GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #70

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Cindy (along with her daughter) was relentless and no one can tell me this was not a contributing factor. From not sending engagement party invites to refusal to attend their own sons wedding to Nutgate, it was just a long campaign to destroy that marriage from the get go.

She’s so relentless that when CW wasn’t initially talking to her after Nutgate, she rang his childhood friend, who then rang CW.

WHO DOES THAT?! She badgered into CW’s head that SW was trash until finally he believed it too. Enough that he murdered her and threw her body in a hole face down like the trash his family always said she was.

CW is responsible for these murders, but there are definitely contributing factors here. The affair, the mother, the sister, his psychopathy or whatever the hell is wrong with him, all factors that met up in tipping this monster into the abyss, a perfect storm. Four beautiful lives extinguished forever, and countless more devastated and destroyed.

And as if that wasn’t enough for them all, they continue to trash her in death, marrying up with depraved souls all over the internet to further their mission.

It’s evil.
We should all have to spend a week with our potential in-laws, before marriage, trapped in a really small space under adverse conditions!

I'm not giving Chris the Mommy excuse. Granted it looks like I missed the worst of the Watts, (Thankfully!), but if "in-law hate" created murderers, I'd be dead now. My in-laws thought that I was totally against them because children complicate things. I had a lot of ( I felt, valid), concerns about their care of my children when they were very small, and I didn't let them baby sit, or have the kid's overnight because their lack of common sense was alarming. There is no "nice" way to say, " Don't feed my two month old infant chocolate you moron!" Or "please don't let your drunk neighbor, who we all know is "A Nice Man" pick up my toddler...

The talked a lot of Chit about me, and were a factor in the divorce, but not the cause of it, (but now, my ex, to whom I've always remained close, doesn't want out daughter around them either lol!), but he didn't KILL me.
Chris Watts is what he is and the pressures he felt are impossible to understand from a normal vantage point, but I believe he was born without a human soul.
 
What a great podcast tonight! @gitana1 you said everything that I’ve been thinking about this case, but a lot more eloquently than I ever could have!

Yes it was. :)

@gitana1 you rock!

I feel so honored to have discussions with you. :)

Ps:
I was soooooo tempted to call in, I came “this close”!
(Couldn’t decide which voice scrambler app to use though haha)
 
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I listened to the entire recordings and have so many thoughts on this case, but my mind is overloaded. The biggest disconnect for me is listening to CW so blasé about the whole thing and trying to explain that he just didn't know what he was thinking that day. But then you think about how he was able to interact so normally with coworkers that morning. And those tv porch interviews. And he was clearly anxious and a pathetic liar and smiling inappropriately, but he was just not acting rattled. This does not fit someone who "snapped" and made a terrible mistake and was immediately freaking out over what he had done.

I don't think he had any major plan mapped out on how he was going to cover up these murders. That part I tend to believe. But - he had removed SW's wedding ring that morning and admitted doing so to stage some sort of scenario where maybe she really did want a divorce. So...

Also, his "snapping" explanation makes NO sense. Um - he's the one who told her that he didn't love her anymore. (And what a charming thing to hear right before being killed.) I could probably more believe someone "snapping" if your spouse was the one to say they didn't love you. But huh? What did he have to be "angry" at her about? "You'll never see the kids again" ? Um.... didn't he want a new life without his family? Those just don't seem like fighting words in this context. And he had a mistress. If SW "locked him out" - I mean, so what? Not ideal, but he had a place to sleep. And if he cared so much about seeing his kids, well then isn't killing his wife enough? Why kill them too? Because he was angry at SW? Again, what does he have to be angry about??

I wish our super detectives would have pressed just a little harder on "why" he killed the girls. Was it because Bella had walked into the room and then became a witness? If she hadn't, would he only have killed Shanann?

I think Mama Watts screwed him up way more than even NK did. I cannot believe she wanted his ancient sports team participation trophies back. And not anything related to her grandchildren. Well I can believe it, but oh my.

