Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen getting into taxi outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #9 *ARREST*

[Officer Dibble]

A what???

I googled it because I really didn't want to ask, but all I came up with is a shopping bag

Think micro shopping bag with no handles

 

[Strontium69]

And LucyRocket asked "What is a 'drain'?"

Police have been described in the press on a few occasions as 'searching drains'.

Hull and the surrounding countryside is criss-crossed with theses 'drains'. They are more like rivers, but they are basically man-made drainage channels that drain the entire half of this county, the area know as the Plains of Holderness, and drain the fields. They all end up at a natural river, and eventually the sea.

One of these drains runs behind where Libby's house is on Wellesley Avenue.

Here Police are on the EAST bank of the BEVERLEY AND BARMSTON DRAIN looking across to the rear of Libby's House.

Here, early on Police are searching the DRAINS near Libby's house...

Also, confusingly, here are Police searching the DRAINS near Libby's house...

Also, in the last few days, Police have been searching DRAINS in and around the Croda fence in the wooded part of the park

 

[Strontium69]

Not much, but we've started to refer to someone being 'running man' now and it's all reminding me of the Corrie Mckeague case. I fear we'll be chasing our own tales, arguing and getting paranoid soon unless there are any further developments.

Interestingly Police have expanded their search to the North of the Park;

I don't understand why PR's alleged crimes followed a pattern and occurred around The Piper and his home. And yet he decided to flash on Wellesley Av, far from another club, his home and 2 weeks before LS vanishes.

I have pondered on this... it's likely Libby went to Piper, it's very much a student place like Welly. Perhaps he has encountered Libby or some of her friends and that put Wellesley Avenue on his 'mental map'.

Had he previously used Haworth Street to park when he was offending along Wellesley 10 days previously?

Had he advanced from randomly driving around, to actually zeroing in on certain individuals? Had he previously made some form of contact with Libby, whether positive or negative?

 

[Strontium69]

Great videos, thanks for these

Is it a trick of the light or was there someone in the abandoned building doorway at around 6mins 53 seconds in? Almost looked as if they were holding something long, like a brush, then closed the door slightly?

Can you be a bit more specific? I looked at the time you stated, but that hut is the park keepers hut that is currently in use at that time?

 

[Joolz1975]

I have looked and read what I think you are talking about. It seems that some CCTV footage of two men (one with a red or orange jacket) have been suspected of been in a cemetery with spades. The commenters have connected it with the most recent CCTV where the police have asked for the four people in this to come forward.

I wonder if the police have been informed as it does seem to be a likely link in my opinion.

The man who originally posted those photos of the two guys said he had his dates wrong I think.

Also running to walk man looked like he had a high vis vest on. The other guys is more like a puffa jacket

 

[Strontium69]

Not much, but we've started to refer to someone being 'running man' now and it's all reminding me of the Corrie Mckeague case. I fear we'll be chasing our own tales, arguing and getting paranoid soon unless there are any further developments.

Interestingly Police have expanded their search to the North of the Park;

Today they were searching gardens along RIVERSDALE ROAD:
Police search neighbours' gardens in desperate hunt for missing Libby Squire | Daily Mail Online

The other day I posted a video of an exploration of the norther border of the park, which is where Police switched their search today.

2:00 It is not entirely clear from this video, I may have to go back and get photos/videos to highlight this;
BUT THIS FAR NORTHERN POINT IS OPEN TO CARS,

Which means it is possible, and always has been possible, to get a car all the way from Sutton Road Bridge right along the river bank on top of the embankment, right into the park and up to the pond. Not sure how significant that may be, but this is supposed to be inaccessible to cars, but the gates are in bad repair at that far northern tip.

(1) The first part of the video I give a view of this entrance and a vista of the park from this far North Western entrance.
(2) 2:00+ I leave Sutton Road at the Bridge, and follow the bank to the park.
3:40 Pedestrian steps that lead down to the end of SILVERDALE ROAD, the one next to RIVERSDALE ROAD.

the line in red shows the route ACCESSIBLE BY CAR.

I had previously discounted this part of the park, until I examined it for his video, and found it to be easily accessible by car.

Interestingly, this is where the Police have been searching today.

RIVERSDALE ROAD is the road that forms the NORTHERN Boundary of the park, and ends at the River.

