Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #12 *ARREST*

[Audiohoney]

Weren't they at that bench when they were running out of time to charge pr?

Like it was some last ditch attempt to find something incriminating?

It is odd they popped out in the dark just to look at that bench. One theory on here was that pr might have told the police him and Libby were on that bench as to explain why his DNA might be on it but why would he say that? Because I'm assuming they hadn't found any on the bench before that

Perhaps it formed part of his defence during questioning. The police may have disclosed to him that cctv puts him and Libby in the park, PR: ‘yes we sat on the bench and smoked’. Cue forensics rushing to the bench for scraps of evidence late at night. Just my thoughts as to why they’d go there in the dark to investigate.

 

[Joolz1975]

The thing I don’t get is surely out of respect if LE think for certain LS is dead her parents surely must have been told there is no hope of finding her alive but how on earth if this is the case could they keep something like that from other friends and family and keep up a pretence of not knowing on top of the horrific situation she’s still missing. It’s actually unimaginable what they are going through

Why would they need to keep it from friends and family??

Pretty sure they will have been told that it's very unlikely that Libby will be found alive.

The friends and family have been discreet all along so you can bet those closest to her parents know the truth.

Just because nobody has blabbed to the media doesn't mean they don't know that she isn't likely to come back.

 

[Vermont24]

The thing I don’t get is surely out of respect if LE think for certain LS is dead her parents surely must have been told there is no hope of finding her alive but how on earth if this is the case could they keep something like that from other friends and family and keep up a pretence of not knowing on top of the horrific situation she’s still missing. It’s actually unimaginable what they are going through

When police acknowledged that 'she may have come to some harm'...that was significant.

 

[Joolz1975]

When police acknowledged that 'she may have come to some harm'...that was significant.

And this obviously.

 

[Plod]

Screwdriver, hammer and lip gloss found by police amid new sighting

The Police surely must have allowed these photos to go out?

The ONLY time they were cagey before was putting a cordon around the pond/river when they were searching early on to protect public sensibilities on the off chance a body was found.

The only other evidence I've been aware of that they've been cagey about is other potential CCTV.

The only reason then I can think of them to withhold CCTV and details of other physical evidence is to wrong-foot PR when it comes to the trial and trap him in a lie. Which means that this physical/cctv evidence that they are withholding can't be strong enough on its own, but somehow, somewhere, in ways that can't satisfy a court of law, they are certain he did it.

Otherwise they would hit him with this evidence, presented it to the CPS, and charged him with abduction like they originally wanted and let it wash through in the court room if he continues to plead not guilty. Why then is their evidence to back up the abduction charge so weak they have to play cat and mouse with PR?

Because in English law, you need actus reus and mens rea.
Not only do they have to prove her did abduct her, assault her, murder her, But also that that’s what he set out to do.

It looks like LS got in his car at 1209 but what if his story remains that he was only wanting to help her... drove her home.., helped her in house... he doesn’t know what happened after. Can LE prove what happened was his plan to abduct her and that it wasn’t just out of kindness that he gave her a lift???
Or can they say he set out with a plan to kill her, or thought that’s what he was going to do - rape and then murder to cover his tracks.

Because if he killed her accidentally - too much force, - well then that may be viewed as manslaugher, not murder and he’s out of prison in 7-10 years.

Also there may be some things about Libby and her state of mind that a Defence team might try to use in their favour.

Perhaps a conviction for lesser sexual offences might throw some weight behind the way his mind works... though unlikely these offences can be mentioned at any trial re LS. But will certainly sway what prison sentence he might get.

The burden of proof is extremely high - the CPS will want a foolproof set of evidence that this is beyond doubt abduction/murder before deciding to charge.

Sorry for rambling. I’m sure if it was clear cut the police would have charged by now.

 

[Zazie]

'Lip gloss and tools found on Sunday afternoon on Beresford Avenue were not linked to Libby, police confirmed.'

Everything that happened on fourth day of search for missing Libby

As a friend who lives on Beresford said at the time, 'There's always [chocolate pudding] in that bush'.

I need some help translating this!

 

[Plod]

The thing I don’t get is surely out of respect if LE think for certain LS is dead her parents surely must have been told there is no hope of finding her alive but how on earth if this is the case could they keep something like that from other friends and family and keep up a pretence of not knowing on top of the horrific situation she’s still missing. It’s actually unimaginable what they are going through

Article today in Dailymail that Claudia Lawrence’s mum thinks she is still alive somewhere. I guess highly unlikely, but I guess that relatives will cling to hope their loved one is still alive. I guess until they have actual physical evidence, LE don’t want to shatter the family’s hopes.

 

[Vermont24]

I need some help translating this!

Which part?

 

[Strontium69]

Maybe because once PR and Libby are in the park there is no longer any cctv so no evidence whatsoever of what went on there and no witnesses as the 4 people LE wanted to come forward still have not.

But then we come back round to the sniffer dogs who can follow a trail months after someone has left the scene.

I posted a video some time ago where they used a dog very much like Charlie to find a missing person. They started outside her house, the dog found the body in some waste ground, and then worked backwards from there virtually to the door of the killer.

So I surmise that the frozen ground and subsequent thaw have practically destroyed that trail. IF they were in the park.

