CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #50 *ARREST*

[GordianKnot]

There can't be she said\he said at trial if he never says, right?

Correct.
It's going to be a case of, "she said, she said," IMO.
The "she" in this case who's going to be singing up on the stand is KK.

The DA will use KK's testimony to establish and/or cement PF's guilt in the jurors' minds.

The defense will then attempt to use KK's testimony on cross to destroy her credibility and nullify, or greatly diminish, her impact as a star witness for the prosecution.

If KK lies about anything when she's up on that witness stand, it's going to be problematic for the DA.

She can't talk out both sides of her mouth, which is going to be a tall order for such a big, fat liar.

I'm sure KK answering every question posed to her with complete truthfulness while under oath is part of her sweetie beauty of a deal.

So, in this case of "She said, she said" the she in question better be sure what she says stays consistent on both direct and cross examination.

JMO.

 

[MyBelle]

MG do you think MommaF will take the stand and plead the 5th at trial? Some people have speculated that PF might entertain a plea in order to protect SF.

I personally don't think he'll ever talk, but that could be strictly bc of my intense hatred of this defendant.

SF has no reason to invoke the 5th. She's not been named a suspect. She's elderly, might have memory problems and just has to say, "I don't recall."

JMO

 

[MassGuy]

SF has no reason to invoke the 5th. She's not been named a suspect. She's elderly, might have memory problems and just has to say, "I don't recall."

JMO

During the preliminary hearing, SF’s lawyer invoked her 5th Amendment rights.

You do not have to be named a suspect, in order to plead the 5th.

If she did it then, she will likely do it at trial.

 

[NWLady]

He's been in jail for three months now? I can't even imagine that - getting up one morning, the police show up, and you've just laid eyes on your home for the last twenty years for the last time ever (we hope).

No dogs or horses to kick, no gf to abuse - how does he deal with his anger?

And what probably makes him maddest of all is that KK turned on him and got a sweet deal and he's powerless to do anything about it.

If he didn't really have an ulcer before he got arrested, I bet he has one now.

Respectfully, BBM - Maybe the medicine KB went to Walmart to get PF was something PF thought would work to his advantage if the receipt was found by LE or family, etc. that it would help play into his story of KB taking off on her own and make it appear as if she had the stomach issues, and not him. But then again, I'm not sure his brain could've thought that far ahead but one never knows. I think he was trying very hard to make it look as if she just up and took off and that he would never be implicated in any way regarding her disappearance. If he was only half as smart as he thought he was........

And another thing, I doubt he just started having stomach issues that night. IF he had any stomach issues, I would venture to say it had been for a longer time period than just that 1 night and so therefore, he would've had medicine on hand for it, especially with having an RN in the same household. So, I'm not buying any of his BS about his stomach issue problem(s).

 

[MassGuy]

Respectfully, BBM - Maybe the medicine KB went to Walmart to get PF was something PF thought would work to his advantage if the receipt was found by LE or family, etc. that it would help play into his story of KB taking off on her own and make it appear as if she had the stomach issues, and not him. But then again, I'm not sure his brain could've thought that far ahead but one never knows. I think he was trying very hard to make it look as if she just up and took off and that he would never be implicated in any way regarding her disappearance. If he was only half as smart as he thought he was........

And another thing, I doubt he just started having stomach issues that night. IF he had any stomach issues, I would venture to say it had been for a longer time period than just that 1 night and so therefore, he would've had medicine on hand for it, especially with having an RN in the same household. So, I'm not buying any of his BS about his stomach issue problem(s).

Yeah. I think the fact that he had her helping with his animals, and picking up his medication, was somehow part of his plan to kill her.

I don’t think those events are a coincidence, considering what happened the next day.

My sense is that he planned to kill her that night, but things didn’t go according to plan.

 

[NanZDrew]

I think they will have to try something similar to that.

The problem the defense has, is that PF claims he last saw KB in person when they exchanged the baby on Thanksgiving Day.

I don’t know how they can spin a story that makes sense of him returning to her house (caught on video), and leaving with KB’s phone.

This is a massive lie.

They also need to explain all the communications that occurred when PF and KB’s phones were in the same place (two days after he claims to have last seen her).

I’ve been trying to think of a semi plausible story, but I can’t make it come remotely close to fitting with the evidence.

