Madeleine McCann - Netflix documentary on this case

This case is so reminiscent of the Colorado matter decades ago. Staging and immediate control of everything. :rolleyes:

Shut down any hint of accusing the parents. We have seen this rerun before. We might have some questions due to this occurring outside America and not being as familiar with the way they run investigations.

Occam's razor applies here or at least in my mind. The case will never be solved because they skipped over the obvious.

JMHO
 
I agree with you something happened and they have set up a kidnap scene but 2 or 3 days earlier might be a bit of a push? I think maybe just earlier that day, before they went to dinner so giving them plenty time to hide Maddie.

Wasn’t there sightings of Maddie that day by hotel staff and other guests? do you think K and G’s friends also know what really happened? I really hope there isn’t another 7 people who would be willing to go along with this lie!

I actually wonder if they did see her. The photos all had her in the same clothes as on the plane when they first landed and then they were largely in their rooms and separate for the whole holiday. One of the other families had a blonde girl the same age and I’m wondering if that’s who they were seeing...

Maybe too much sleuthing and suspicion but that is what I thought when I saw the anomalies. A lot of the people involved all booked flights to that resort the day before at last minute. Gm phone went off for eight hours the day before.

Maybe it’s explainable and not that suspicious at all. I hope they are true as the level of hatred to them would be unmatched. Myra hindley would have more sympathy
 
Am I the only one convinced it was an abduction then? I thought the documentary was brilliantly put together, I didn’t sense any bias given the different lines of investigation it portrayed.
Ultimately there was zero concrete evidence found to show she died in the apartment. Although that doesn’t prove she was abducted, to see the other child abuse crimes taking place in that area, where British tourists specifically were being targeted, is a pretty big deal. A couple also spotted carrying a child that night, pitch black, startled and frustrated when spotted by a driver.
I also didn’t think K and G came across weird or odd, I felt like I was watching two parents trying their damn hardest to hold it together.
And as for Kate swearing under her breath at the Portuguese police as they were well into the 8th hour of accusing her of killing her own daughter - I won’t say what I would have been saying (or doing) had I been in that situation.
I think there will come a day where we learn what happened.

I think it's more likely she was taken to order for a paedophile gang than any other scenario given. There's a huge amount of evidence given here and l've followed it for years, including at the time it was happening.

Unfortunately the McCanns have not come across as likeable in the media. They seem aloof, even appearing to treat others with contempt. The media circus was to keep Madeleine in the public eye. They have received a lot if resource. Tbey are middle class professionals and we still live in a classist society.

The timeline doesn't stack up if she was murdered in the apartment because cadaver scent takes 3 hours to develop. This is why so many suspicious of the McCanns say she died a few days earlier. I just don't buy it. Too many opportunities for it to go wrong. I have often wondered if JT is lying about Tannerman sighting and if she is, why GM didn't back her up id there is collusion because he denies seeing her. That often gets forgotten by the parents did it brigade.

The DNA evidence isn't conclusive. The dogs evidence is inadmissible without supporting forensic evidence. There's no evidence of an intruder either but kidnappers for rings are expert at what they do.

I think it's easier for some of us to live with the concept of the parents doing it than consider the alternative.
 
I’m watching now and on episode 3. I remember when this happened in 2007. I followed it for a while, but then the sad case blew up with so much fighting and accusations that I left feeling it was all so muddled.

So I’m back with fresh eyes and hopefully a level judgement. My question:

The man who volunteered to check on Madeleine between Gregg and Kate, he noticed a lightness in the room. When Kate went back for her final check she also talked about the bright light in the room. What was the light from? Outside?

Kate would have noticed this other nights she went back to check in. It seems “the light” was an issue that fateful night. Was it from the shutter pulled up?
 
So, working in a medical area myself, I know that a sizable percentage of hospital beds have had a dead person in them for a few hours in the past. The dog's handlers mentioned that the dogs could detect a speck of blood on a cloth that had been put through a washer 3 times, and smell the cadaverine scent 45 years after a body had been buried there for a short time--days.

It seems to me that a physician might well have tiny traces of cadaverine on his/her clothing (shoes, etc.--things worn repeatedly) that could have brushed against the side of the car and s/her was lifting his/her left leg into the car before closing its door. In the same way, as unlikely as it seems, items touched frequently at the end of a hospital workday could pick up this odor, even after handwashing. When people read to their kids at night, don't they often tuck them in with the favorite stuffie, too?

