Ethiopian Air ET302, Boeing 737 crashes - 157 souls - 10 March 2019

[gregjrichards]

Europe and Canada said they would seek their own guarantees over the safety of Boeing’s 737 MAX, further complicating plans to get the aircraft flying worldwide after they were grounded in the wake of two accidents killing more than 300 people.

Stakes rise for Boeing as EU, Canada step up scrutiny of 737 MAX after crashes | Reuters

I’m really pleased about this it should be done with all aircraft in future as the FAA in the States has serious failings.

 

[Tripod]

Europe and Canada said they would seek their own guarantees over the safety of Boeing’s 737 MAX, further complicating plans to get the aircraft flying worldwide after they were grounded in the wake of two accidents killing more than 300 people.

Stakes rise for Boeing as EU, Canada step up scrutiny of 737 MAX after crashes | Reuters

I’m really pleased about this it should be done with all aircraft in future as the FAA in the States has serious failings.

I'm also glad there will be serious scrutiny . I don't know enough to have an opinion as to there being serious flaws within the FAA, but as with all government agencies worldwide, I sure hope failings that are found will be corrected, ASAP. I also hope the same for the Boeing Co. I pray for comfort for the families and that we all get answers.

 

[gregjrichards]

A cockpit recording from a doomed Lion Air Boeing jet has revealed pilots desperately looked through the plane's instruction manual as it nosedived into the sea off Indonesia.

Pilots scoured the handbook as they struggled to understand why the Max 8 aircraft was lurching downwards - but ran out of time before it hit the water, according to people with knowledge of the recording.

Pilots of doomed Lion Air jet 'desperately looked through handbook as it nosedived into the sea' | Daily Mail Online

 

[gregjrichards]

Out of interest how is this tragedy being covered in the United States is the coverage impartial or is it pro Boeing?

 

[gregjrichards]

Hero pilot Captain Chesley 'Sully' Sullenberg is slamming the Federal Aviation Administration for allowing Boeing oversee its own aircraft certification inspections, after two of their 737 Max 8 planes fatally crashed.

Sullenberg rose to international fame in 2009 for his miracle emergency landing in the Hudson River when the plane's engines disabled, saving 155 people on board.

The now retired pilot turned safety advocate says that the FAA 'has created an inherent conflicts of interest' by allowing Boeing to conduct certification inspections on their own planes.

Captain 'Sully' slams the FAA for letting Boeing conduct their own certification inspections | Daily Mail Online

I agree with Mr. Sullenberg it is scandalous.

 

[Justice101]

Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

SBM

Current and former engineers directly involved with the evaluations or familiar with the document shared details of Boeing’s “System Safety Analysis” of MCAS, which The Seattle Times confirmed. The safety analysis:

• Understated the power of the new flight control system, which was designed to swivel the horizontal tail to push the nose of the plane down to avert a stall. When the planes later entered service, MCAS was capable of moving the tail more than four times farther than was stated in the initial safety analysis document.
• Failed to account for how the system could reset itself each time a pilot responded, thereby missing the potential impact of the system repeatedly pushing the airplane’s nose downward.
• Assessed a failure of the system as one level below “catastrophic.” But even that “hazardous” danger level should have precluded activation of the system based on input from a single sensor — and yet that’s how it was designed.

The people who spoke to The Seattle Times and shared details of the safety analysis all spoke on condition of anonymity to protect their jobs at the FAA and other aviation organizations.

Both Boeing and the FAA were informed of the specifics of this story and were asked for responses 11 days ago, before the second crash of a 737 MAX last Sunday.

SBM

Wow, if true this would explain a lot! Especially the 4 times distance of the tail deflection. The force of 4 times the expected tail deflection would create a SERIOUS FORCE downward for the nose. And then.. for once autopilot shut off and starting to correct pitch.. then MCAS enables again and pushed the nose down further. Then the pilots overcompensate and manually pull the nose way up... only to think things are under control.. Then the MCAS resets after 30 seconds and thinks the nose IS WAY HIGHER NOW, so it uses the 4 times actuation of the tail wings.

This makes perfect sense.

The only thing is that some pilot know how to permanently get out of this loop.. others do not.

This looks on the surface like 75% design and 25% poor training.

 

[squid]

FBI joining criminal investigation into certification of Boeing 737 MAX – The Seattle Times

The FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX, lending its considerable resources to an inquiry already being conducted by U.S. Department of Transportation agents, according to people familiar with the matter.

