OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#43

[sunshineray]

The custody documents were forged before the crime but are considered Tampering with Evidence because the Wags knew a crime was going to happen and knew there would be an investigation, so they tampered with the custody documents to help mislead and hinder the investigation.

The Wagner's knew there would be an investigation after the murders and burglaries, so before the murders they Tampered with Evidence, meaning they got rid of and destroyed and concealed-- all evidence they thought would be discovered during the investigation linking them to the crimes.

This involves all physical and digital evidence that they had been using in preparing for the crimes.

Their indictments on Evidence Tampering covers the dates from January 1st 2016, through May 17, 2017. Tampering with Evidence before-- during-- and after.

Tampering with Evidence: Ohio Criminal Law | Jeff Hastings | Criminal Civil Defense Law Attorney Cleveland Ohio

The tampering one I was looking at was count 19 or 20? Someone had posted it. It had the beginning date for tampering in 2014.

 

[rsd1200]

I was just watching Investigation Discovery. They had a Walmart receipt. By scanning the bar code on it they pulled up the camera video showing the entrance just before the purchase and one over the top of the register at the time of the purchase. So, a Walmart receipt can definitely show evidence of purchases used in crimes. A Lowes receipt showed the time and video when more things were purchased to commit the crime.... Little things mean a lot...

Walmart's got it goin' on! Absolutely no way, would I buy items from them that were going to be used to commit a crime (nor would I attempt to steal from them. j.s.). Surely they didn't buy close to home, there are a boo coo of them within 40 sum odd miles from them. One even over in Ky. that's only around 35 miles.

 

[Dudly]

Walmart's got it goin' on! Absolutely no way, would I buy items from them that were going to be used to commit a crime (nor would I attempt to steal from them. j.s.). Surely they didn't buy close to home, there are a boo coo of them within 40 sum odd miles from them. One even over in Ky. that's only around 35 miles.

Walmart must have some major losses due to theft that they can afford a system that sophisticated at the stores. You definitely will leave an evidence trail there if you buy something. The show I mentioned showed that they found a receipt on a boat that traced back to the guy buying two cement blocks at Lowes, too. He didn't dye his hair but he shaved his head to alter his appearance.
It gives a whole new meaning to not losing your receipt...

 

[FrescaandSouthernComfort]

FrescaandSouthernComfort, do you think there is any significance in the location of one of the arrests? TY

Not so much as the location, rather that all 6 were being watched and also CPS was involved. Many agencies
were notified and kept it quiet until all were in custody.

 

[sunshineray]

"Tampering with evidence, or evidence tampering, is an act in which a person alters, conceals, falsifies, or destroys evidence with the intent to interfere with an investigation (usually) by a law-enforcement, governmental, or regulatory authority."

About the cyber crimes committed from the 2014 date up til January 2016 (stated by LE as the beginning timeframe of the murders planning by W's), if JW or a hacker he employed altered HR'S facebook in any way on the sly wouldn't she have noticed? That's why I can't understand how tampering charge apply to that time period. Any altering wouldn't have been done then, according to LE timeline, with the intent to "interfere with an investigation". Would it? Am I just having a senior moment in this and the specific reason for charging tampering in that 2014 - January 2016 timeframe is obvious? Tia to any who can help me understand this better.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

Walmart must have some major losses due to theft that they can afford a system that sophisticated at the stores. You definitely will leave an evidence trail there if you buy something. The show I mentioned showed that they found a receipt on a boat that traced back to the guy buying two cement blocks at Lowes, too. He didn't dye his hair but he shaved his head to alter his appearance.
It gives a whole new meaning to not losing your receipt...

If you look back into the past court records AW has some shoplifting again her Walmart camera time stamp people pictures who has stolen from them, they know when priori shoplifters are in the store and what was purchased.

 

[Dudly]

If you look back into the past court records AW has some shoplifting again her Walmart camera time stamp people pictures who has stolen from them, they know when priori shoplifters are in the store and what was purchased.