Was any of the 7 people with the McCanns a pathologist? He or she might have been in the apartment several times. He or she would almost REEK of it to the cadaver-sniffing dog, I'd guess.

I don't know why the cadaverine scent would be behind the sofa, but I know that when a window is stuck, I don't have the arm strength to lift it, and will have to get behind the sofa to have enough leverage. As for the window, if I realize I have left a ground-level window open (in the city!), or think I have, the first thing I do is try to push it open. If I can't, it's locked, If I can, I lock it. That's faster and easier than just looking. If I were agitated, I might slam harder, and make the only really distinct print with my whole palm.

Hiding her body behind the sofa or in a cupboard would be a foolish choice, as once the alarm was raised someone would look there for someone so small. As for the newspaper comment about the bed being on the floor: No; it looked about 6-8 inches off the floor, and in a pinch I could almost squeeze under there now! Certainly, as a flat-chested 8-10 year old I could have.

They might have given the children the equivalent of Tylenol PM--acetaminophen plus diphenhydrame (antihistamine)--but as physicians, they know the safe dose. It is unlikely the child would have died unless he had an allergic reaction. It seems to me it would be reflexive to begin CPR right away without considering whether she could be saved, if the mother found her not breathing.

They did seem to be in great pain the first few days. Shock would usually set in a little later, and doctors and we nurses are trained to restrain public emotion. This is for the benefit of their patients, but it comes in handy when someone wants to make you cry--as in they think you killed your own kid.

They probably feel horrendously guilty for their carelessness, and if they medicated the kids to sleep, even more so. This doesn't make them murderers, even though they may have felt that much guilt and privately called themselves murderers in a diary, therapy, etc..

The rental car was rented for the first time 2 week after she disappeared, per the Netflix documentary.

I think those people lurking around definitely had something to do with it. They probably worked in a team. The one who was approaching the other woman's 3 year old daughter was probably the scout, and the two blonde men the abductors. One stood outside the window, where he could see the McCann party. The other sneaked in, and handed her out the window where she could be bundled off behind the bushes a little way before they were visible--possibly out of the line of sight form the McCann party. If someone sill remained in the room when the other physician checked and "heard something", it might have been the inside one after Madeleine was already gone. This is how the window got unlocked.

If I were looking for a lost child, I'd frantically search the apartment, then try the window, then run into the street screaming for the child by name, then run for the spouse to help me search the streets. The spouse might have felt the need to search the apartment, too, then the streets, and only then call the police, or ask someone else to call while frantically searching the streets.

I wonder if:

1) Another medical person with cadaverine on his person--like another doctor in the party--might have touched those things, or some items that were later packed into the car trunk. Whether any number of previous renters had lost a speck of blood behind the sofa. It was cleaned daily by people who might wash the window, stand behind the sofa to get to it, etc. Usually these are women who bleed every month.

2) The parents commented how unusually tired Maddy was on the way home, falling asleep earlier than usual. That's usually about an hour or less after the dose. Where were the kids before they came home? Was it an inside job, maybe someone at the daycare "Ocean Club"? If a trafficking ring or lone pedophile wanted lots of opportunities, he or she would be doing well to work there, seeing booking records, scouting kids, etc.

3) Liars often incorporate a little truth which helps them add an authentic flavor to their stories, or provide (unasked) a reason for evidence that hasn't been found yet (right, detectives?), and they usually add more detail than necessary. What if the collectors for "3 little rich kids from another country whose parents were just killed" was meant to cover for them later when all 3 McCann children were stolen? Or when someone might see them with 3 little children from anywhere, when they were not the parents? And what if the scout knocked on doors to confirm a young child lived where expected, or to get a closer view of a certain type of a child? If the hotel register shows "with party of 3 children" it might need confirmation if the only other info was a beachside sighting or photo.

4) HOW was that long-haired man with the white van cleared? Because they never saw him with a kid? What if scouting was his main or only role?

5) The woman expecting a delivery in Barcelona might simply be a (more polished, wealthy) leg of the journey. (Who is out on a street late at night waiting to have a child delivered for a legitimate adoption--even a private one?) If so, she would have a cover story ready if apprehended. It might go like, "I was told she was an orphan, and I have always wanted a child". This would dovetail nicely with the orphanage story if both were caught; they could both claim to be duped by a fake orphanage. Of course for her family I wish the adoption angle turns out to be true.

6) It is unlikely that Maddy knows who she is, being so young when taken. But it's also possible that all that publicity about the odd right eye raised her chances of being recognized and so keeping her alive anywhere but in a secret compound away from the outside world would seem risky.