And what was all that nonsense CW was driveling about, that he didn't want to put anyone through a trial or do anything that would put Shanann in a bad light. What?? Does he have any idea the weeks and months of people actually believing his warped narrative. What his parents said in the media? I actually don't think he expected that to take on a life of its own. It doesn't sound like he stuck with that defense very long. He just said it as a throwaway that night when it was handed to him as an excuse. He also said it before he had been miranda-ized and had counsel. He and his attorneys quietly dropped that very quickly, but unfortunately it stuck. But a bit ironic to hear him claiming he didn't want to taint SW's memory.

A few other random things - they didn't pay taxes on Thrive huh? Hmmm. But, that ship has sailed. He's such an idiot. But even though he said he hated being on facebook videos and making posts, he once again sounded fine with the fact that SW did direct sales - that she was good at it, making good money with it from his perspective. Feeling awkward and uncomfortable may have been a factor, but her line of work or going off to conferences, etc didn't seem to be the the thing that bothered him. JMO from listening to him the night he was interrogated and then in the follow up interviews in Wisconsin.
Did you notice whenever they touch upon why he did this why he did that he changed the subject and he can't remember and it was like somebody was controlling him and please don't persecute me for bringing it up again but it reminded me of the mistress when she avoided questioning... that is consistent with denial=lie?!?!
 
Yes, I don't think he's the brightest bulb out there. It's eerie to see the pathology in these people. I was thinking how , if you have a husband like that and here you are, you tied your boat to his and now there's even children ---- how SW might have been inclined to excuse the oddities she would have observed, because, you know, what was she going to do? And what about the house, and the kids, and now the pregnancy....
Just saying how the system works that way around these pathologies and can perpetuate them. And then when you look back you go, oh man!

Yes. plus, she really seemed to be a family oriented woman. She put a lot into her relationships, and it's hard to give up on something you've invested SO much of yourself in, she even created a businesses that could include her family, and DIVORCE would be the the opposite to THRIVING.

She should have soared. She had the spirit and the energy! But she ran into a dark, evil roadblock. Absolutely tragic.
 
So, since he confessed, now we are moving onto conspiracy theories as an excuse for CW. The latest from the nutjob purple podperson and her minions is the murders were a sacrifice and has something to do with the mind control and the CIA:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Cmon these with these henchmen for the devil are not even worth us discussing in the same sentence as CIA and conspiracy theories!?! Lol
 
I don't want to repeat the disgusting things that were said, but it was bad enough that the Rzuceks felt compelled to issue a statement in defense of their daughter.

Chris Watts' parents break their silence
Early Tuesday morning, the parents of Shanann Watts — Frank and Sandra Rzucek — responded to the Watts' family interview. Their statement reads:

“Shanann Watts was a faithful wife, and the most gentle and loving mother in the world to her children Bella, Celeste, and Nico. She was also the best daughter any parent could ever hope for. Shanann was a wonderful soul.

Everyone who knew Shanann knows this to be true. Even Chris Watts knows this to be true. Yet Chris Watts still chose to murder Shanann, Bella, Celeste, and Nico. Chris Watts still chose to dump the bodies of his own family in oil tanks. And Chris Watts still chose to lie about it until he could lie no more. He pled (sic) guilty to murdering his family because he is guilty.

Monday evening, the parents of Chris Watts gave an interview in which they attempted to defend their son. In doing so, they felt the need to make vicious, grotesque and utterly false statements about Shanann. Their false statements, however hurtful and inaccurate, will never alter the truth about Shanann, and will never alter the truth about the crimes committed by their son, Chris Watts.

Shanann’s memory and reputation deserves to be protected. And her family is fully prepared to do so.”

I love that they chose to make this statement, and they did it with grace and compassion and honesty.

I wish I were as giving, but I fear that if I were in their shoesI would have lashed out at the Watts family until they would have bled emotionally!
 