And let's say he took the baby to Wal-Mart and left KB behind to take a nap. There is video evidence to back that up. Then while he and baby were out running errands, KK entered KB's townhome and murdered her. He returned to find her missing...EXCEPT, he didn't call the police which is what a reasonable person would have done. And he wouldn't have had all those lying calls to CB afterwards, either, nor would he have concotted the story about her going to see Grandma.

 

[MassGuy]

And let's say he took the baby to Wal-Mart and left KB behind to take a nap. There is video evidence to back that up. Then while he and baby were out running errands, KK entered KB's townhome and murdered her. He returned to find her missing...EXCEPT, he didn't call the police which is what a reasonable person would have done. And he wouldn't have had all those lying calls to CB afterwards, either, nor would he have concotted the story about her going to see Grandma.

Ha! Exactly. Plus, that crime scene would have been a bloody mess.

I don’t see an angle for them here, even one that the dumbest juror alive would buy.

 

[NanZDrew]

SF has no reason to invoke the 5th. She's not been named a suspect. She's elderly, might have memory problems and just has to say, "I don't recall."

JMO

She's 64. That's not even full retirement age yet. Most people don't have dementia at 64 unless they have a long history of substance abuse. Granted, she does look at least 84...not meant to be snarky...but most people her age live a more vibrant life than she appears to live. Could have a lot to do with her back/leg problems. Nonetheless, nobody can be forced to speak against their will.

 

[NanZDrew]

Ha! Exactly. Plus, that crime scene would have been a bloody mess.

I don’t see an angle for them here, even one that the dumbest juror alive would buy.

By making such a detailed storyline, he painted himself into a corner with no wiggle room.

 

[MassGuy]

By making such a detailed storyline, he painted himself into a corner with no wiggle room.

Yeah, it’s incredibly detailed, and it’s rare to see something that extensive.

He picked the wrong story to try and sell, because it required a lot of communication.

It could take days to break down his cell phone activity in court.

 

[NanZDrew]

Yeah. I think the fact that he had her helping with his animals, and picking up his medication, was somehow part of his plan to kill her.

I don’t think those events are a coincidence, considering what happened the next day.

My sense is that he planned to kill her that night, but things didn’t go according to plan.

According to his texts, he sleep in late. She got almost no sleep. Sounds like she went close to 24 hours without sleep and with a child to care for plus phone calls all while getting up and cooking for the "event" that they were supposed to go to that afternoon. His texts to her indicate that he is not taking custody of the child, but taking her to run errands so KB can rest before they do something as a family. I think he hoped she would fall into a deep sleep and would not be awakened easily because she was so tired. She may never have awakened from her nap. Doubt we will really ever know. He sure likes to tell women to take naps, doesn't he?

 

[MyBelle]

During the preliminary hearing, SF’s lawyer invoked her 5th Amendment rights.

You do not have to be named a suspect, in order to plead the 5th.

If she did it then, she will likely do it at trial.

The judge ruled in her favor during the prelim. I believe at trial, she will be a defense witness.

1:32 p.m.


The state wants to ask Sheila about the phone call on Nov. 22 from Patrick, witnessing the burn, and more. Judge reviewed the case law citations. He says this is not the time & place for Sheila’s testimony.


1:30 p.m.


Court is back in session. Judge says they talked about admitting Sheila Frazee as a witness. She is exercising her right to remain silent at the advisement of counsel.

Live blog: Patrick Frazee appears in court for preliminary hearing

 

[MyBelle]

She's 64. That's no even full retirement age yet. Most people don't have dementia at 64 unless they have a long history of substance abuse. Granted, she does look at least 84...not meant to be snarky...but most people her age live a more vibrant life than she appears to live. Could have a lot to do with her back/leg problems. Nonetheless, nobody can be forced to speak against their will.

Oh, I think SF will gladly testify for the defense. I don't know anything about her health history because we can't sleuth her.

 

[NanZDrew]

Yeah. I think the fact that he had her helping with his animals, and picking up his medication, was somehow part of his plan to kill her.

I don’t think those events are a coincidence, considering what happened the next day.

My sense is that he planned to kill her that night, but things didn’t go according to plan.