 

[Strontium69]

New CCTV appeal in Libby Squire search
[/QUOTE]The grainy footage shows the individuals on Oak Road near the junction with Clough Road between about 01:15 and 02:30.

One person is seen running, a cyclist is pictured twice in the space of ten minutes and two people are seen walking together.[/QUOTE]

I'm just catching up with this footage.

It is a shame that we don't have the full footage so we know what the interval is between the running/walking man in orange hivis and the cyclist with a white hat.

It certainly looks like he comes from Oak Road at a run, slows to a normal quick walk, and is looking behind him. Looks like a 'man' rather than a 'kid'.

Why did the cyclist return after ten minutes? A 5 minute round cycle takes in quite a lot of the city at that time of night, but certainly Newland is within 5 minutes of Oak Road.

I would always suggest blokes at this time of night using that part of the path, particularly on bike or in hivis would be going to work, somewhere in Stoneferry/Bankside perhaps.

HOWEVER the fact that his behaviour does not seem like a man just walking to work...

Is there any connection between the cyclist with the white hat and the 1of2 people with a white hat? I wondered if it was the same person, because a white hat is a lot more rare than a dark one. But he has different coloured legs - he is black when ion the bike, grey when walking. Is it possible he had on dark coloured over-leggings? I was out myself on the bike around that time of winter 3 weeks ago and I had a pair of fluorescent waterproof leggings, that are easy to slip off. Was he wearing a pair that he slipped off later for some reason and was now walking? Or are they unconnected?

The timings, which are missing from the video, are crucial. If the first running/walking man and the cyclist followed each other quite closely, then that means there was about an hour gap until then two people went passed walking together.

ADDITIONALLY:
Why have the Police released this video and declared the time as between 1:15 and 2:30am?

Libby left the bench at around 12:09

That must mean that the window for her entering the park would be pretty much a minute or two after that time.

DOES THAT MEAN THAT THERE WERE NO OTHER PEOPLE ALONG OAK ROAD CAPTURED BY THE CRODA CAMERA FROM 12:15 UNTIL THE FIRST RUNNING/WALKING MAN AT ABOUT 1:15?

Otherwise surely they would also be looking for anyone who went by between 12:15 and 1:15, so that must mean that path was empty for that entire hour, at least at the end that Croda could see?

From this CCTV release, and the Police searching Riversdale Road today, I have a very strong suspicion that they have at least ONE CLUE that leads them to the park.

Early on we did see forensics leaving with evidence bags from around the abandoned boathouse, the grass area between there and the skate park, and also photographing a bench in that area.

Let's not forget that those first few days was icy with a covering of snow. I remember how crispy it was, does that actually mean against intuity, that it was actually harder to detect tracks when it is hard and icy with only a light dusting on top? It wasn't deep, and it wasn't really leaving footprints when walking because it was so frozen, and it certainly wasn't snow angel type of snow?

Has the snow/ice, and it's subsequent melting, actually by a fluke covered any footprints or tire tracks that may have been left otherwise if it was just it's normal muddy surface all over the park?

The hard frozen ice failed to yield any footprints, even definitive tire tracks, and also protected the ground underneath from being marked??

It just seems they are so sure about that park, but at this stage they seem to be throwing a dart at a big map when choosing where to search. It's as if all clues lead into the park and then it goes utterly cold.

I really think a freak of the weather has stumped the Police, they would have expected to have found some kind of physical trace, but the ice has prevented that, so they don't know where to start?

 

[Joolz1975]

New CCTV appeal in Libby Squire search

The grainy footage shows the individuals on Oak Road near the junction with Clough Road between about 01:15 and 02:30.

One person is seen running, a cyclist is pictured twice in the space of ten minutes and two people are seen walking together.[/QUOTE]

I'm just catching up with this footage.

It is a shame that we don't have the full footage so we know what the interval is between the running/walking man in orange hivis and the cyclist with a white hat.

It certainly looks like he comes from Oak Road at a run, slows to a normal quick walk, and is looking behind him. Looks like a 'man' rather than a 'kid'.

Why did the cyclist return after ten minutes? A 5 minute round cycle takes in quite a lot of the city at that time of night, but certainly Newland is within 5 minutes of Oak Road.

I would always suggest blokes at this time of night using that part of the path, particularly on bike or in hivis would be going to work, somewhere in Stoneferry/Bankside perhaps.

HOWEVER the fact that his behaviour does not seem like a man just walking to work...

