CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #7

[JMarsh]

ahh you could be right! I found that he had a box of cheques though ;-) If they had taken a better photo, I might be able to see the cheque numbers LOL

Quickbooks may be different now, but they would give the client actual checks, with bank numbers etc, and you had to align them properly and all that would get filled in was client name, amount and reference. There is a lot about this in the search warrants. Too tired to go into it now. But later this week if this issue isn't covered at trial.

 

[JMarsh]

We DON'T know ANY forensic results from the graves, other than the bodies and how they were murdered.

Actually we do now know that there are DNA profiles found on specific items in the graves that are those of 3 males and one female-none of which match any of the victims or Chase.

 

[JMarsh]

well I mean people can have more than one pair of 'ugly' boots

Ha. Yes they can.

 

[Force Ten]

I think Joey would have to know. He paid Chase 173k in one year, and chase couldn't pay his rent? That had to bring up some questions in Joeys mind.

You would think he could. *Here, I picture someone furiously shaking a piggy bank upside down* One would have to wonder, where's his money going? Why am I having to buy his family groceries, pay their rent?

 

[Force Ten]

Actually we do now know that there are DNA profiles found on specific items in the graves that are those of 3 males and one female-none of which match any of the victims or Chase.

Nor may they be a match to the actual crimes. This was also stated in opening statements and so far hasn't been entered into evidence that we know of.

 

[Bernina]

Actually we do now know that there are DNA profiles found on specific items in the graves that are those of 3 males and one female-none of which match any of the victims or Chase.

NO, we don't KNOW, it was claimed by the defense in opening statements. that is not testimony or evidence

 

[mrjitty]

NO, we don't KNOW, it was claimed by the defense in opening statements. that is not testimony or evidence

Amazing how this will be the DNA of "the real killers" yet everything else is transfer DNA

 

[mrjitty]

This is the defence submission in every DNA case now

Contamination! Transfer DNA!

I mean in what circumstances will the defence not allege this?

It got a bit late to make a proper reasoned argument on the above. However I think we have to be careful with defence arguments about DNA in recent famous cases, and how they might apply to the current case.

For example in Holzclaw, the perp was identified by victims, and there was also significant circumstantial evidence against him. DNA was just part of the circumstantial mix. But according to the miscarriage of justice crowd, DNA transfer is the key to a gross miscarriage of justice. Critically these people never offer evidence that transfer actually happened in this specific instance. At close inspection it is merely a way of explaining away forensics.

So that is the nub of the issue in the McStay case. Transfer can be offered up as a way to explain away a key circumstantial foundation of the case. But that is far from the defense actually showing transfer really happened. If we want to say we can't rely on the DNA in this case, then it seems to me that transfer can be invoked in almost any situation where it would be technically possible.

transfer is hardly the only battleground either. e.g contamination, low copy number etc

So in general I am quite suspicious of the defence arguments about transfer, because it is not something they will actually prove, unless they 100% rule out that Chase ever drove the vehicle.

 

[Niner]

Tuesday, February 19th:
*Trial continues (Day 20) (@ 9:30am PT) - CA - McStay Family: Joseph (40), Summer (43), Gianni (4) & Joey Jr (3) (Feb. 4, 2010, Fallbrook; found Nov. 11, 2013) - *Charles "Chase" Ray Merritt (57/now 60) arrested (11/5/14) & indicted (11/7/14) of 4 counts of murder with special circumstance; plead not guilty. DP case.
12 jurors & 6 alternates were finalized on Tuesday (12/11/18). 8 women & 4 men, while the alternates include 4 men & 2 women. Trial started 1/7/19. Dark on Fridays.
Skipping Day 1 (1/7/19) thru 6 (1/15/19) – reference post #1180 here: CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #2
Skipping Day 7 (1/16/19) thru 11 (1/24/19) – reference post #1119 here: CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #3
Skipping Day 12 (1/28/19) thru 14 (1/31/19) - Reference post #217 here: CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #5
Skipping Day 15 (2/5/19) thru 17 (2/7/19) - reference post #648 here: CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #6
2/13/19 Day 18: State witnesses: Detective Jason Schroeder continues his testimony from last Thursday, under cross examination. He analyzed two McStay computers, Merritt's iPhone & a computer from Merritt. After lunch, attorneys are arguing over a QuickBooks witness, records. Michael West, works for Intuit. Sgt. Ryan Smith being recalled. Trial starts at 11am, a juror has an appointment, continues on 2/14.
2/14/19 Day 19: Arguments without jury present. Judge will allow the State to put on the evidence with regards to closeup photos of tire tracks, inquiries about U.S. borders, references to changing identity, & screenshot of Joseph McStay's contacts & cell phone records. State witnesses: Detective Dan Hanke (testifying about the Feb 8 & 9 calls made to QuickBooks). Ran out of witnesses ended at about 3:15pm. Next court date is Tuesday, 2/19.