 

[Winterbells]

I've been thinking about this voyeurism lark and found myself wondering if filming whilst having sex with someone without their consent is a crime and if so, if the crime is called 'voyeurism'. Google came up with this article (link below).
All this talk of stealing sex toys, photographs, a woman's phone and voyeurism made me wonder if he was actually with a woman at the time, but was secretly filming their antics and while he was there, he stole stuff....?
The article below describes the case of a BBC producer who was jailed for eight months for secretly filming himself having sex with five women. The crime was called 'voyeurism'.
Given his not guilty plea to the voyeurism and theft crimes, I'm wondering if he's going to say that the victims gave their consent to being filmed and gave him the items he's accused of stealing (sex toys, money, phone etc).
BBC man who secretly filmed himself having sex with lovers is jailed

 

[Happylappy101]

Quick and dirty thoughts on covering your tracks. Or not.

PR's car - LS's DNA is found, probably her hair. PR can explain that by saying he merely gave her a lift. She was alive and well the whole time she was in the car, so no blood, cadaverine or putrescine is found.

The park - LE certainly found and took things away, but were they related to LS and PR? If they were, perhaps they could be explained by them simply being there or, at worst, a consensual sexual encounter.

No LS - I think this really is down to pot luck with the river.

Interesting theory, and I think it is a logical explanation. If no blood, cadaverine or putrescine found, can we then safely assume two facts: she was not killed in the car, and her dead body was not carried in the car? Therefore, where she was killed is in the vicitnity of where she rests? Or was she swept up in the river?

 

[Zazie]

Which part?

Chocolate...pudding?

 

[Vermont24]

Chocolate...pudding?

I just said that as a euphemism for a four letter word beginning with s and ending with t - meaning that people are always throwing things in that bush.

 

[Vermont24]

Interesting theory, and I think it is a logical explanation. If no blood, cadaverine or putrescine found, can we then safely assume two facts: she was not killed in the car, and her dead body was not carried in the car? Therefore, where she was killed is in the vicitnity of where she rests? Or was she swept up in the river?

That's how I see it playing out, particularly the latter.

 

[Zazie]

I just said that as a euphemism for a four letter word beginning with s and ending with t - meaning that people are always throwing things in that bush.

Heh-heh, thanks @Vermont24 ! I thought I might be missing out on some obscure Hull lingo!

(I very much like chocolate pudding so don't automatically associate it with cr*p!)

 

[Vermont24]

Heh-heh, thanks @Vermont24 ! I thought I might be missing out on some obscure Hull lingo!

(I very much like chocolate pudding so don't automatically associate it with cr*p!)

Sorry about that. No, we tend not to euphemise in Hull.

 

[Marulinka]

I found this interesting passage in a book about progression from non-contact offences to full on physical assaults. I'm thinking the police must suspect PR fits the bill! In some cases peeping is a prelude to assault, part of the process.

Crime Classification Manual

PR and the crimes he is being charged with are 100% as the book describes. He might as well fit thw bill indeed!

Personally I am convinced that although he might not have planned to escalate his crimes into full on physical assault that was his ultimate fantasy that he never really expected to play out....until the night he by chance encountered a super vulnerable potential victim (intoxicated, lonely LS)....something then clicked and the temptation of his ultimate fantasy becoming a reality was just too irresistible...just my thoughts..

 

[Officer Dibble]

Which part?

i think it refers to the chocolate pudding in the bush comment - it certainly boggled my mind

 

[RosalindaA]

IMO lack of physical evidence in the car doesn't exclude an attack or death in the car. Strangulation is a common method of murder by rapist/murderers and potentially leaves no trace in the environment. Cadaver scent, I believe, takes 90 minutes or so to emit from the body (IIRC it is slowed by colder temperatures), so may not be detectable by dogs if the body is removed before this occurs.

Small amounts of hair or touch DNA of the victim could be explained away by transference (eg to the boot of the car), and we know Libby was in the car.
And I don't know the level of expertise of this type of processing in the UK but IMO it is probably patchy and better in some areas than others, so things could be missed. And IF PR needed to clean up his car, he had plenty of time to do it. Police should have checked if he was seen to be cleaning the car, throwing away seat covers etc, this is potential evidence.
This case if it can be solved will be down to timelines, CCTV, vehicle and phone tracking and information from those who know the perpetrator and his movements on that night/days after. And what PR says or does not say on his interrogation tapes. I am assuming he talked (unless it took 3 days to find an interpreter). If he talked, then a skilful interrogator should have been able to extract enough from him (if guilty), that even if they did not get a confession, the lies/holes in his story are self-evident.

 

[Loobyloo]

New member here...
Been following the threads daily since mid-Feb (went over the earlier ones, too). Not local any more, but had 2 generations of my family study in Hull, so the locations are distressingly familiar.

Anyway, a few reflections which may or may not be useful:

- I see a definite escalation in the offences PR is charged with: the 3 'outraging public decency' charges are very recent, from Dec 2018 and Jan 2019, whereas the earlier charges of voyeurism and burglary are less 'active' in sexual terms. It starts with voyeuring in summer 2017, then moves on to non-sexual thefts (cash, games console) before the first theft of sexual items at the end of 2017, and builds up from there.

- Re. dating of the 'handling stolen goods' charge: possibly the phone had been reported stolen on that date, so when it was found in PR's possession (in person or via the house search) that date was attached to the alleged offence.

- Re. not guilty pleas: if PR is a fantasist (as suggested by the type of charges) maybe he is getting a kick from 'outwitting' LE, knowing he has covered his tracks as far as LS is concerned and may get immediate release in July even if found guilty, because of the time already served on remand.

- On the other hand, if he *is* innocent, that leaves another POI at large, someone who may be keeping their head down for now, hoping PR takes the rap. Someone who may have abducted/assaulted LS after PR left her, then driven out of Hull with a victim/body - it's not practical for LE to trace every vehicle leaving the city that night, so they'll be under the radar. That could explain the puzzling lack of evidence in Hull.

Sorry for such a long first post - have been saving up thoughts!