Is there any connection between the cyclist with the white hat and the 1of2 people with a white hat? I wondered if it was the same person, because a white hat is a lot more rare than a dark one. But he has different coloured legs - he is black when ion the bike, grey when walking. Is it possible he had on dark coloured over-leggings? I was out myself on the bike around that time of winter 3 weeks ago and I had a pair of fluorescent waterproof leggings, that are easy to slip off. Was he wearing a pair that he slipped off later for some reason and was now walking? Or are they unconnected?

The timings, which are missing from the video, are crucial. If the first running/walking man and the cyclist followed each other quite closely, then that means there was about an hour gap until then two people went passed walking together.

ADDITIONALLY:
Why have the Police released this video and declared the time as between 1:15 and 2:30am?

Libby left the bench at around 12:09

That must mean that the window for her entering the park would be pretty much a minute or two after that time.

DOES THAT MEAN THAT THERE WERE NO OTHER PEOPLE ALONG OAK ROAD CAPTURED BY THE CRODA CAMERA FROM 12:15 UNTIL THE FIRST RUNNING/WALKING MAN AT ABOUT 1:15?

Otherwise surely they would also be looking for anyone who went by between 12:15 and 1:15, so that must mean that path was empty for that entire hour, at least at the end that Croda could see?

From this CCTV release, and the Police searching Riversdale Road today, I have a very strong suspicion that they have at least ONE CLUE that leads them to the park.

Early on we did see forensics leaving with evidence bags from around the abandoned boathouse, the grass area between there and the skate park, and also photographing a bench in that area.

Let's not forget that those first few days was icy with a covering of snow. I remember how crispy it was, does that actually mean against intuity, that it was actually harder to detect tracks when it is hard and icy with only a light dusting on top? It wasn't deep, and it wasn't really leaving footprints when walking because it was so frozen, and it certainly wasn't snow angel type of snow?

Has the snow/ice, and it's subsequent melting, actually by a fluke covered any footprints or tire tracks that may have been left otherwise if it was just it's normal muddy surface all over the park?

The hard frozen ice failed to yield any footprints, even definitive tire tracks, and also protected the ground underneath from being marked??

It just seems they are so sure about that park, but at this stage they seem to be throwing a dart at a big map when choosing where to search. It's as if all clues lead into the park and then it goes utterly cold.

I really think a freak of the weather has stumped the Police, they would have expected to have found some kind of physical trace, but the ice has prevented that, so they don't know where to start?[/QUOTE]

I think we are under the impression that the cyclist came forward as I think the appeal has now changed to looking for the 3 men on foot?

I have not seen the updated appeal myself but others have said they are now looking for 3 people.

Excellent work by the way, your videos really give us non locals a feel for he area.

 

[Joolz1975]

Not sure why my quoting went so wrong there.

 

[Strontium69]

Not sure why my quoting went so wrong there.

Lol might be because I had 2 sets of quotes in there to start with? I think you're missing a starting quotes somewhere!

And yes, extremely high rate of attrition notwithstanding, I am happy to oblige.

I still have so much material to get through, and am still trying to recover my laptop, which broke in sympathy with me last week also.

Am always happy to go back over areas with a camera - I have been intending to do a recce of the entire perimeter of the Croda fence.

 

[yoyo1]

If PR does drive Libby to oak road park and the car park was locked what is he going to do, where is he going to park ?
Imo the obvious answer is the short stretch of road before the bollards on oak road or possibly even better would be the alley that runs along the back of Claremont Avenue parallel to oak road leading to the allotments, it dosnt appear to be gated. Could it have been a claremont resident who heard screams and saw running man .
Anyway if PR did park up here and something bad happened resulting in him having a body on his hands either he drove away with it in the car or he disposed of it locally. Theres loads of places he could have stashed her temporarily if he intended to come back for her so its possible she isnt even that well hidden , between some sheds under a load of rubbish etc and as things transpired he never got a chance to come back and get her , or maybe he did find an out of the way spot where unless theres a specific search of the area made she will never be found , except by foxes.
But presumably the police have used dogs to search the entire area and have not found her so the definitive answer must be that she simply isnt there.