I always wondered about the past theft, etc., charges against GWIII and AW when his parents were millionaires. Either he didn't get anything from them or not enough to satisfy his life style desires. Did FW own all the places they lived till JW and GWIV bought that house?
I've also never understood GWIV being married and not having his own place or JW at his age when he was supposedly getting married. I had my own place at age 20. There was a strange family dynamic of some kind...

 

[Betty P]

"Tampering with evidence, or evidence tampering, is an act in which a person alters, conceals, falsifies, or destroys evidence with the intent to interfere with an investigation (usually) by a law-enforcement, governmental, or regulatory authority."

About the cyber crimes committed from the 2014 date up til January 2016 (stated by LE as the beginning timeframe of the murders planning by W's), if JW or a hacker he employed altered HR'S facebook in any way on the sly wouldn't she have noticed? That's why I can't understand how tampering charge apply to that time period. Any altering wouldn't have been done then, according to LE timeline, with the intent to "interfere with an investigation". Would it? Am I just having a senior moment in this and the specific reason for charging tampering in that 2014 - January 2016 timeframe is obvious? Tia to any who can help me understand this better.

The "Tampering With Evidence" (Count 17) charges only apply from dates in 2016, when the planning began for the murders.

The "Unauthorized Use of Property" (Count 19) and "Interception of Wire, Oral or Electronic Communications" (Count 20) charges applied beginning in 2014. Those were illegal acts on their own. It wasn't legally necessary for them to be connected to the murders or part of planning them. So, yes, they're legally sound and related to the murders. JMO.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

I always wondered about the past theft, etc., charges against GWIII and AW when his parents were millionaires. Either he didn't get anything from them or not enough to satisfy his life style desires. Did FW own all the places they lived till JW and GWIV bought that house?
I've also never understood GWIV being married and not having his own place or JW at his age when he was supposedly getting married. I had my own place at age 20. There was a strange family dynamic of some kind...

GW3 was living with FW until after 4/22/2016 as the past report states don’t know if him and AW where split up, I can’t find any other place of employment for him other than Flying W, and the two son just worked part time here and there, JMO FW is the person making payment on JW and GW4 new home.

 

[Betty P]

Not so much as the location, rather that all 6 were being watched and also CPS was involved. Many agencies
were notified and kept it quiet until all were in custody.

Agree, JMO, the only relevance of location seems to be that as few of them as possible were at home or similar location where they could have access to weapons to barricade themselves and possibly escape. It was still an extremely risky operation even with that level of planning.

 

[Puzzles8]

Walmart must have some major losses due to theft that they can afford a system that sophisticated at the stores. You definitely will leave an evidence trail there if you buy something. The show I mentioned showed that they found a receipt on a boat that traced back to the guy buying two cement blocks at Lowes, too. He didn't dye his hair but he shaved his head to alter his appearance.
It gives a whole new meaning to not losing your receipt...

Or the "convenience" of having it e-mailed to you.

 

[rsd1200]

I always wondered about the past theft, etc., charges against GWIII and AW when his parents were millionaires. Either he didn't get anything from them or not enough to satisfy his life style desires. Did FW own all the places they lived till JW and GWIV bought that house?
I've also never understood GWIV being married and not having his own place or JW at his age when he was supposedly getting married. I had my own place at age 20. There was a strange family dynamic of some kind...

I think she may have helped them but they by no means lived the life of Reilly.

 

[Betty P]

Or the "convenience" of having it e-mailed to you.

Aha! Hadn't thought of that angle. I always say "no" because I don't want to have my email spammed with their ads.

I know quite a few people who try to pay cash when shopping just to avoid all the data gathering and trafficking.

 

[Betty P]

I think she may have helped them but they by no means lived the life of Reilly.

Right. She seems somewhat frugal, JMO, and probably gave them the minimal amount to keep a roof over their heads. It's so odd, though, that the kids were the only ones who went out in the world, got training and somewhat regular jobs.

