strange is that there doesn't seem to be any obvious reason to lie about all this. I mean, it's not like the bad guy didn't already know exactly what happened in that house that night, so what would be the purpose of this specific misinformation?

 

[The Dude]

<modsnipped quoted post>
It's an extension of the fact that Jayme was kept confined for up to 12 hours in the weird bed cage thing.

 

[Gardener1850]

No link but the sheriff said there was zero. He also said the perp went five feet into the house which we know is not right as he checked the other rooms and was in the bathroom

I care about the neighbors being denigrated because I want people to not be afraid of giving info.

Ok. Think whatever you like, but it is not denigrating the neighbors to state they had incorrect info and gave inconsistent accounts. Those are facts. LE has spoken and said their account was unsubstantiated.

 

[ilovechili]

LE in this town is changing their protocol because of Jayme

Agencies update child abduction protocol after Jayme Closs abduction

I found this very interesting. Thank you for sharing it.