The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.

The FBI’s Seattle field office lies in proximity to Boeing’s 737 manufacturing plant in Renton, as well as nearby offices of Boeing and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) officials involved in the certification of the plane.

SBM

 

[human]

To put it into perspective, you buy an expensive car but in the driver’s manual it says that there is a serious flaw and if you get into a certain condition, you can override the flaw.

Would you get rid of that car as fast as you can?

 

[JudgeJudi]

 

[squid]

Out of interest how is this tragedy being covered in the United States is the coverage impartial or is it pro Boeing?

I live in the DFW metroplex, headquarters of American Airlines and Southwest Airlines. They operate the US fleets with the most Max planes.

Reporting locally has been impartial and fact-based following the lead of the airlines and not Boeing.

Southwest initially reported they were not grounding the plane having made 31,000 flights with it.

There was not a huge outcry from the public when it was grounded. That being said the conversations seem focussed less on the crashes and more on why so many flights in the US have been successful with no known red flags.

What the differences are, if any, between the US and Malaysia and Ethiopia whether it was clearer communication about the anomaly/issue, better pilot training to deal with issues, or some kind of update already applied.

The community doesn't seem worried but has taken more of a wait and see approach.

 

[MsMarple]

Wow, if true this would explain a lot! Especially the 4 times distance of the tail deflection. The force of 4 times the expected tail deflection would create a SERIOUS FORCE downward for the nose. And then.. for once autopilot shut off and starting to correct pitch.. then MCAS enables again and pushed the nose down further. Then the pilots overcompensate and manually pull the nose way up... only to think things are under control.. Then the MCAS resets after 30 seconds and thinks the nose IS WAY HIGHER NOW, so it uses the 4 times actuation of the tail wings.

This makes perfect sense.

The only thing is that some pilot know how to permanently get out of this loop.. others do not.

This looks on the surface like 75% design and 25% poor training.

I agree. And now Boeing has announced a software update.

On Wednesday, the FAA provided an incremental update on its fix to the plane, which it has previously said will be rolled out "no later than April 2019."

"The FAA is aware that Boeing is developing a Service Bulletin that would specify the installation of new flight control computer operational program software," the FAA said in an international notice.

"Boeing has also developed flightcrew training related to this software," it said. "The FAA's ongoing review of this software installation and training is an agency priority, as will be the roll-out of any software, training, or other measures to operators of the 737 MAX."

FAA: Boeing 737 MAX to get software update
It's a shame that it took two crashes for Boeing to develop an appropriate training program when it should have been addressed in the first place.

I'm surprised the FAA doesn't require pilot training on all new additions and modifications.

IMO it all revolves around money. The airlines want fuel-efficient planes and they don't want to pay for training. Boeing wants to sell its new planes so it does a little side step and assures the airlines that training won't be necessary. The airlines don't question it, the FAA doesn't question it. Whose job is it anyway? SMDH.

IMO Boeing's in deep doo doo but I don't think the investigation will sink the company.

I hope the FAA is thoroughly investigated too.

 

[JanetElaine]

To put it into perspective, you buy an expensive car but in the driver’s manual it says that there is a serious flaw and if you get into a certain condition, you can override the flaw.

Would you get rid of that car as fast as you can?

Yesterday!

 

[gregjrichards]

Boeing Will Stop Charging to Install Safety Feature After Deadly Crashes

Boeing Will Stop Charging to Install Safety Feature After Deadly Crashes

 

[gregjrichards]

Boeing is getting sued for wrongful death over the Lion Air crash of a 737 Max 8 in Indonesia ... a disaster that killed everyone on board -- and signaled the start of Boeing's troubles with the model.

The federal lawsuit was filed by the estate of Rohmanir Pandi Sagala, one of the 189 souls lost when the flight went down last October. According to docs, obtained by TMZ, the 737 Max 8's problems stem from a system called MCAS -- Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System -- which is supposed to stabilize the plane during flight.

However, in the suit, Sagala's attorneys say the MCAS on Lion Air's Flight 610 tilted the nose into a dive without any input from the pilot ... due to a faulty sensor. Sagala's estate claims the pilots fought to pull the nose back up, causing the plane to seesaw more than 2 dozen times before crashing into the Java Sea.

