Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder? #2

I guarantee you that any documentary crew with an agenda could poke what appear to be holes in a case put together by a small rural police force and DA's office. They can focus on small things, make mountains out of them, and dupe more than a few people. Avery is where he should be, in a prison cell.
 
I guarantee you that any documentary crew with an agenda could poke what appear to be holes in a case put together by a small rural police force and DA's office. They can focus on small things, make mountains out of them, and dupe more than a few people. Avery is where he should be, in a prison cell.

Have you watched the 2nd season of the documentary? I was not convinced at all by the first season. Information in the 2nd season, however, certainly gave me pause to question the validity of guilt for either party.
 
Have you watched the 2nd season of the documentary? I was not convinced at all by the first season. Information in the 2nd season, however, certainly gave me pause to question the validity of guilt for either party.
There is no objectivity. The producers have an agenda and are only taking one side. It is like when you read Morris' book about Jeffrey Macdonald. He could make you question the obvious, because his side is all you read. Or the docu about Sayed right now, biased and propaganda.
 
Steven Avery's attorney has filed a motion asking the circuit court to reverse his conviction for the 2005 murder of Teresa Halbach and order a new trial. The motion also requests a new judge to preside over the case.

Kathleen Zellner filed the post-conviction relief motion March 11 in Manitowoc County. The case, which had been in the appeals court, was sent back to circuit court so Zellner could file this motion.

No future hearings have been scheduled.

Steven Avery's attorney requests new trial, new judge
 
Had to file a new motion, the second part of the docu is coming out.
 
Kathleen Zellner‏Verified account @ZellnerLaw 9h9 hours ago
We reviewed the State's Response yesterday and it made us................SMILE.
@lifeafterten @michellemalkin @Newsweek @RollingStone @guardian #MakingAMurderer2

Kathleen Zellner‏Verified account @ZellnerLaw 42m42 minutes ago
'Making a Murderer': Kathleen Zellner Responds to State of Wisconsin's Claim Steven Avery Should Not Have a New Trial ⁦@lifeafterten⁩ ⁦@Newsweek⁩ ⁦@michellemalkin#MakingAMurderer2

'Making a Murderer': Kathleen Zellner Responds to State of Wisconsin's Claim Steven Avery Should Not Have a New Trial

The State of Wisconsin doesn’t want to see Making a Murderer subject Steven Avery have a new trial, it revealed in a response to Avery filed Friday. His lawyer, Kathleen Zellner, commented on the 19-page response, which aimed to negate her arguments and the new evidence in support of Avery’s alleged innocence her team presented in a brief filed March 12.

“The State is thumbing its nose at the appellate court once again,” Zellner told Newsweek on Tuesday. “That court specifically ordered that the merits of the alleged bone destruction be addressed. Rather than follow the court's directive, the State has constructed a convoluted procedural argument that defies logic or precedent.”

'Making a Murderer' lawyer responds to Wisconsin's claim Steven Avery should not have a new trial
 
Kathleen Zellner‏Verified account @ZellnerLaw 6h6 hours ago
Avery Update: The court will be hearing from us this week. The deeper we dig the more deception we uncover. I guess they do not realize the whole world is watching. ⁦@lifeafterten⁩ ⁦@michellemalkin⁩ ⁦@Newsweek⁩ ⁦#MakingaMurderer https://hermannherald.com/making-a-murderer-part-2-a-post-conviction-master-class/26754/ …
Thanks for sharing :) I think they get a chance to reply to the State's motion before the judge makes a ruling. I find it hard to believe that a hearing wouldn't be held to get to the bottom to what was and wasn't given to the family, but in this case, nothing surprises me LOL
 
Thanks for sharing :) I think they get a chance to reply to the State's motion before the judge makes a ruling. I find it hard to believe that a hearing wouldn't be held to get to the bottom to what was and wasn't given to the family, but in this case, nothing surprises me LOL
YW, missy!! I hear ya.... nothing with this case surprises me either lol!! Ah well, I guess all we can do is wait and hope a hearing is held in the not too distant future. *fingers crossed tightly here*
 
There is no objectivity. The producers have an agenda and are only taking one side. It is like when you read Morris' book about Jeffrey Macdonald. He could make you question the obvious, because his side is all you read. Or the docu about Sayed right now, biased and propaganda.

Did you get an opportunity to watch it yet?
 
