Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #88

[ab01]

I agree, there is something about the DNA they do not want to reveal. This is JMO but I think BG attempted to destroy two things: the phone and DNA evidence. We know the phone was found and hopefully he was not successful at totally destroying DNA either.

I think what they don’t want to reveal to BG is simply that the dna they do have ended up not being connected to the crime scene...moo

Nearby plastic bottles, cigarette butts, trash etc

 

[Mamabear3cubs]

Here’s to hoping tommorrow will be the day someone close to BG finally steps up and gives LE that “one tip”!

 

[Jabarn]

Here’s to hoping tommorrow will be the day someone close to BG finally steps up and gives LE that “one tip”!

Hopefully. It seems there is a mire of deviants out there, and without understanding the motive and *possible* lack of physical evidence, it’s a very hard case to solve.

Relooking at TB. DELPHI: Premature to link St. Louis attack

I assume nothing much has come from that in relation to Delphi?

 

[gregjrichards]

Hopefully. It seems there is a mire of deviants out there, and without understanding the motive and *possible* lack of physical evidence, it’s a very hard case to solve.

Relooking at TB. DELPHI: Premature to link St. Louis attack

I assume nothing much has come from that in relation to Delphi?

You are correct.

I wish we knew more about the dozen of so people law enforcement are watching and why and who are top of the list.

 

[TheVisual]

No posts since Saturday. Have we been shut down?

 

[Angleterre]

I think the scenario you describe is maybe more likely to occur with "standard" genetic testing, which involves analysis of genetic short tandem repeats (STRs). Familial genetic testing, which uses a different system of comparison (single nucleotide polymorphisms, or SNPs), is more likely to be able to distinguish between even closely related individuals, from what I understand. Even the DNA of identical twins can be discerned from SNPs, I believe. If I'm wrong maybe someone can chime in. Here's a blog post that explains this somewhat....https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...WMAV6BAgFEAE&usg=AOvVaw0fR3EmhMHpXay0XnZ9KMeg

Identical twins have the same DNA because it is one egg that splits into two. So DNA cannot be aligned to just one of the twins, it’s either the DNA of both or none and cannot individually identify which twin it is .

 

[Jax49]

Identical twins have the same DNA because it is one egg that splits into two. So DNA cannot be aligned to just one of the twins, it’s either the DNA of both or none and cannot individually identify which twin it is .

DNA Test That Distinguishes Identical Twins May Be Used in Court for First Time

But now, a decade after the assaults, scientists have developed a genetic test that can distinguish between identical twins, and it may be used in court for the first time in this case.

The test works by taking a close look at the genetic letters (called base pairs) comprising the 3 billion-base-pair human genome. Because mutations randomly occur during development, even genetically “identical” twins will vary at a handful of locations, says Burkhard Rolf, a forensic scientist at Eurofins Scientific, the company that developed the test.

I was surprised to find reports that they now can tell the difference. Very interesting development. moo

bbm

 

[JudgeJudi]

Apologies for this lengthy post but it will be my last on the subject of DNA. I think it clarifies a few points. More about the case under appeal is in the article.

1) IF they have what they believe to be BG’s DNA, they want at least one more piece of evidence to support it because DNA is very easily contaminated. It is circumstantial evidence and I’m unaware of any cases where DNA alone has brought about a murder conviction. However it’s been used very successfully in post-conviction exonerations. DNA must link a person to the crime, not just to a person.

2) They have some other evidence which on its own is not enough to secure a conviction.

If they have BG's DNA it must, almost by definition, be from the crime scene. They already have the other pieces of evidence to support a conviction: His presence with the victims (Libby's photographs) and his voice. I don't believe they would hold off on taking action against someone who's DNA was found amidst two murder victims just to wait for additional corroborating evidence.

LE have never stated whose DNA was found at the crime scene, nor have they stated that they have other pieces of evidence to support a conviction.

Even if someone identifies BG and if, say, his DNA has been found on a weapon at the crime scene, that alone still doesn't prove his guilt. Touch DNA for example does not prove that the person actually visited the scene or directly touched the object in question. The DNA easily could have been transferred by other means.

DNA is like a fingerprint. Police can link you to a crime scene by matching a DNA sample left behind. A prosecutor can use this evidence to support his or her theory that you were present when the crime was committed in an effort to convince the jury beyond reasonable doubt that you are the perpetrator.

Whether your DNA found at the crime scene is enough evidence to convict you was the question in a recent Court of Appeals case. The defendant was convicted of burglarizing a Santa Ana nail salon based solely on DNA evidence. He appealed the judgment, claiming that there wasn’t enough evidence linking him to the crime scene to support his conviction. The Appeals Court agreed.

The defendant’s appeal asked the Court to resolve the question of whether DNA evidence, standing alone, was enough to connect him to the crime.

The appellate panel reasoned that there must be a connection between an object found at the scene of the crime and the crime itself, rather than just a connection between the object and the defendant.

In the present case, the Court held that the mere presence of the defendant’s DNA on an object found at the crime scene did not, by itself, constitute sufficient evidence necessary to convict him of burglary. Accordingly, the Court reversed Arevalo’s conviction.