And as far as the mistress being in Witness Protection Program I would say she never had much of a life so they put her into a mental hospital in another state and she's going to be there for a few months where maybe she'll get out and may have to change her name because she's warped from this but was also warp to begin with I don't give her enough credit to be in Witness Protection Program sorry not sorry
 
And as far as the mistress being in Witness Protection Program I would say she never had much of a life so they put her into a mental hospital in another state and she's going to be there for a few months where maybe she'll get out and may have to change her name because she's warped from this but was also warp to begin with I don't give her enough credit to be in Witness Protection Program sorry not sorry

No doubt, NK's life has been changed more than likely for the worse.

A few romps in the hay has definitely impacted her life in a negative way but at least she is alive and was not disposed of like garbage. The lives disposed of like garbage did not deserve their horrific demise.
 
I can’t diagnose him because I am not a medical professional. I can still say I think he is a psychopath. I don’t think it does the public much good if there’s some kind of total silence around that. Although armchair diagnoses get really tiresome sometimes, I think on balance it’s more valuable for people to become familiar with what it looks like when someone lacks empathy to an extreme extent, and to understand that these people can come across just like everyone else (until they don’t).

Exactly. You don't learn to keep your hand out of the fire until you realize it's hot and can hurt you.

You can't protect yourself from fire until you know what it is and learn to recognize it.
 
Re: tonight’s podcast, I thought @gitana1 ‘s thoughts on being raised by a narcissist were very interesting.


Qmfr:
DP just said “You know, I’ve been doing this 45 years, there is no category for this. This is just plain evil.”
(7:00ish / DP / March 11, 2019.)

@gitana1 had some good thoughts on this tonight, something along the lines of it’s more than this. (Very humbly paraphrasing, would never want to misquote.)

ETA: Gitana, you are every much as beautiful and bright as I thought you would be. Thanks for keeping us around. I wanted to catch you on the other (3?) podcasts but never got to, must’ve been when I was knee deep in 1960 pages of discovery documents for a month lol)
 
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I love that they chose to make this statement, and they did it with grace and compassion and honesty.

I wish I were as giving, but I fear that if I were in their shoesI would have lashed out at the Watts family until they would have bled emotionally!
But that would have made you like them, you see? Why emulate something you hate? I don't understand why they, (Watts), couldn't have just shut up! Say nothing, don't "Go There", even if they felt compelled to defend, or explain the actions of their child.
 
But that would have made you like them, you see? Why emulate something you hate? I don't understand why they, (Watts), couldn't have just shut up! Say nothing, don't "Go There", even if they felt compelled to defend, or explain the actions of their child.

Ha! Because they are the Watts.

No attack against their “golden boy,” could have gone unreciprocated.

Hell, despite his guilty plea, they still believed he was innocent of killing his kids.

He was coerced by his lawyers.

He pleaded guilty to spare his family.

I doubt that even now, after his full confession, they believe he did this.

They think he is still walking out of prison.

They will be sorely disappointed. The delusion is strong there.
 
Ha ha!!



Hmm. That's an interesting take. It could be very true.

Earlier I theorized a lot about possible, simmering rage and resentment that could've come from not having a fully formed identity, just going through the motions and living someone else's life, doing what was expected but not what he truly desired, which he could not know as he kind of didn't fully exist.

I mean you have to have an identity to really know what you want and to pick the life you want to live.

In no way do I think this cat was truly enraged or on some sort of rampage when he did this.

But I do think he dug deep down for some simmering resentment and deep anger and dissastifaction.

It was interesting when the investigators asked him if he was angry at Shanann and why. He said he was motivated by rage but he couldn't articulate why. He couldn't point to anything real that she actually did to him to upset him. I mean he also said that he killed his kids out of anger but could not explain it. Which maybe makes sense.

I think he may have felt some slight anger or really tried hard at least to drum some up. But he probably mostly felt adrenaline and excitement as he killed his wife as well. I believe him that he was shaking afterward. I don't think a pure and classic psychopath would have been.