 

[Strontium69]

If PR does drive Libby to oak road park and the car park was locked what is he going to do, where is he going to park ?
Imo the obvious answer is the short stretch of road before the bollards on oak road or possibly even better would be the alley that runs along the back of Claremont Avenue parallel to oak road leading to the allotments, it dosnt appear to be gated. Could it have been a claremont resident who heard screams and saw running man .
Anyway if PR did park up here and something bad happened resulting in him having a body on his hands either he drove away with it in the car or he disposed of it locally. Theres loads of places he could have stashed her temporarily if he intended to come back for her so its possible she isnt even that well hidden , between some sheds under a load of rubbish etc and as things transpired he never got a chance to come back and get her , or maybe he did find an out of the way spot where unless theres a specific search of the area made she will never be found , except by foxes.
But presumably the police have used dogs to search the entire area and have not found her so the definitive answer must be that she simply isnt there.

Here is how I have played it over in my mind...

* Somehow he picks her up from the bench and persuades her into his car...
* Has he persuaded her to sit in his car for half an hour or so, and then try her door again see if any of her friends are home yet? If it's midnight, she may still have up to 3 hours until her friends start arriving home. She said no to Greybeard... so why has she said yes to PR? Because he's a similar age? Maybe. Because he is a 'familiar' face to her? Possibly? At this point there is no reason to suggest she has had any negative interaction with PR previously. maybe he has made an effort to introduce himself favourably to her in the previous weeks?
* He has previously escalated form voyeurism, a mainly passive activity, to burglary with a sexual motive, which is a definitive escalation from a passive pursuit to one requiring some planning and covering of tracks, with a recognition of carrying out a criminal activity, and the pathological dissociation from 'normal society' when carrying out the escalated offences.
* He has planned this escalation. He has scouted Newland Avenue, and he has targeted these particular streets, possibly previously noting Libby and/or her friends. Does he already know where she lives?
* He persuades her into his car - just to sit for half an hour out of the cold, to wait for her friends; he shows her photos of his wife and kids.
(* They drive to her front door, to try the door, there is no one in;
* She gets back in the car)
-OR-
* He drives along Beresford past the corner with Wellesley... how is she feeling? Is she okay with this? He has put the heating on high, she is feeling sleepy; has he given her something to drink? More alcohol? A soft drink with a drug in it? She is not concerned, maybe she hasn't fully noticed, she' still very drunk.
* They drive into the car park at the end of Beresford Avenue, (1) where it becomes part of Oak Road. It is well lit here, they park up; LS is not concerned; he's friendly but not pushy, this area is well lit; they are going to sit and wait for her friends, she can stay warm, he has drink etc
* He has a phone... does she not know any of her friend's numbers??
* Somehow, despite -5 degrees outside, he persuades her too go for a walk into the park. Is she like other students who have lived in those streets but been largely aware of this park? Is she intrigued and curious. This area was well lit, it was a half moon?
* They walk (the red dotted line) in via the furthest pedestrian entrance; she is compliant because she is drunk? she is drugged? She is drugged/drunk enough to be led?
* They follow the 'path' for a few dozen yards. The path cannot be seen... it is covered in ice and a dusting of snow.
* They sit on the bench (2) and talk for a while. He is now in the realisation that all his plans have come to fruition so far; LS has compliantly got into his car and come this far, possibly with the aid of drug inducement; it now or never; LS is getting cold again.
* Does he try to force himself on her at this bench? She screams and runs off in the direction of house lights; she slips and falls; he catches up with her;
- OR -
* She is getting cold and gets up to go back to the car; he realises his chance is slipping away as she does not seem interested, only in possible companionship, but not sex. So she gets up, he is now mentally trying to figure out what to do, has he missed his chance, when they get back to the car will she want to go home or sit in the car for a bit longer where he may have another chance? But she has not accepted his advances, so he doesn't want to force her in the car under the bright lights...
* So as they walk back, he starts to get physical with her, she fights him off, and runs, screams, slips/falls.
* It is also possible PR was taking drugs himself, which induced added bravado and sexual impetus; he is physically and sexually assault LS, and she is fighting and she screams for a second time.
* PR puts a hand across her mouth to stop her from screaming...
* LS passes out... PR does not stop...
* PR does eventually stop, gets up and panics; there is no blood, but LS is lifeless; he runs from the scene back to his car and drives around for 5-10 minutes in panic and confusion. He phones someone. Another man, possibly 2, join PR in the park with a second vehicle...
???

The shaded area is where the screams were heard and the running man seen; from the house in the park??