Was This Decision Fair? Unquestionably. Convicting a person on criminal charges requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did in fact commit the crime. DNA evidence found at the crime scene doesn’t necessarily implicate you without other corroborating evidence.

While DNA evidence may be considered the same as a fingerprint, and can link a suspect to a crime, a criminal conviction requires much more. Our criminal justice system depends on irrefutable proof that the defendant was not only present when the crime was committed, but also that he or she is, in fact committed the crime.

The Court in this case was asked to weigh the question of whether DNA is such convincing evidence, that nothing else matters. The court said No.

https://www.southerncaliforniadefenseblog.com/2014/06/dna_evidence_left_at_the_crime.html

 

[Inthedetails]

You are correct.

I wish we knew more about the dozen of so people law enforcement are watching and why and who are top of the list.

I had high hopes that the St.Louis perp was BG....but if that were the case, I think they would've been able to press charges by now.

Very frustrating case.

jmo

 

[gregjrichards]

No posts since Saturday. Have we been shut down?

No but some posts were removed.

I had high hopes that the St.Louis perp was BG....but if that were the case, I think they would've been able to press charges by now.

Very frustrating case.

jmo

It is very frustrating I can’t imagine how much worse it is for the girls loved ones who have to work and go to university and live every day with the suffering and worry.

 

[Yemelyan]

Identical twins have the same DNA because it is one egg that splits into two. So DNA cannot be aligned to just one of the twins, it’s either the DNA of both or none and cannot individually identify which twin it is .

Nope. The technology to distinguish identical twins' DNA has been around for many years. The article posted above is one of many that describes how this can be done and its use in courts of law.

 

[carbuff]

I had high hopes that the St.Louis perp was BG....but if that were the case, I think they would've been able to press charges by now.

Very frustrating case.

jmo

I dunno. They'd want to be building an airtight case before they made any arrest, and they'd want to do it in private. And depending on which labs are involved and what evidence is being tested, processing times can be in months or even years sometimes. It could take a long time.

 

[Angleterre]

DNA Test That Distinguishes Identical Twins May Be Used in Court for First Time

Wow
That is an amazing development that I’ve certainly not heard of here in the UK and I shall look into it with some considered interest as part of my job involves the detection of crimes through forensic evidence , so Thankyou for bringing this to my attention, I appreciate it. Kind regards. Jaq



I was surprised to find reports that they now can tell the difference. Very interesting development. moo

bbm

 

[Angleterre]

Wow
That is an amazing development that I’ve certainly not heard of here in the UK and I shall look into it with some considered interest as part of my job involves the detection of crimes through forensic evidence , so Thankyou for bringing this to my attention, I appreciate it. Kind regards. Jaq

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Along with this case I have also started following the murder case of Russell and Shirley Dermond that is the subject of the WS podcast, “Into the Case”. I just finished listening to the latest episode of the podcast which is a very long interview with the sheriff investigating it. It is striking how different these two cases are being handled by their respective law enforcement agencies.
The sheriff in the Dermond case not only has released nearly everything about the case, but discusses different aspects of it openly. He admitted he has a handful of things he is keeping quiet but for the most part it is all out there. On the other hand, as we all know, Delphi LE has released nothing. The Dermond case is 5 years old and unsolved. Delphi is 2 years unsolved.
So which is the best approach? They both seem kinda unsuccessful right now. I would think that LE in each case has an equal chance of solving their case with evidence uncovered by their own investigative efforts. I would also think the Dermond case has a higher chance of being solved by a tip from someone simply because there is more information out there to jog someone’s memory.
The sheriff in the Dermond case admits they still get crazy tips and tips that are more theory than substance. But my guess is they get way more quality tips. The public there would understand more what they are looking for and what might be important. In Delphi the public knows nothing, so they call every time they see somebody that looks like BG, and every wild speculation that spins in their head that is based on nothing...because they know nothing about the case. Then Delphi LE complains about the quality of the tips coming in and schools us on what’s a quality tip. Maybe if the public knew a little more, then tips would improve.
Two cases. Both unsolved. Different approaches by LE. Both need solving.
I still think more information is better. Not all of it, but more.

 

[dotr]

Along with this case I have also started following the murder case of Russell and Shirley Dermond that is the subject of the WS podcast, “Into the Case”. I just finished listening to the latest episode of the podcast which is a very long interview with the sheriff investigating it. It is striking how different these two cases are being handled by their respective law enforcement agencies.
The sheriff in the Dermond case not only has released nearly everything about the case, but discusses different aspects of it openly. He admitted he has a handful of things he is keeping quiet but for the most part it is all out there. On the other hand, as we all know, Delphi LE has released nothing. The Dermond case is 5 years old and unsolved. Delphi is 2 years unsolved.
So which is the best approach? They both seem kinda unsuccessful right now. I would think that LE in each case has an equal chance of solving their case with evidence uncovered by their own investigative efforts. I would also think the Dermond case has a higher chance of being solved by a tip from someone simply because there is more information out there to jog someone’s memory.
The sheriff in the Dermond case admits they still get crazy tips and tips that are more theory than substance. But my guess is they get way more quality tips. The public there would understand more what they are looking for and what might be important. In Delphi the public knows nothing, so they call every time they see somebody that looks like BG, and every wild speculation that spins in their head that is based on nothing...because they know nothing about the case. Then Delphi LE complains about the quality of the tips coming in and schools us on what’s a quality tip. Maybe if the public knew a little more, then tips would improve.
Two cases. Both unsolved. Different approaches by LE. Both need solving.
I still think more information is better. Not all of it, but more.