But he calmed right back down like a snake on a rock after that and quietly and methodically loaded his car.

His anger at his parents - that's an interesting theory. Others have said the same thing. And it makes sense.

I feel he was likely annihilated by a narcissist. His description of his mother always asking him how he feels but he never expressed anything? That flat effect around one's parents is common for children of borderlines and narcissists because they can't make the wrong move and any expression of individual needs or feelings is met with annihilating rage or consumption. (Those I know who've been through this said they cannot let their parents in at all or ever tell them about their lives because the parents will use whatever they tell them).

He describes his mother as loving but she's shown herself to be anything but- ruining Shanann's bridal shower, not going to the wedding, bad mouthing her, risking her geandchildren's lives with nuts, saying savage things about her murdered daughter in law despite the utter agony it would cause Shanann's family. Making her victim statement all about showing how great her son and her family is and how she is a victim. Making it all about appearance and about her.

She's shown her character in so many ways.

So I think he's leaving a lot out. What he's described of his father and what we've heard from that man likewise shows a dysfunctional person of questionable character to me. He became a coke addict because his son got married and moved? Wth? And he continues to throw his murdered daughter in law under the bus refusing to accept reality?

What was it like being raised by them?

I recall this photo I saw of the family when Chris was little. It was in a YouTube movie about the crimes and flashed quickly on the screen. I rewinded and froze it.

Chris' sister appears much older than he. Chris was quite young. About 8-10. His father wasn't smiling much. Sort of stone faced. His mother and sister had almost identical expressions. Kind of smug, half smiles.

Then there was Chris. The little boy had a super wide and sweet smile. He was the nicest thing in the photo. The very picture of affability, innocence and niceness.

A very good boy.

I think like Scott Peterson he had to play a role in that family. He couldn't express emotion. He couldn't develop a personality.

And maybe indeed he had a simmering anger toward them as well.

It's all so horrible yet interesting to ponder.

I've watched this case because of another case coming up and wanted to see what a trial was like. I'm interested in an attorney's take is on my theory: maybe even a psychiatrist.

My belief in a nutshell. I do not think Chris Watts falls in the category of a classic sociopath. They have no remorse for things. Chris does show extreme emotion with things (and maybe it's not just a case of remorse for getting caught): sometimes the seeming lack of emotion could be an extreme emotion in and of itself. I believe in my heart of hearts that he has something similar if not the exact traits of a person with Borderline Personality Disorder. A person develops BPD in child hood and the connections for one reason or another in the brain itself do not connect like the average person without BPD. Many borderlines have a smaller hippocampus
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cited one case study:
Hippocampus and amygdala volumes in patients with borderline personality disorder with or without posttraumatic stress disorder

"Results
Hippocampus volumes of patients with BPD and PTSD were smaller than those of healthy controls. However, there was no significant difference between patients with BPD but without PTSD and controls. Impulsiveness was positively correlated with hippocampus volumes in patients with BPD."

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Cited from another source:

Low Empathy Associated with Borderline Personality Disorder

“Our results showed that people with BPD traits had reduced activity in brain regions that support empathy,” said the study’s lead author Dr. Brian Haas, an assistant professor in the Franklin College of Arts and Sciences psychology department.

“This reduced activation may suggest that people with more BPD traits have a more difficult time understanding and/or predicting how others feel, at least compared to individuals with fewer BPD traits.”
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I'm wondering if his upbringing crossed the line to where his parents treatment were beyond the threshold of that to where if he is indeed suseptable to developing BPD that it was considered a "Traumatizing Experience for him". If he indeed has a malformation to where the hippocampus volume is smaller then there might be a viable explanation to all the questions everyone is seeking with this man. People who have no clue what happens in the BORDERLINE MIND and EMOTIONS will NOT under any circumstances understand the anger and rage totally especially with that lack of empathy that is involved with the disease. I have BPD and I've experienced such a rage before that could have ended in disastrous results. The PTSD with the trauma suffered in child hood could very well have been a missed diagnosis or even today could be diagnosed by a trained professional as latent onset PTSD. Or even Latent Onset Complex PTSD.