So far that is how I have pictured events... what is for me the biggest batch of question marks, is what then happened? What has happened to Libby? I have little doubt that she is unfortunately long dead, but without any trace at all?

 

[Audiohoney]

He phones someone. Another man, possibly 2, join PR in the park with a second vehicle...
???

The shaded area is where the screams were heard and the running man seen; from the house in the park??

So far that is how I have pictured events... what is for me the biggest batch of question marks, is what then happened? What has happened to Libby? I have little doubt that she is unfortunately long dead, but without any trace at all?

Strontium I can definitely envisage much of what you summise might have happened. Up until ‘he phones someone’ who do you phone? And what do you say? Ermm I think I just accidentally raped and killed someone. Plus then to persuade that person to not only keep quiet, but to be complicit in helping you dispose of a body and cover up the crime - I just can’t see it. Unless somebody was involved with him from the start and got something out of it, I can’t see him risk asking someone to help.

I do think the cold and icy ground has helped him cover his tracks. In my mind this was his first serious offence, he might already have played it over in his mind, a set of unfortunate circumstances led to LS being his victim and a series of good fortune (for him) has led to little or no evidence being found. It still doesn’t answer where LS body is of course.

I think his phone pings put him at the park and he returned home at 3am with his phone not having pinged elsewhere. Hence police search efforts rarely moving far from that park. JMO.

 

[Deleted member 238128]

Can you be a bit more specific? I looked at the time you stated, but that hut is the park keepers hut that is currently in use at that time?

Sorry, this part - have taken screen shots. Is this the park keepers hut? I had thought because of the grafitti and decay of it that it was an abandoned building. Seems to be something/ someone in doorway moving something long

 

[Newthoughts]

Strontium69 I was also wondering about PR and drugs. I wondered whether he wastaking steroids or testosterone or something related to his gym membership?

 

[Strontium69]

Strontium I can definitely envisage much of what you summise might have happened. Up until ‘he phones someone’ who do you phone? And what do you say? Ermm I think I just accidentally raped and killed someone. Plus then to persuade that person to not only keep quiet, but to be complicit in helping you dispose of a body and cover up the crime - I just can’t see it. Unless somebody was involved with him from the start and got something out of it, I can’t see him risk asking someone to help.

I do think the cold and icy ground has helped him cover his tracks. In my mind this was his first serious offence, he might already have played it over in his mind, a set of unfortunate circumstances led to LS being his victim and a series of good fortune (for him) has led to little or no evidence being found. It still doesn’t answer where LS body is of course.

I think his phone pings put him at the park and he returned home at 3am with his phone not having pinged elsewhere. Hence police search efforts rarely moving far from that park. JMO.

Yeah I know - but it's the body thing that bothers me.

If he was JUST an opportunist on an escalation into a physical assault/rape then where is her body? Unless he has managed to get her out by car... but forensics have had that car...? So if by car, a different car?

Do you see my problem? If this is the first time he has escalated this far, he grabbed an chance, and was then making it up as he went; it's one thing his tracks being covered, another thing her body being missing this long? Unless, like you say, he has gotten extremely lucky with circumstances? But how has such a young man, inexperienced with crime, managed to hold out to the Police for SO LONG without cracking?

It is a long stretch I know. PR seems like he's legit and legal, so he doesn't necessarily have to have any connections to the Polish underground in Hull/UK, but he may be 'taxed' by them after he arrived?

I have looked into the Sutcliffe case a little, and I'm of the believe that if Sutcliffe would have owned a mobile phone at the time, he would have phoned someone just after, his 'handler'; but then again he already had a handler before he started.

The start of this case reads like a lone sexual opportunist, the end reads like an accomplice was involved. An accomplice who already knew what they were doing with criminal activity. And someone PR already knew as someone to turn to for criminal activity??

 

[Strontium69]

Sorry, this part - have taken screen shots. Is this the park keepers hut? I had thought because of the grafitti and decay of it that it was an abandoned building. Seems to be something/ someone in doorway moving something long

Ah no - I get what you mean, just the time you gave in the video is a completely different building!

I'll check again, but I went in there...!

 

[yoyo1]

Here is how I have played it over in my mind...