I feel in my gut she is still alive, and may still be found. If she knows she is not with her natural parents, who knows what she was told about them? Abductors (I have read) usually tell the kids that the parent gave or sold them away because they were bad kids and/or unwanted.

I think the "inside job" angle needs more exploration. Someone may have drugged the kids, wherever they were in the hour before being put to bed. Who were they with at that time?

And, sad to say, I wonder about the other members of the party. It would be hard for any of them to molest Maddy, kill her and hide the body. But no one should be outside suspicion if they were considering the parents.

Lastly, I feel very sad for J. Peri Bnnaez, the private detective who was traumatized by what he had to see on the child-*advertiser censored* websites. He could even have post-traumatic stress disorder, or be depressed by what he "can never unsee", as he said. The McCanns really ought to consider re-hiring him, as he apparently feels as driven as anyone else besides the McCanns themselves to keep searching. He also risked his own emotional well-being to leave no stone unturned. Even now, unpaid, he can't stop trying to solve the puzzle.
 
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Oh, and the 7th segment mentions another little girl, also quite pretty, stolen ( I think 2 weeks earlier) within 20 miles of Paihia de Luz. The brother accused of murdering her was eventually described as having a drug problem. Apparently he finally admitted he'd sold her to a "rich woman" (visiting from Barcelona?) and was later shown images of her alive and whole in a wealthy environment. He didn't know where or with whom. What if he was told that he could make much more money finding other children for that woman? He looks a bit like the darker man, only with short hair, and less prominent teeth.
 
Oh, and the 7th segment mentions another little girl, also quite pretty, stolen ( I think 2 weeks earlier) within 20 miles of Paihia de Luz. The brother accused of murdering her was eventually described as having a drug problem. Apparently he finally admitted he'd sold her to a "rich woman" (visiting from Barcelona?) and was later shown images of her alive and whole in a wealthy environment. He didn't know where or with whom. What if he was told that he could make much more money finding other children for that woman? He looks a bit like the darker man, only with short hair, and less prominent teeth.

Very interesting. Will be on that episode in a few days. I did find this article earlier today: Was Madeline McCann One of Many?

From where I am in the series, the cadaver dogs are Spaniels. I’ll have to research them more as cadaver dogs, but from my dealing with them in real life many are incredibly hyper and nervous. Never in a million years would I peg them as hounds that search blood, etc.

Also, the rental car they used was after Madeleine disappeared. I remember how cold the McCanns seemed back in 2007 and I see it again with footage. Maybe it’s the Yank in me that cannot relate.

Edit: Had they been to the country before? You’d have to be fairly savvy to know where to hide or dump a body. But then again, the local police seem the furthest people away from actually sleuthing and looking. So perhaps it is very easy to conceal a dead body in Portugal.
 
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The issue l have with them being involved is the timeline. It all hinges on something happening earlier that day or even days before. That would mean several people lying. In the disappearance of a child, l just don't buy it. Maybe the Tapas 7 if they all needed to cover something up, but the nursery staff as well? The other holidaymakers who claim to have seen her?

The question over knowing RM - that could just be not wanting to comment when someone is a suspect as one question is sure to lead to another. I found the call RM made that night but claims not to remeber very interesting..

They appear to treat everyone with contempt and this certainly hasn't helped their cause.

Yes, that call is disturbing. If there were a fairly inexperienced trafficking ring, checking to make sure all went well and letting the abductor know that there is a huge search underway would be natural. So might it be to suddenly realize the call would show up on records and to hang up. But in other ways Moratt seemed quite sincere. Maybe the men were lovers, and very much in the closet--or some other personal but harmless connection they didn't want to reveal. If the service the younger guy was hired to provide was *advertiser censored*, that would be in the story.
 
I think it's more likely she was taken to order for a paedophile gang than any other scenario given. There's a huge amount of evidence given here and l've followed it for years, including at the time it was happening.

Unfortunately the McCanns have not come across as likeable in the media. They seem aloof, even appearing to treat others with contempt. The media circus was to keep Madeleine in the public eye. They have received a lot if resource. Tbey are middle class professionals and we still live in a classist society.

The timeline doesn't stack up if she was murdered in the apartment because cadaver scent takes 3 hours to develop. This is why so many suspicious of the McCanns say she died a few days earlier. I just don't buy it. Too many opportunities for it to go wrong. I have often wondered if JT is lying about Tannerman sighting and if she is, why GM didn't back her up id there is collusion because he denies seeing her. That often gets forgotten by the parents did it brigade.