Quite the "enmeshed" family.

 

[Puzzles8]

Right. She seems somewhat frugal, JMO, and probably gave them the minimal amount to keep a roof over their heads. It's so odd, though, that the kids were the only ones who went out in the world, got training and somewhat regular jobs.

Quite the "enmeshed" family.

FW might be land rich and cash poor. I think a lot of her "wealth" involves the value of her land, not exactly a liquid asset. To convert that wealth to available cash FW would need to either sell it or borrow against it.

She seems to have steady income and $ government subsidies from her land and land contracts with few expenses related to them other than property taxes (and legal fees...). Oh yeah, and add her Crystal Springs administrative salary.

On the other hand, I can't imagine the expense of running a horse farm of that size. Vet bills, feed, animal care, horseshoes, saddles, trailers and powerful trucks to haul horse trailers, training, outbuildings & their maintenance, licenses, utilities, fuel, farm equipment, the list goes on.

 

[Renee110]

Wow. I have followed this from the beginning, but for some reason my thoughts never went to HR’s boyfriend being there that night. I bet that young man feels like he has 10,000 angels watching over him.

I have often thought that they expected Hanna's boyfriend CH to be with her that night. I am sure that Jake would have happily taken him out too.

JMO

.

 

[Puzzles8]

IMO, it is as the evidence states, and the date was 4/3/16. I think Rita knew full well what she was doing and I believe these forgeries were done to get past the borders. Also, remember, all 4 Ws are charged with forgery. That is very telling. All JMO.

The only date that can be accurately established is either the date they were presented to LE or the date they were presented to border agents.
The actual date of the forgery harder to approximate. They could have been done in 2015 or in 2017 before they left for AK. They forged HMR's signature whether she was dead or alive. The only thing that might be telling is something in the Notary stamp. Most of the stamp is pretty generic, the personalization includes the Notary's name and the date their license expires. Each time the Notary renews their license, they get a new stamp. In our state, I think licenses are good for 3 or 4 years before they need to be renewed.
The April 3, 2016 date could mean several things. Could be the "date" they wrote on the forged document. Dates on those documents are hand written. 4/3/16 could also be the date they were presented to LE. I don't know enough to be able to tell from reading the Indictment, so here are 2 possible scenarios.
My 2 possible scenarios. MOO
Documents were legally prepared (no doubt by Mr. Owen) prior to 4/3/2016. The documents have no date on the printed document. The W's took the documents over to the R's house/s for HMR to sign. She refuses and calls CRsr to come over.
1) Big fight between Billy and CRsr ensues. Billy loses the fight badly and they leave humiliated and with unsigned custody papers. The W's get home and forge HMR's signature and write in any date they want - say, 4/3/2916. RN notarizes later.
2) Forged documents are prepared and notarized by RN before 4/3/2016. JW (and crew?) try to take SW on 4/3/2016, HMR refuses. Big fight between Billy and CRsr ensues. Billy loses fight badly and calls LE. After LE arrives, one of the W's pulls LE aside and present the falsified and notarized custody documents to them on 4/3/2016(documents could have any date prior to 4/3/2016 on them). LE allows SW to be taken by the Wagners.
JMO

 

[The 13th]