IMHO This man had a very controlling mother who was manipulitive to the point of placing her own grandchildren in harms way just to get her way, which I will cite that she placed peanuts on a table, in which one of her own grandchildren was deathly allergic to, while the children were outside to spite her DIL because she wanted to be in control for her own selfish purposes. That is really showing me how this women doesn't care who she hurts in the long run to make her point or get her own way. What mother upon meeting the mother of her son's fiancée for the first time would dare speak down on another mother's child like she did about SW to her mother?

THEN A man marries a woman like "his mother". (A woman marry's a man like her father). Sociological studies state that. CW Marries SW (NOT SPEAKING DOWN ON THE WOMAN HERE I'm going by what has been said in the past but I do have respect in every way for her). SW was controlling for a very different reason. Instead of selfish desires or gain, her reasons for being like that was definately beyond a doubt for the health and well-being of her family. Whether she was obsessive with it I don't know. IMHO. She was a great woman....a good find! A KEEPER! She knew how to get things done.

THEN CW goes and confuses himself with an affair with a woman of a different type. He got his freedom with her. THEN SHE gets upset with him and deletes all his messages because he never told her about the baby. Which is HUGE! So I don't blame her ...although I do blame her for continuing an affair with a married man which I absolutely no doubt feel she knew about. As soon as she found out that should have been it.

He has TWO WOMEN who are in his life supposed to be THE MOST IMPORTANT women in a man's life: his wife and his mother bickering and fighting. (I am not placing blame. I'm just looking at it through his eyes). His escape using a woman was this woman he had an affair with and then SHE was angry. SO every woman in his life is angry.

HE IS NOT SEEING what is going on. ALL HE KNOWS is all this anger around him.

(THOSE POOR LITTLE GIRLS THROUGH THIS BECAUSE this was affecting them moreso than it was for CW and then ....I won't even go there because it breaks my heart).

ALL THIS MOO as a person with BPD....now... to explain this to others without it....a doors hinges comes loose....you are there tightening that screw to get that door on better. A person with borderline is replacing the whole door. A person without borderline their emotions from all intense purposes fluctuate throughout the day on a scale from one to ten from four to five or six back down to a four........with borderline those same emotions you are feeling go from a two to a five up to an eight or nine back down to a two. If we get stuck on one of the two extremes it's bad. WITH ANGER being that emotion being stuck up there on the nine I really can see this all happening exactly the way CW explains in this latest video with the anger from that said argument lingering even with the children especially since those precious little faces did resemble SW more that CW.

I am satisfied he's telling the truth here. I don't need to have an explanation other than the fact that he stated: He was angry. MOST PEOPLE do NOT kill when they are angry...they delete texts, they rip up photos, they work out (which I would have liked to see CW work out)...anything other than harming, especially an innocent precious little one. I have no doubt he loved every single one of them too. Hence the back and forth of why he didn't save them. (spare their lives would be a better description). CW probably doesn't understand why he couldn't stop himself. He probably has never been to a psychiatrist or therapist lest it is now in prison.

............MOST WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THIS with mental health issues...none of it.
I'd like to see him get his brain tested and all that for his own personal understanding and for the understanding of the family's and friends on both sides of the courtroom to get a better answer.

The brain of a borderline does misfire and is seen on those tests. Too the hippocampus can be measured.

I'm not excusing what he did I'm just trying to shed light on it.

Most of this is MOO and My guess is as good as yours without the personal experience of having BPD I could never be able to understand that anger either...but it is indeed like CW stated...it's beyond an anger...it's a rage.

God bless and my heart goes out to each and every family member in this case. I have no answers as there have been instances to where even the most hardened criminal has been forgiven by his maker on his literal death bed in a sentence carried out. I am no judge only our maker can make those determinations. ~Marie
 
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Did you notice whenever they touch upon why he did this why he did that he changed the subject and he can't remember and it was like somebody was controlling him and please don't persecute me for bringing it up again but it reminded me of the mistress when she avoided questioning... that is consistent with denial=lie?!?!