Perhaps someone was supposed to be waiting in her apartment for her when she returned from cow hunting and then playing nurse. Perhaps they did not show up. If that scenario had happened, he would have had a really good alibi. He was on camera doing what he said, she was on camera at Wal-Mart without him. He could have shown up at noon the next day to find a bloody mess.

 

[NanZDrew]

Oh, I think SF will gladly testify for the defense. I don't know anything about her health history because we can't sleuth her.

Nobody is sleuthing her. Her age is in the MSM articles and the MSM video shows she has a limb.

People say, "I don't remember" or "recall" all the time on the stand whether they have dementia or not, if they just want to lie and get away with it. If we were playing "Family Feud" the number 1 answer to "Things People Say on the Witness Stand" would be, "I don't remember."

 

[MassGuy]

Oh, I think SF will gladly testify for the defense. I don't know anything about her health history because we can't sleuth her.

If she testifies truthfully, it’s almost certain that she will bury her son.

She knows his movements, she knows when KK arrived, and she knows about that fire.

Her safe bet, is to continue pleading the fifth.

 

[pcrum12]

Perhaps someone was supposed to be waiting in her apartment for her when she returned from cow hunting and then playing nurse. Perhaps they did not show up. If that scenario had happened, he would have had a really good alibi. He was on camera doing what he said, she was on camera at Wal-Mart without him. He could have shown up at noon the next day to find a bloody mess.

That is very plausible..... hmmm got me thinking.

 

[acutename]

I hope you are right but have serious doubts. I think PF absolutely is guilty and should rot in jail but proving it is going to be very difficult because much of KK's testimony can't be corroborated.

LE didn't make the sweet plea deal, the DA did. It would not surprise me if LE is outraged by it.

I fear the sweet deal will backfire with the jury. The defense will have the jury believing KK had the strong motive to kill not only KB but also to blame it all on PF. I agree with others who have pointed out KK's timeline is too absurd to be believed and it is obvious she was stalking KB and she almost followed through three different times.

KK premeditated, planned, assisted, covered up, obstructed, participated in a fraud and yes, lied to the FBI. She was complicit which is why she didn't step in and alert authorities. The sweet deal is insulting to KB and her family.

If a jury doesn't have evidence that a death did occur, how do they decide it was murder vs. accident? First degree, second degree or manslaughter? The Colorado attorney with the podcast has pointed out the defense can ask for a jury instruction on complicity if there isn't corroborating evidence to KK's claims.

2016 Colorado Revised Statutes :: Title 18 - :: Criminal Code :: Article 1 - Provisions Applicable to Offenses Generally :: Part 6 - :: Parties to Offenses - Accountability :: § 18-1-603. Complicity

JMO

I have asked myself, in a Devil's Advocate kind of way, well suppose this all wrong and KB is alive some where, but the biggest obstacle to me at this point is all her blood in the condo- under the floor boards, etc. LE said- so much blood, not compatible with life. People are saying "where's the body?" I am saying: "what would a body be if all the blood is drained from it?"

 

[ajaylee]

Perhaps someone was supposed to be waiting in her apartment for her when she returned from cow hunting and then playing nurse. Perhaps they did not show up. If that scenario had happened, he would have had a really good alibi. He was on camera doing what he said, she was on camera at Wal-Mart without him. He could have shown up at noon the next day to find a bloody mess.

This.

I think he planned to do it the night before, but lost his nerve.

I think he might have been able to get away with 'reasonable doubt' if the jury believed even half the stuff he's spread around about KB - bad mother, losing her job, substance abuse - if he had left her body, mess, and cellphone where they were and come back a day or two later, pretended to be surprised and horrified, and called the police.

His little games with the phones have come back to haunt him. I think he sat there texting lies to CB and making up fake conversations between himself and KB, squirming with delight as he did so, thinking how clever he was. He had killed her, picked up the baby, got in his truck and went home. No big deal, he was probably amazed at how easy it all had been.

 

[MyBelle]

Nobody is sleuthing her. Her age is in the MSM articles and the MSM video shows she has a limb.

People say, "I don't remember" or "recall" all the time on the stand whether they have dementia or not, if they just want to lie and get away with it. If we were playing "Family Feud" the number 1 answer to "Things People Say on the Witness Stand" would be, "I don't remember."

That's my point. There is no way to prove someone is lying when they respond "I don't remember" in testimony.

JMO