The DNA evidence isn't conclusive. The dogs evidence is inadmissible without supporting forensic evidence. There's no evidence of an intruder either but kidnappers for rings are expert at what they do.

I think it's easier for some of us to live with the concept of the parents doing it than consider the alternative.


THIS
 

As l said on the Alesha McPhail thread, children being stolen from their beds is the stuff of nightmares.

No one wants to think of children being stolen to order by paedophile rings. The documentary highlights the case of Etan Patz who was stolen, abused and murdered decades ago. We know it happens but we don't want to believe it could happen to our children.

Of course there's no evidence this happened to Madeliene but there is evidence of paedophiles in the area and other incidents taking place around the same time. Let's be honest, apart from the parents , very few people believe she's still alive.
 
Interesting that 3 of the Tapas 7 were determined to convince police that it was Robert Murat that they saw near the apartment on the night. Also interesting that the whole group declined to take part in a reconstruction.

Gerry was asked if he knew Murat, but instead of simply saying yes or no he rambles on about how he's not going to comment on that.
 
So, working in a medical area myself, I know that a sizable percentage of hospital beds have had a dead person in them for a few hours in the past. The dog's handlers mentioned that the dogs could detect a speck of blood on a cloth that had been put through a washer 3 times, and smell the cadaverine scent 45 years after a body had been buried there for a short time--days.

It seems to me that a physician might well have tiny traces of cadaverine on his/her clothing (shoes, etc.--things worn repeatedly) that could have brushed against the side of the car and s/her was lifting his/her left leg into the car before closing its door. In the same way, as unlikely as it seems, items touched frequently at the end of a hospital workday could pick up this odor, even after handwashing. When people read to their kids at night, don't they often tuck them in with the favorite stuffie, too?

Was any of the 7 people with the McCanns a pathologist? He or she might have been in the apartment several times. He or she would almost REEK of it to the cadaver-sniffing dog, I'd guess.

I don't know why the cadaverine scent would be behind the sofa, but I know that when a window is stuck, I don't have the arm strength to lift it, and will have to get behind the sofa to have enough leverage. As for the window, if I realize I have left a ground-level window open (in the city!), or think I have, the first thing I do is try to push it open. If I can't, it's locked, If I can, I lock it. That's faster and easier than just looking. If I were agitated, I might slam harder, and make the only really distinct print with my whole palm.

Hiding her body behind the sofa or in a cupboard would be a foolish choice, as once the alarm was raised someone would look there for someone so small. As for the newspaper comment about the bed being on the floor: No; it looked about 6-8 inches off the floor, and in a pinch I could almost squeeze under there now! Certainly, as a flat-chested 8-10 year old I could have.

They might have given the children the equivalent of Tylenol PM--acetaminophen plus diphenhydrame (antihistamine)--but as physicians, they know the safe dose. It is unlikely the child would have died unless he had an allergic reaction. It seems to me it would be reflexive to begin CPR right away without considering whether she could be saved, if the mother found her not breathing.

They did seem to be in great pain the first few days. Shock would usually set in a little later, and doctors and we nurses are trained to restrain public emotion. This is for the benefit of their patients, but it comes in handy when someone wants to make you cry--as in they think you killed your own kid.

They probably feel horrendously guilty for their carelessness, and if they medicated the kids to sleep, even more so. This doesn't make them murderers, even though they may have felt that much guilt and privately called themselves murderers in a diary, therapy, etc..

The rental car was rented for the first time 2 week after she disappeared, per the Netflix documentary.

I think those people lurking around definitely had something to do with it. They probably worked in a team. The one who was approaching the other woman's 3 year old daughter was probably the scout, and the two blonde men the abductors. One stood outside the window, where he could see the McCann party. The other sneaked in, and handed her out the window where she could be bundled off behind the bushes a little way before they were visible--possibly out of the line of sight form the McCann party. If someone sill remained in the room when the other physician checked and "heard something", it might have been the inside one after Madeleine was already gone. This is how the window got unlocked.

If I were looking for a lost child, I'd frantically search the apartment, then try the window, then run into the street screaming for the child by name, then run for the spouse to help me search the streets. The spouse might have felt the need to search the apartment, too, then the streets, and only then call the police, or ask someone else to call while frantically searching the streets.

I wonder if:

1) Another medical person with cadaverine on his person--like another doctor in the party--might have touched those things, or some items that were later packed into the car trunk. Whether any number of previous renters had lost a speck of blood behind the sofa. It was cleaned daily by people who might wash the window, stand behind the sofa to get to it, etc. Usually these are women who bleed every month.