 

[mrjitty]

I think I can answer your question: The typed checks that we have seen are pre-printed checks which show EIP info, and the bank info (routing number & account number). When you create the QB check, the only info printed to the check is the recipient (Chase) and the amount. One only needs to get their hands on the checks, then either hand write the recipient name and amount, use a typewriter, or print with a QB format. The checks are ordered and formatted to QB specifications. One of the exhibits show the check info, but the caption says print set up, and shows the format dimensions. There was also a search for microsoft office templates. It would appear that the person attempting to print checks ran into difficulty with the print format, and looked for a check template on ms office.
imo.

I remember this from the olden days in corporate land

The company had preprinted cheques in a big stack on pre-perforated paper - so the accounts guys would print dozens at once. You picked up the ones for your transactions and then had to go get them signed by authorised signatories. All of the colour, account name and account numbers was pre-printed.

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks! I'm curious to know if any more were found in Joey's office? And what numbers they were. If Joey printed the cheques himself, using a Word template, he may have only printed so many at a time.

The search for the microsoft office templates was clicked on, on the 8th, however... I think it was from "search history", will have to wait to see some testimony from the experts. I don't believe it was something that someone physically typed in. JMO

Prosecution opening speech said the top cheque (presumably unused) in Joey's office was #4245. So that seems to answer one of your questions - the cheque numbers are pre-printed on the cheques.

 

[mrjitty]

Wasn't there a picture in evidence during testimony that was a chair, in the office, with blank checks/check stock on it?

Yes - Tortoise in the meister on this stuff - but I think T was waiting on some more evidence re cheque numbers

 

[mrjitty]

The "DNA from the graves" was proffered in the defense's OS. Opening statements AREN'T TESTIMONY OR EVIDENCE. Some of it is just to sway or inflame the jury before witnesses even hit the stand or evidence is offered. Many of us have seen or experienced it.
The defense claimed they'd have the DNA results by the end of the week, if I recall*someone correct me if I'm wrong*. If anything HAD been found, they would have had to disclose the results to the prosecution. Th defense made this statement on 1/7...................and it's now 2/18. DNA analysis can take as little as 24 hours with a match to DNA related to the case, 14 days if it's run through all conceivable data bases to get an ID.

Another "rabbit hole" in my opinion.

Yes - be interesting to know the specifics of this

My guess is that unknown DNA must be that of "the real killers" - and DK will not be in any police database

 

[mrjitty]

Prosecution opening speech said the top cheque (presumably unused) in Joey's office was #4245. So that seems to answer one of your questions - the cheque numbers are pre-printed on the cheques.

I was getting excited about this a couple of nights ago but then forgot about it

IMO the missing blanks is a far bigger problem for the defence than we realise.

it is proven Chase created cheques with certain numbers, but not from the McStay computers. So he had blanks, which are a different sequence than the ones at Joey's house.

So why have the defence not produced those blanks into evidence?

Did chase lose them or throw them away in the intervening years? (Testimony required) or did he destroy evidence?