The only date that can be accurately established is either the date they were presented to LE or the date they were presented to border agents.
The actual date of the forgery harder to approximate. They could have been done in 2015 or in 2017 before they left for AK. They forged HMR's signature whether she was dead or alive. The only thing that might be telling is something in the Notary stamp. Most of the stamp is pretty generic, the personalization includes the Notary's name and the date their license expires. Each time the Notary renews their license, they get a new stamp. In our state, I think licenses are good for 3 or 4 years before they need to be renewed.
The April 3, 2016 date could mean several things. Could be the "date" they wrote on the forged document. Dates on those documents are hand written. 4/3/16 could also be the date they were presented to LE. I don't know enough to be able to tell from reading the Indictment, so here are 2 possible scenarios.
My 2 possible scenarios. MOO
Documents were legally prepared (no doubt by Mr. Owen) prior to 4/3/2016. The documents have no date on the printed document. The W's took the documents over to the R's house/s for HMR to sign. She refuses and calls CRsr to come over.
1) Big fight between Billy and CRsr ensues. Billy loses the fight badly and they leave humiliated and with unsigned custody papers. The W's get home and forge HMR's signature and write in any date they want - say, 4/3/2916. RN notarizes later.
2) Forged documents are prepared and notarized by RN before 4/3/2016. JW (and crew?) try to take SW on 4/3/2016, HMR refuses. Big fight between Billy and CRsr ensues. Billy loses fight badly and calls LE. After LE arrives, one of the W's pulls LE aside and present the falsified and notarized custody documents to them on 4/3/2016(documents could have any date prior to 4/3/2016 on them). LE allows SW to be taken by the Wagners.
JMO

Thank you -- either one of these makes sense IMO.

I wonder, about #2. Was it ever determined what specific thing LM was referring to in one of his early interviews when he was upset and complaining about the deputies. He said something about them having been up there just recently (I can't remember off the top of my head) and how the deputies were "snots. Just pure snots."

Maybe it was something like #2 that he's describing. Which could have such major legal ramifications for the Wagners (if the Rhodens are left alive) it could have been a tipping point for the evil weirdos.

 

[FonescaFan]

I always wondered about the past theft, etc., charges against GWIII and AW when his parents were millionaires. Either he didn't get anything from them or not enough to satisfy his life style desires. Did FW own all the places they lived till JW and GWIV bought that house?
I've also never understood GWIV being married and not having his own place or JW at his age when he was supposedly getting married. I had my own place at age 20. There was a strange family dynamic of some kind...

Dudley, exactly! Something doesn’t add up. Did FW cut them off at some point? If Robin has stayed on at FWF all her life, there’s no reason GWIII couldn’t have as well. JMO. I hope the W family assets are revealed in the trials.

 

[Betty P]

The only date that can be accurately established is either the date they were presented to LE or the date they were presented to border agents.
The actual date of the forgery harder to approximate. They could have been done in 2015 or in 2017 before they left for AK. They forged HMR's signature whether she was dead or alive. The only thing that might be telling is something in the Notary stamp. Most of the stamp is pretty generic, the personalization includes the Notary's name and the date their license expires. Each time the Notary renews their license, they get a new stamp. In our state, I think licenses are good for 3 or 4 years before they need to be renewed.
The April 3, 2016 date could mean several things. Could be the "date" they wrote on the forged document. Dates on those documents are hand written. 4/3/16 could also be the date they were presented to LE. I don't know enough to be able to tell from reading the Indictment, so here are 2 possible scenarios.
My 2 possible scenarios. MOO
Documents were legally prepared (no doubt by Mr. Owen) prior to 4/3/2016. The documents have no date on the printed document. The W's took the documents over to the R's house/s for HMR to sign. She refuses and calls CRsr to come over.
1) Big fight between Billy and CRsr ensues. Billy loses the fight badly and they leave humiliated and with unsigned custody papers. The W's get home and forge HMR's signature and write in any date they want - say, 4/3/2916. RN notarizes later.
2) Forged documents are prepared and notarized by RN before 4/3/2016. JW (and crew?) try to take SW on 4/3/2016, HMR refuses. Big fight between Billy and CRsr ensues. Billy loses fight badly and calls LE. After LE arrives, one of the W's pulls LE aside and present the falsified and notarized custody documents to them on 4/3/2016(documents could have any date prior to 4/3/2016 on them). LE allows SW to be taken by the Wagners.
JMO

If it helps. Len Manley stated in the news media at the time of the raids on the Wagner farms that the W's had tried to force HMR to sign custody documents. Two weeks before, IIRC

It's in our timeline back on the first page of this thread.