2) The parents commented how unusually tired Maddy was on the way home, falling asleep earlier than usual. That's usually about an hour or less after the dose. Where were the kids before they came home? Was it an inside job, maybe someone at the daycare "Ocean Club"? If a trafficking ring or lone pedophile wanted lots of opportunities, he or she would be doing well to work there, seeing booking records, scouting kids, etc.

3) Liars often incorporate a little truth which helps them add an authentic flavor to their stories, or provide (unasked) a reason for evidence that hasn't been found yet (right, detectives?), and they usually add more detail than necessary. What if the collectors for "3 little rich kids from another country whose parents were just killed" was meant to cover for them later when all 3 McCann children were stolen? Or when someone might see them with 3 little children from anywhere, when they were not the parents? And what if the scout knocked on doors to confirm a young child lived where expected, or to get a closer view of a certain type of a child? If the hotel register shows "with party of 3 children" it might need confirmation if the only other info was a beachside sighting or photo.

4) HOW was that long-haired man with the white van cleared? Because they never saw him with a kid? What if scouting was his main or only role?

5) The woman expecting a delivery in Barcelona might simply be a (more polished, wealthy) leg of the journey. (Who is out on a street late at night waiting to have a child delivered for a legitimate adoption--even a private one?) If so, she would have a cover story ready if apprehended. It might go like, "I was told she was an orphan, and I have always wanted a child". This would dovetail nicely with the orphanage story if both were caught; they could both claim to be duped by a fake orphanage. Of course for her family I wish the adoption angle turns out to be true.

6) It is unlikely that Maddy knows who she is, being so young when taken. But it's also possible that all that publicity about the odd right eye raised her chances of being recognized and so keeping her alive anywhere but in a secret compound away from the outside world would seem risky.

I feel in my gut she is still alive, and may still be found. If she knows she is not with her natural parents, who knows what she was told about them? Abductors (I have read) usually tell the kids that the parent gave or sold them away because they were bad kids and/or unwanted.

I think the "inside job" angle needs more exploration. Someone may have drugged the kids, wherever they were in the hour before being put to bed. Who were they with at that time?

And, sad to say, I wonder about the other members of the party. It would be hard for any of them to molest Maddy, kill her and hide the body. But no one should be outside suspicion if they were considering the parents.

Lastly, I feel very sad for J. Peri Bnnaez, the private detective who was traumatized by what he had to see on the child-*advertiser censored* websites. He could even have post-traumatic stress disorder, or be depressed by what he "can never unsee", as he said. The McCanns really ought to consider re-hiring him, as he apparently feels as driven as anyone else besides the McCanns themselves to keep searching. He also risked his own emotional well-being to leave no stone unturned. Even now, unpaid, he can't stop trying to solve the puzzle.

Great post, but just playing devil’s advocate - another theory could be that Madeline died at the window by falling and bumping her head when looking for her parents in a sleepy daze. I’m still on the fence though, I definitely think she was sedated by her parents and that’s why they are avoidant to answer questions on the matter. I pray the truth comes out someday.
 
Kate was a part time GP so l have a hard time understanding how cadaver scent would be in her clothes. I hardly think she wore the same things to work as she did on holiday, people normally take special holiday clothes with them. They could have been brought from the UK subsequently though l suppose.

There could be cross contamination. The dogs could be wrong as there was no evidence of a body or blood confirmed in the apartment.
 
Up thread someone mentions hiding her body behind sofa or in cupboard wouldn't be smart once the alarm was given and folks would be searching. But that certain Colorado case, also mentioned up thread, the body was left in basement.

Trafficking rings don't take upper-middle class girls from their beds. Girls have been taken from their beds but not by trafficking rings...ie: Elizabeth Smart, Shasta Groene and, recently, Jayme Closs. Riley mentioned above. If she was taken, my guess is it was like those mentioned and a crime of opportunity where some bad guy who was around that resort/family knew she was alone and could not help himself. Just MOO!
 
Great post, but just playing devil’s advocate - another theory could be that Madeline died at the window by falling and bumping her head when looking for her parents in a sleepy daze. I’m still on the fence though, I definitely think she was sedated by her parents and that’s why they are avoidant to answer questions on the matter. I pray the truth comes out someday.


My take on it is that there was an accidental double dose. Mum then Dad not realising Mum had already done it.

Talk of a syringe in the flat, is that the type you get with calpol, you know, the kind to make it easier to dose a young child with?
 

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