If Chase was authorised to create the cheques, it seems rather odd he would have thrown away key evidence

 

[Funky funky]

I’d like to know if any other DNA apart from Chase’s was found in the trooper? Was the trooper ‘clean’ apart from his DNA? Was any of the family’s DNA found or just Chase’s? Does anyone know? TIA

 

[Tortoise]

Good question. Why didn't he do so before Joey went missing? Why did he do so right after? Maybe he had a new wad of cash in his bank account to gamble with, that he didnt have previously?

Again, this is Joe Sequeida's testimony on Chase' gambling before Joey's murder:


"He had mentioned to me several times of frequenting the gambling facilities, he also referenced a cowboy hat that he used to wear and how they there was some name he went by that...

Def: Objection – Non-responsive

Judge: Overruled

P: And because of this you personally had to step up and do a lot of the work?

DJS: In order for us yes for these units to get shipped and for us to get paid I started doing a lot of the plumbing, if it was a basic electrical I would do otherwise my uncle was more electrical savvy."

 

[Tortoise]

I was getting excited about this a couple of nights ago but then forgot about it

IMO the missing blanks is a far bigger problem for the defence than we realise.

it is proven Chase created cheques with certain numbers, but not from the McStay computers. So he had blanks, which are a different sequence than the ones at Joey's house.

So why have the defence not produced those blanks into evidence?

Did chase lose them or throw them away in the intervening years? (Testimony required) or did he destroy evidence?

If Chase was authorised to create the cheques, it seems rather odd he would have thrown away key evidence

I still haven't watched the latest testimony uploaded on YT. I'm doing that today hopefully.

But the little bit of information I have seen so far from skipping through the video quickly is that on the 5th Chase printed the following cheque numbers in this order:

Times given are the times of creating the cheques.

12.06 pm....#4237....chase merritt

12.21 pm....#4236....metro sheet metal

12.25 pm....#4238....metro sheet metal

So he wasn't creating them in serial number sequence.


Remember Joey's top cheque number in the box in his office was #4245.

It would be strange for Joey to delve into his box of cheques and take out cheques from the middle of his stock, and not take from the top, if Chase is alleging that these were signed/unsigned blanks that Joey gave him on the 4th.

It rather looks as if these were taken from the box so that Joey would not notice anything amiss if he went to print a cheque and the top cheque in the box did not match the next number in sequence pre-filled on the QB screen. It's just a guess, but then at some point Joey would get down to the missing cheques and know about it then, in the same way that he would see cheques clearing his bank account that weren't cheques he'd issued on QB. It's a real head-scratcher as to what Chase' plan was when all this was going to be discovered by Joey.

I have actually wondered if he was originally trying to frame Sequeida for the cheque theft/fraud. Because he knew Sequeida was starting to have arguments with Joey about money outstanding and wanting a bigger percentage. It could be a reason as to why he had to get these two cheques for Metro into their hands ASAP after the murders. I have to think as to why, if this was his plan, it quickly folded and he resorted to trying to get QB to delete everything on their servers.

 

[Tortoise]

I’d like to know if any other DNA apart from Chase’s was found in the trooper? Was the trooper ‘clean’ apart from his DNA? Was any of the family’s DNA found or just Chase’s? Does anyone know? TIA

They say Summer's was found per the Pros Opening:

They compare the values of the locations of the known sample with the values of the locations on the steering wheel, from the swabs from the steering wheel, they were able to obtain a mixture of individuals on the steering wheel.

The mixture when you look at the quantity or the amount of DNA was primarily Joseph, because he was the driver, it matched him, there was a trace small contributor of Summer, and a minor contributor of the defendant. The possibility of finding that profile at random in the population is 1 in 850 million.

They didn’t get any results from the driver’s side panel, they got some results, the numbers are not 1 in 850 million but there is some suggestion on the gearshift and on the radio controls air conditioning controls on the panel in the Trooper.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/opening-statements.413276/

 

[mrjitty]

So he wasn't creating them in serial number sequence.

Cheers T

But he does appear to have had a sequential set of cheques - in theory running up to #4244

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Duplicate post.