I wonder if he was afraid Shannan would confront NK. He was extremely protective of NK
 
CW maintains his nice guy persona darn near thru the whole thing. But, IMO, he does slip when he's asked if Bella heard something and he says "obviously" in a smart *advertiser censored* way and then adds "I think" as an afterthought so LE would still think he's a "good guy." Did anyone else catch that?
But according to CW, Shanann didn't fight back, so what noise would have been heard in a strangulation? So much of what he claims in his confessions doesn't make sense. It defies logic.
 
But that would have made you like them, you see? Why emulate something you hate? I don't understand why they, (Watts), couldn't have just shut up! Say nothing, don't "Go There", even if they felt compelled to defend, or explain the actions of their child.

No, you can't truly be like them unless you are devoid of healthy emotion and consumed with a sickness of heart.

The Watts seem to care only for themselves, and to such a degree that they are able to shut out anyone else's experience.

CW learned his lack of emotion from his parents I believe.
 
CW maintains his nice guy persona darn near thru the whole thing. But, IMO, he does slip when he's asked if Bella heard something and he says "obviously" in a smart *advertiser censored* way and then adds "I think" as an afterthought so LE would still think he's a "good guy." Did anyone else catch that?

Yes. My antennae went up because I can't believe Bella slept all the way through whatever happened that night. The "obviously" comment that slipped out is telling.
 
We cannot diagnose Chris Watts. Additionally, a medical professional cannot diagnose Chris Watts without evaluating him and due to HIPAA, would not be able to disclose Chris Watt's diagnosis.

What we do know according to the recent PDF of the latest interview written by Agent Tammy:

Regarding Chris Watt's personality:

  • CW took eleven (11) separate tests to figure out his IQ. His IQ was 135 or 140.
  • An IQ range of 120-140 is very superior intelligence and over 140 is genius.
  • Chris Watts is introverted.
  • He was the introvert and SHANANN took control of most situations and was the dominant one. He hated being in videos, but he went along with it because it was for SHANANN’s business. He couldn’t tell SHANANN he didn’t want to be in the videos because it would have made her mad. He hated being “out there” for everyone to see (on videos).
  • (IMO, Chris Watts has low EQ and lacks empathy.)

  • (IMO, CW is a proven liar) He has always had a “crazy imagination,” ever since he was a little kid. He convinced his teacher in grade school that he went to Japan or China over the summer, which was not true. He wrote a whole story about it and his teacher believed him
Regarding Chris Watt's anger:
  • He felt like taking CELESTE and BELLA’s lives was caused by an anger with SHANANN that he took out on everyone in front of him that morning.
  • He had never been angry before “and this was like the epitome of being angry.”
  • He was angry since July (2018) when SHANANN told him his parents could never see their granddaughters again.
  • “I don’t know if that had something to do with it…that something inside me just triggered it and then it just like, all that pent up from the wedding and everything…it’s like a long fuse that finally just went to its end.”
Regarding issues between Chris Watt's family & Shanann:
  • His mother and SHANANN never got along after he proposed(2012). His mother and SHANANN never agreed on anything. His mother possibly thought SHANANN wasn’t good enough. His mother and sister didn’t like SHANANN and felt like SHANANN took him away from them and moved him out to Colorado.
(There is more information in the Watts Interview PDF written by Agent Tammy that I've linked below).
Well, Chris Watts said his IQ is that high. He's said a lot of things, like his wife was placidly praying while he choked the life out of her.
 
As I again watch the video of Chris confessing to his dad, it appears he doubts Chris' story even while also appearing to emphasize what Chris should say to the detectives.

How must it feel to know that his son sat there and pretended to be pouring out a heartbreaking story while lying through his teeth?

Surely the dad has watched this again and understands what an accomplished liar his son was/is....

But maybe not.
 
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