* Somehow he picks her up from the bench and persuades her into his car...
* Has he persuaded her to sit in his car for half an hour or so, and then try her door again see if any of her friends are home yet? If it's midnight, she may still have up to 3 hours until her friends start arriving home. She said no to Greybeard... so why has she said yes to PR? Because he's a similar age? Maybe. Because he is a 'familiar' face to her? Possibly? At this point there is no reason to suggest she has had any negative interaction with PR previously. maybe he has made an effort to introduce himself favourably to her in the previous weeks?
* He has previously escalated form voyeurism, a mainly passive activity, to burglary with a sexual motive, which is a definitive escalation from a passive pursuit to one requiring some planning and covering of tracks, with a recognition of carrying out a criminal activity, and the pathological dissociation from 'normal society' when carrying out the escalated offences.
* He has planned this escalation. He has scouted Newland Avenue, and he has targeted these particular streets, possibly previously noting Libby and/or her friends. Does he already know where she lives?
* He persuades her into his car - just to sit for half an hour out of the cold, to wait for her friends; he shows her photos of his wife and kids.
(* They drive to her front door, to try the door, there is no one in;
* She gets back in the car)
-OR-
* He drives along Beresford past the corner with Wellesley... how is she feeling? Is she okay with this? He has put the heating on high, she is feeling sleepy; has he given her something to drink? More alcohol? A soft drink with a drug in it? She is not concerned, maybe she hasn't fully noticed, she' still very drunk.
* They drive into the car park at the end of Beresford Avenue, (1) where it becomes part of Oak Road. It is well lit here, they park up; LS is not concerned; he's friendly but not pushy, this area is well lit; they are going to sit and wait for her friends, she can stay warm, he has drink etc
* He has a phone... does she not know any of her friend's numbers??
* Somehow, despite -5 degrees outside, he persuades her too go for a walk into the park. Is she like other students who have lived in those streets but been largely aware of this park? Is she intrigued and curious. This area was well lit, it was a half moon?
* They walk (the red dotted line) in via the furthest pedestrian entrance; she is compliant because she is drunk? she is drugged? She is drugged/drunk enough to be led?
* They follow the 'path' for a few dozen yards. The path cannot be seen... it is covered in ice and a dusting of snow.
* They sit on the bench (2) and talk for a while. He is now in the realisation that all his plans have come to fruition so far; LS has compliantly got into his car and come this far, possibly with the aid of drug inducement; it now or never; LS is getting cold again.
* Does he try to force himself on her at this bench? She screams and runs off in the direction of house lights; she slips and falls; he catches up with her;
- OR -
* She is getting cold and gets up to go back to the car; he realises his chance is slipping away as she does not seem interested, only in possible companionship, but not sex. So she gets up, he is now mentally trying to figure out what to do, has he missed his chance, when they get back to the car will she want to go home or sit in the car for a bit longer where he may have another chance? But she has not accepted his advances, so he doesn't want to force her in the car under the bright lights...
* So as they walk back, he starts to get physical with her, she fights him off, and runs, screams, slips/falls.
* It is also possible PR was taking drugs himself, which induced added bravado and sexual impetus; he is physically and sexually assault LS, and she is fighting and she screams for a second time.
* PR puts a hand across her mouth to stop her from screaming...
* LS passes out... PR does not stop...
* PR does eventually stop, gets up and panics; there is no blood, but LS is lifeless; he runs from the scene back to his car and drives around for 5-10 minutes in panic and confusion. He phones someone. Another man, possibly 2, join PR in the park with a second vehicle...
???

The shaded area is where the screams were heard and the running man seen; from the house in the park??

So far that is how I have pictured events... what is for me the biggest batch of question marks, is what then happened? What has happened to Libby? I have little doubt that she is unfortunately long dead, but without any trace at all?

Yeh i feel his "pathological dissociation from 'normal society'" as his unusual preoccupations drew him deeper and deeper into a shadowy twighlight world all of his own.
Query - it has been reported that the oak road park park would have been locked , so he would have had to find somewhere else to park up. By Scootermuppet iirc.
Very difficult to imagine how an assault would have played out , i guess he might have taken her into the park but personally i think he would have tried to get his way amicably at first in the car , if things had turned ugly then he might have felt compelled to physically subdue her and then , either alive or dead , get her away from the car somewhere dark. I can even imagine him not actually sexually assaulting her at all , apart from in a voyeuristic fashion.
Or he may have stowed her in the car and moved her elsewhere , he is reported to have been cleaning his car soon afterwards , i wonder if cadaver dogs would still detect a corpse in a recently cleaned vehicle , im assuming they would.