Guessing, but hoping that the reason Delphi LE have not released anything more about the case is because they have someone/something in mind, perhaps the situation is opposite of that in the Dermont case.
Although i think it would be helpful in the Delphi case if a tad more of the voice recording was released.
imo, speculation.

 

[Inthedetails]

Guessing, but hoping that the reason Delphi LE have not released anything more about the case is because they have someone/something in mind, perhaps the situation is opposite of that in the Dermont case.
Although i think it would be helpful in the Delphi case if a tad more of the voice recording was released.
imo, speculation.

IDK, but I think Delphi hasn't released a lot of information because they don't have a lot of information.

I do think they have small, key pieces that will help nail someone but aren't particularly useful in FINDING the perp. I also think the way the girls were murdered/found has likely been shared with other LE agencies around the country to help them link Delphi to other murders. I have a hunch the break in the case will be when the perp is caught elsewhere, not from a tip from the public.

I think the reason they don't release more audio is because it's disturbing or maybe simply other segments of the audio are muffled. IDK, but I'm trusting LE has done what they can with the release of the audio.

jmo

 

[dotr]

Thinking the perp will try to make sure he never uses these 3 words again..

 

[MistyWaters]

Apologies for this lengthy post but it will be my last on the subject of DNA. I think it clarifies a few points. More about the case under appeal is in the article.







DNA is like a fingerprint. Police can link you to a crime scene by matching a DNA sample left behind. A prosecutor can use this evidence to support his or her theory that you were present when the crime was committed in an effort to convince the jury beyond reasonable doubt that you are the perpetrator.

Whether your DNA found at the crime scene is enough evidence to convict you was the question in a recent Court of Appeals case. The defendant was convicted of burglarizing a Santa Ana nail salon based solely on DNA evidence. He appealed the judgment, claiming that there wasn’t enough evidence linking him to the crime scene to support his conviction. The Appeals Court agreed.

The defendant’s appeal asked the Court to resolve the question of whether DNA evidence, standing alone, was enough to connect him to the crime.

The appellate panel reasoned that there must be a connection between an object found at the scene of the crime and the crime itself, rather than just a connection between the object and the defendant.

In the present case, the Court held that the mere presence of the defendant’s DNA on an object found at the crime scene did not, by itself, constitute sufficient evidence necessary to convict him of burglary. Accordingly, the Court reversed Arevalo’s conviction.

Was This Decision Fair? Unquestionably. Convicting a person on criminal charges requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did in fact commit the crime. DNA evidence found at the crime scene doesn’t necessarily implicate you without other corroborating evidence.

While DNA evidence may be considered the same as a fingerprint, and can link a suspect to a crime, a criminal conviction requires much more. Our criminal justice system depends on irrefutable proof that the defendant was not only present when the crime was committed, but also that he or she is, in fact committed the crime.

The Court in this case was asked to weigh the question of whether DNA is such convincing evidence, that nothing else matters. The court said No.

https://www.southerncaliforniadefenseblog.com/2014/06/dna_evidence_left_at_the_crime.html

I agree, unless it can be proven a SA took place, DNA alone isn’t going to solve this crime. The “crime scene” is a large outdoor area accessible to the general public.

Neither is DNA required to successfully convict an accused.

I can appreciate this is a tough crime for LE to solve. Even IF a tip is received of a person who resembles the sketch or who’s voice sounds similar to the recording, I don’t think LE has the right to demand a DNA sample because nothing about BGs appearance or voice is very unique. I could probably pick a dozen guys with a resemblance at the local hockey rink at any given time and I live many thousands of miles away!

Just thinking back to the “good tips”. What LE is looking for is connected to evidence aside from DNA.


That includes things like:

• Suspect Name
• Date of Birth or Approximate Age
• Physical Description (i.e. height, weight, hair color, eye color)
• Specific Address or Location Last Seen
• Specific Vehicle Descriptions (i.e. license plate, year, make, model, color)
• Specific Reason for Tip (i.e. Why could they be the suspect?
• Motivation for Crime
• Connection to Delphi

“I do believe someone knows something that will help us."
Delphi investigator: We wont leave any stone unturned

 

[Ozoner]

I think what they don’t want to reveal to BG is simply that the dna they do have ended up not being connected to the crime scene...moo

Nearby plastic bottles, cigarette butts, trash etc

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you at this point. Reading between the lines, it has become clear that LE does not have BG's DNA—not a complete nuclear DNA profile, anyway.