Kathleen Zellner‏Verified account @ZellnerLaw 7m7 minutes ago
MAKING A MURDERER: Steven Avery asks court to reject state's "inconsistent" argument #MakingAMurderer2

MAKING A MURDERER: Steven Avery asks court to reject state's "inconsistent" argument

MANITOWOC COUNTY, Wis. (WBAY) - Steven Avery's attorneys have responded to the State of Wisconsin's request that a judge not grant Avery a new trial in the Teresa Halbach murder case.

Avery is appealing his 2007 conviction for 1st Degree Intentional Homicide in the murder of Halbach. The case is the subject of Netflix series "Making A Murderer."

The response was filed April 11 in Manitowoc County Court by Avery attorney Kathleen Zellner. Avery is trying to get a new trial based in part on the state's failure to alert Avery about bone fragments found in the Manitowoc County Gravel Pit that were handed over to the Halbach family.

CLICK HERE to read the full response

MAKING A MURDERER: Steven Avery asks court to reject state's "inconsistent" argument
 
What were the explosive new revelations revealed in the 2nd documentary?
I googled and can not get a straight answer ... I'd rather get it here where I trust people!
 
What were the explosive new revelations revealed in the 2nd documentary?
I googled and can not get a straight answer ... I'd rather get it here where I trust people!

hmmm I'm not sure? I have to be honest, I think I only made it to episode 7. Everything they were showing, those of us that have followed since MaM was released, I think we found that it was all stuff we knew, or at least that is how I felt.

IMO MaM2 was good for those that didn't have the time to keep up or wanted an updated or aren't online in forums like us lol Of course it was from the Avery/Dassey perspective again though ;-)
 
What were the explosive new revelations revealed in the 2nd documentary?
I googled and can not get a straight answer ... I'd rather get it here where I trust people!

It was 1/2 about Brandon's appeal process. But I thought it had a lot of good info to expand your knowledge and fill out the picture. Most notable: Blood spatter examination of TH's blood on RAV, illustrations of tracking dog paths and what they were interested in, an informative interview with Josh Radant, human bone fragments on Manitowoc Gravel Pit property, a test run of possible path TH took after parting with SA. Also, details on numerous sightings of a small greenish SUV, parked and driving.
 
Thank you for posting this. It reminded me to actually look into this. I heard about it AGES ago, in the mid-1990s and was intrigued, MaM2 re-ignited the interest, and you re-re-ignited my interest.

Your article has this juicy quote

Oh well if anyone is qualified to determine the merit of this technology, it would be world renown neurologist Ken Kratz.
And now the offer to Kratz makes more sense to me.

In MaM2 Zellner pretty explicitly stated the value of the test to her was more in Steven's willingness to take it.


I found an interesting article on Brain Fingerprinting. Here are bits I think are worth posting here. I have written summary at the end for the reasonable people, look for the red text to find the summary. One should note the article I use is from 2005 and more research into brain-based deception detection methods has occurred. The article is very broad and pretty good though.

As for Brain Fingerprinting itself, it has its basis in what is known as the "P300" response. Essentially, after encountering a familiar/meaningful stimulus, your brain reacts approximately 300 milliseconds later. This phenomenon was discovered in the 1960s and has been studied extensively.

The way Brain Fingerprinting works is you are shown a word that maybe has something to do with a crime or maybe it doesn't and you have to answer yes or no. Familiar/meaningful ones result in that P300 response on an EEG. If you answer no and the p300 is present, that is indicative of a deceptive answer.

The bones of contention with Brain Fingerprinting itself is that the P300 response gets used as a lie detector, when what it truly tests is familiarity/meaningfulness and there are complications. Other than that, Lawrence Farwell (the guy who did the Steven Avery Brain Fingerprinting Test) uses a lot of "Florid advertising copy" when talking about his research and his product. Never forget that Brain Fingerprinting is, in fact, a product.


Source:
Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice

This article is sort of a meta-analysis of Brain Fingerprinting. It is a study of the research done on the field. It is, overall pretty critical of Brain Fingerprinting as a lie detector as Farwell does it. It goes into the history of trying to use the P300 response as a lie detector, the author of the article has a history of trying this himself. Here is an interesting quote





The author lists some limitations that can muddy the water of Brain Fingerprinting's usefulness, such as sobriety of the suspect and the fragility of memory. A guilty person may not have guilty memories. He also, much later, points out countermeasures CAN be taken to throw off the results. Another thing is that the brain could be paying attention to something else, if the suspect is presented with the word "necklace" and the suspect didn't notice a necklace, that could give off inaccurate results.