TMZ

 

[JudgeJudi]

Boeing Will Stop Charging to Install Safety Feature After Deadly Crashes

Boeing Will Stop Charging to Install Safety Feature After Deadly Crashes

Could you please quote a bit of this article. I have to subscribe to read it.

 

[gregjrichards]

Could you please quote a bit of this article. I have to subscribe to read it.

Apologies.

“As the pilots of the doomed Boeing jets in Ethiopia and Indonesia fought to control their planes, they lacked two notable safety features in their cockpits.

One reason: Boeing charged extra for them.

For Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers, the practice of charging to upgrade a standard plane can be lucrative. Top airlines around the world must pay handsomely to have the jets they order fitted with customized add-ons.”

Continued

“Boeing’s optional safety features, in part, could have helped the pilots detect any erroneous readings. One of the optional upgrades, the angle of attack indicator, displays the readings of the two sensors. The other, called a disagree light, is activated if those sensors are at odds with one another.”

Doomed Jets Lacked 2 Safety Features That Boeing Sold as Extras

I don’t know if the safety features can be retrofitted.

 

[JudgeJudi]

“As the pilots of the doomed Boeing jets in Ethiopia and Indonesia fought to control their planes, they lacked two notable safety features in their cockpits.

One reason: Boeing charged extra for them.

For Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers, the practice of charging to upgrade a standard plane can be lucrative. Top airlines around the world must pay handsomely to have the jets they order fitted with customized add-ons.”

Thank you for this.

If both planes crashed because they lacked the 2 safety features, I think that would be absolutely criminal. Add-ons that are essential to prevent crashes can hardly be treated as optional extras IMO. It's not as if we're talking about adding an optional extra that would be "nice to have".

To me, this is really starting to look "dirty". I'd be more than unhappy if I were a family member.

 

[Jim_M]

Apologies.

“As the pilots of the doomed Boeing jets in Ethiopia and Indonesia fought to control their planes, they lacked two notable safety features in their cockpits.

One reason: Boeing charged extra for them.

For Boeing and other aircraft manufacturers, the practice of charging to upgrade a standard plane can be lucrative. Top airlines around the world must pay handsomely to have the jets they order fitted with customized add-ons.”

Continued

“Boeing’s optional safety features, in part, could have helped the pilots detect any erroneous readings. One of the optional upgrades, the angle of attack indicator, displays the readings of the two sensors. The other, called a disagree light, is activated if those sensors are at odds with one another.”

Doomed Jets Lacked 2 Safety Features That Boeing Sold as Extras

I don’t know if the safety features can be retrofitted.

Seems to me our airliners should be treated far differently than our vehicles. Thinking of the millions of people who fly every year, I would assume they would feel safer with ALL features available to the pilots. I mean, heck, how long did it take to make seatbelts, and air-bags, standard equipment?

Is this what we expect from our airline manufacturers? That additional safety measures are an added cost?

All of these victims should be alive. Who knows, perhaps our laws can be improved to make safety the number one item for our peoples?

 

[1&2&3]

What a shame that Boeing offers these safety features as an upgrade! Shouldn’t all safety features be automatically included on the build of a plane? Include it in the original estimate of the cost, not as an optional upgrade.

One factor that strikes me as coincidence is that both crashes have been in foreign countries. What are they doing different than other countries?

Can we find out what countries, if any, bought the planes with the upgrade safety features?

 

[gregjrichards]

“The captain of a doomed Ethiopian Airlines flight did not practise on a new simulator for the Boeing 737 MAX 8 before it crashed killing him and 156 others, a pilot colleague said.

Yared Getachew, 29, was due for refresher training at the end of March, his colleague said, two months after Ethiopian Airlines had received one of the first such simulators being distributed.”

Continued

“Boeing did not send manuals on MCAS,' the Ethiopian Airlines pilot told Reuters in a hotel lobby, declining to give his name as staff have been told not to speak in public.

'Actually we know more about the MCAS system from the media than from Boeing.'”

Captain of doomed Ethiopian jet 'had not practised on 737 MAX 8 simulator' | Daily Mail Online

It is absolutely disgraceful Boeing has not given information on MCAS to the airlines and more importantly pilots flying the plane. The suspicion on Airliners is that this was intentional to ensure the plane was certified to fly as quickly and easily as possible. The plane was also sold as not requiring additional training which clearly is not the case.

I don’t want the pilot blamed for this disaster it is not his fault he must have desperately fought for his life and everyone else’s onboard.