 

[alfiedug]

Yeah I know - but it's the body thing that bothers me.

If he was JUST an opportunist on an escalation into a physical assault/rape then where is her body? Unless he has managed to get her out by car... but forensics have had that car...? So if by car, a different car?

Do you see my problem? If this is the first time he has escalated this far, he grabbed an chance, and was then making it up as he went; it's one thing his tracks being covered, another thing her body being missing this long? Unless, like you say, he has gotten extremely lucky with circumstances? But how has such a young man, inexperienced with crime, managed to hold out to the Police for SO LONG without cracking?

It is a long stretch I know. PR seems like he's legit and legal, so he doesn't necessarily have to have any connections to the Polish underground in Hull/UK, but he may be 'taxed' by them after he arrived?

I have looked into the Sutcliffe case a little, and I'm of the believe that if Sutcliffe would have owned a mobile phone at the time, he would have phoned someone just after, his 'handler'; but then again he already had a handler before he started.

The start of this case reads like a lone sexual opportunist, the end reads like an accomplice was involved. An accomplice who already knew what they were doing with criminal activity. And someone PR already knew as someone to turn to for criminal activity??

Yeah I know - but it's the body thing that bothers me.

If he was JUST an opportunist on an escalation into a physical assault/rape then where is her body? Unless he has managed to get her out by car... but forensics have had that car...? So if by car, a different car? Thoughts could this be they same man as Haworth ?

Do you see my problem? If this is the first time he has escalated this far, he grabbed an chance, and was then making it up as he went; it's one thing his tracks being covered, another thing her body being missing this long? Unless, like you say, he has gotten extremely lucky with circumstances? But how has such a young man, inexperienced with crime, managed to hold out to the Police for SO LONG without cracking?

It is a long stretch I know. PR seems like he's legit and legal, so he doesn't necessarily have to have any connections to the Polish underground in Hull/UK, but he may be 'taxed' by them after he arrived?

I have looked into the Sutcliffe case a little, and I'm of the believe that if Sutcliffe would have owned a mobile phone at the time, he would have phoned someone just after, his 'handler'; but then again he already had a handler before he started.

The start of this case reads like a lone sexual opportunist, the end reads like an accomplice was involved. An accomplice who already knew what they were doing with criminal activity. And someone PR already knew as someone to turn to for criminal activity??

 

[Audiohoney]

Yeah I know - but it's the body thing that bothers me.

If he was JUST an opportunist on an escalation into a physical assault/rape then where is her body? Unless he has managed to get her out by car... but forensics have had that car...? So if by car, a different car?

Do you see my problem? If this is the first time he has escalated this far, he grabbed an chance, and was then making it up as he went; it's one thing his tracks being covered, another thing her body being missing this long? Unless, like you say, he has gotten extremely lucky with circumstances? But how has such a young man, inexperienced with crime, managed to hold out to the Police for SO LONG without cracking?

It is a long stretch I know. PR seems like he's legit and legal, so he doesn't necessarily have to have any connections to the Polish underground in Hull/UK, but he may be 'taxed' by them after he arrived?

I have looked into the Sutcliffe case a little, and I'm of the believe that if Sutcliffe would have owned a mobile phone at the time, he would have phoned someone just after, his 'handler'; but then again he already had a handler before he started.

The start of this case reads like a lone sexual opportunist, the end reads like an accomplice was involved. An accomplice who already knew what they were doing with criminal activity. And someone PR already knew as someone to turn to for criminal activity??

Hmmm ... I do see where you’re coming from and underground connections are certainly a possibility. In that kind of network he could seek help. And you’re right, the scenario does seem to run from opportunistic ‘luck’ to accomplished concealment of a crime. But I’m still putting that down to good fortune on his part. The weather / the dark / the location. Sadly I think she’s in the water and that it’s simply such a vast a search area, her body has not yet been found.

I do think the language barrier falls in his favour where confession under pressure is concerned. If he were able to stick to his story during the early part of the interrogation and with that process maybe being slower than usually (allowing for translation) he perhaps built up the confidence to believe they were not going to pin this on him. After all, he’d only have to answer ‘no comment’ or stick to his story of dropping a tearful girl at home. Now that it’s been a few weeks and still no charges - where this case is concerned at least - I should imagine he’s feeling quite invincible.