The author of my source says that his own research tended to accurately find guilty parties based off of P300 responses 80-95% of the time. Another group of researchers had a 90% detection rate. Yet another group found 27-47% detection rates. A study by a Japanese police department tested it and got 48% success. So depending on who does it,the specific methodology, and who it is tested on you can get pretty variable results.

That is kind of normal, I guess you could say. The problem is there was/is nothing all that standardized, there was/is no solidified gold standard method. With no gold standard, things will be all over the map; researchers are mostly not being taught how to do it in college and are working it out for themselves to some extent. Stuff like that happens in emerging fields of study.


Brain Fingerprinting was used in an Iowa court. The guy was already in prison and tried using BF to get out. His case ultimately made it to the Iowa Supreme court which granted him the right to a new trial. The SC determined there was plenty of reason to grant him a new trial without the BF, so they kinda just shrugged at it, choosing not to really say one way or another whether it is a useful tool. That is normal for courts, they hedge their bets and if they don't need to set precedent, they often avoid doing so.

From a report by the U.S. General Accounting Office titled “Federal Agency Views on the Potential Application of ‘Brain Fingerprinting’”

Source:
Investigative Techniques: Federal Agency Views on the Potential Application of 'Brain Fingerprinting'
Of course, in the context of the time period, "enhanced interrogation techniques" were widely used and accepted, so lack of interest may be as much "we already have a system we like" as much as it was "it isn't worth our time trying this."

From the meta-analysis :




All that said, there are other researchers working on similar techniques, here is an article doing more or less the same general thing as Brain Fingerprinting, and is more modern and done by less....excitable researchers.

You probably don't have much need to read this article, it's very dense with jargon and math.
It is mostly here to demonstrate this is still an active field of research and there are competitors to Farwell and Brain Fingerprinting; if Farwell is shaky ground to stand on, there are other, superior options.

These researchers manage to surpass a 95% confidence interval in their methods. 95% is the standard for psychology research. A confidence interval sort of tells you the odds your result is good. Even Farwell, with his weirdness sometimes doesn't do this well sometimes.
P300 amplitudes in the concealed information test are less affected by depth of processing than electrodermal responses



----- TL;DR/SUMMARY----

-At this point in time, I would describe it as "unproven but not wild nonsense." I'm not finding anything that explicitly determined this can't work, more that Lawrence Farwell (the creator and the guy who tested Steven) overstates the accuracy and reliability of his procedure as vigorously and as often as he can; he claims 100% success, the author of the study I cited said -Farwell's results are more like 87-90%, and he only tested pretty small numbers of people.
-Farwell is a weird dude, research-wise and there are people doing similar but higher quality research. Farwell may be the only one you can hire to do these tests on a person in prison?
-The author of my source repeatedly points out problems with how Farwell works, but gets results similar to Farwell. Farwell raises red flags but if other people are getting similar or even better results, so I don't know what to really think about that.
-This brain-fingerprinting thing is probably the shakiest thing Zellner has done, but then again, she would have known that going in and said she primarily wanted to see if Steven would even willingly go along with it.

-I see nothing precluding this from being/becoming useful in the future in at least some instances.

My primary source again:
Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice

How would you, or would you, refute the findings of the other scientists in the documentary (Part 2)? The blood spatter expert, for example? That portion didn't even require a reenactment. Anyone who has knowledge of basic physics could see that the blood couldn't have arrived on that door in the manner the state proposed.

The odd places that blood didn't turn up since Steven was supposedly actively bleeding.

There are so many things that stink in this case. Chain of custody is but one area of many.

I was curious as to your thoughts and others' thoughts on the many issues raised in the documentary, Part 2.
 
I watched MAM 1 & 2...I thought it was informative....Something doesn't seem right with this case...

Hopefully someone can enlighten me...
TH had a few "hussle shots" or appointments prior to going to the Avery compound....Based on the timeline I thought it was settled that she didn't have time to return home... In addition to that, she was receiving calls between appointments while she was driving....She wrote those new appointments down while she was driving....

How did the roommate know her new "hussle shot" appointments and have a copy of her schedule??? I would think that schedule would be in her vehicle... He may have known her initial schedule at least the night before...

Zellner made some good points and it was good to see her testing the DAs evidence and theories...Wisconsin has a vendetta against SA and Zellner will have an uphill battle getting any relief in the courts there IMO...
 

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