Found Deceased UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #13 *ARREST*

[ChiCubs2016]

I don't, sorry. Just that he was a regular poster on the first thread I ever joined here several years ago, and as Margarita says he was very good at creating plans and diagrams.

And we are not to bagger our experts! They do not have to answer or provide backup.

 

[yoyo1]

I knew someone would say that. Personally, I find it hard to reach closure when I don't know the facts, but I know that many people feel the opposite way. All that matters, of course, is Libby's family and friends and I hope they see justice being done and soon.

I would find it a relief if he plead guilty.
Despite all the high foluted theories of sluices and second vehicles , it seems most likely PR picked up Libby in her most vulnerable state and took her to oak road park and we may not know the ghastly details of what happened next but it resulted in PR taking Libbys life.
Pleading guilty is the only positive thing PR can do at this stage.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

This is the footage, I have mostly gone by, paying particular attention to the point of her approaching car door and entering the car.

The more I look at this, the more it seems to me LS is somewhat pushed in. MOO

 

[grumpiness]

I am wondering if the man who stopped to offer help (Gray beard) who said LS was distressed. I am thinking that maybe PR had been harassing her or had flashed her and she was shrugging him off or trying to get rid of him. I know I have stopped before when it looks like a couple may be having a 'domestic'. (I am an interfering busy body maybe?)
I know it wasn't a domestic but maybe PR went back to his car to have a cig and waited until GB has gone before going back to LS and apologising and persuaded her to go with him.

 

[Miss_French]

I am wondering if the man who stopped to offer help (Gray beard) who said LS was distressed. I am thinking that maybe PR had been harassing her or had flashed her and she was shrugging him off or trying to get rid of him. I know I have stopped before when it looks like a couple may be having a 'domestic'. (I am an interfering busy body maybe?)
I know it wasn't a domestic but maybe PR went back to his car to have a cig and waited until GB has gone before going back to LS and apologising and persuaded her to go with him.

But it was reported the man with the grey beard was seen on cctv with Libby, so anyone else who interacted with her would have been also.

 

[Miss_French]

It is upsetting to think that when Libby was refused entry, she left alone with no friends leaving with her, for support.
Also, friends may not have been present, and I don't blame anyone.
So often when someone is perhaps intoxicated, they require support.
I am aware of a personal case, with a tragic outcome, where friends present were not helpful.
MOO.

One of Libby's friends put her in a taxi home from the Welly. And whilst the article says 'lived with', she was more than just a flatmate; she was on the same course and posted a tribute about what an amazing friend Libby was:

"Amelia Cummins, 19, has lived with Libby for the last two years. She said she last saw Libby when she put her into the taxi outside Welly on Thursday night."

Friends of missing Libby Squire want people to help search for her

 

[Miss_French]

So, having read the thread, over the last couple of days, I'm going to leave it at just posting my idea of what I think happened, and then others can knock lumps off it as appropriate.

So when LS was refused admission to the Welly Club, her friends put her in a taxi and sent her home. It seems to be generally assumed that the taxi got her there (I couldn't see anywhere whether police had traced and eliminated the taxi driver)

If she got home and found she was locked out, then that would explain her distressed state as observed in the street. (Was there some mention of her actually having got back into her digs and then left again, still without her phone?)

She then decides her only option is to go back to the Welly Club and find her friends. At the point where she's sitting on the bench trying to sober up and/or waiting for a bus, firstly the bearded good Samaritan stops and then, later, someone who may possibly have been the police suspect. For reasons unknown, she accepts this offer of help, then the perpetrator drives her back towards town but at some point tries it on with her and things get out of hand (could this have happened in the park, accounting for the screams?)

Either way, the perpetrator then disposes of the evidence into the water, somehow, despite the difficulty (I don't know whether there are any locations on the South bank of the Humber where there is deep water right up to the shore?)

One thing I don't understand is that the police must have gone all over the current suspect's car with a fine-toothed comb, yet they don't seem to have found any forensic evidence that LS had ever been in there (unless of course, they are waiting for post mortem checks which can now be carried out.)

In the absence of any further information about the cause of death or the state of her clothing and belongings, which are understandably being withheld by the police, a) so they can use information from them in questioning people and b) to weed out the random nutters who confess to crimes they haven't committed, I think it's not going to be possible to progress this without new witnesses, an arrest, or a confession.

Yes, the police eliminated the taxi driver who took Libby home. She wasn't seen to approach her front door, but wandered off down the street; this was quoted by 2 named students who are neighbours. Never seen anything about Libby ever entering the house.

It was said the man with the grey beard stopped as this was seen on cctv, but we don't know how the interaction with PR happened.

 

[Audiohoney]

But it was reported the man with the grey beard was seen on cctv with Libby, so anyone else who interacted with her would have been also.

Yes, and I do feel that is most likely the case. Although it has not been released publicly, I think many of us believe the police have additional footage of PR approaching Libby close to the bench. They will have seen much more than we have. Even spidercam footage is heavily edited with large chunks of time missing. I know when it was first shared here we felt frustrated at the persons face being obscured by the spiders web ... but chances are, as he walks too and from the car, or sits smoking, his face might be more visible on the footage. Much has been cut from what we get to see.

Minus 5 is so cold. Libby had already been outside in light clothing for over half an hour. What if it wasn’t that she turned down grey beards offer of a lift ... perhaps he didn’t offer her a lift anywhere. I do believe her distressed state implied she’d fallen or was visibly in trouble. You’d have no reason to approach a girl sat on a bench and it would be hard to see her as a passing motorist if that’s all she was doing. Drunk and cold I think it was sadly all too easy for PR to coax her away. Her natural instinct to protect herself might be clouded by alcohol and freezing temperatures. I know I’ve accepted lifts or gone to house parties with strangers back in my drinking days that I would never consider doing sober. Perhaps grey beard never offered to take her anywhere, but PR did. And without her wits about her, she simply accepted.

There are so many tragic, unfortunate moments that add up to a really sad chain of events putting Libby in the wrong place at the worst time. Similarly there are so many seemingly small but incredible positives (if you can call them that) which could be the difference between prosecution and a murderer walking free. Her body was hours from being lost at sea forever. And if PR had parked just a couple of spaces back or forward he would most likely have been out of sight of any cctv that captured the moment of abduction (if indeed that’s what we’re seeing). These moments of fate are so tragic and poignant.

 

[Joolz1975]

I knew someone would say that. Personally, I find it hard to reach closure when I don't know the facts, but I know that many people feel the opposite way. All that matters, of course, is Libby's family and friends and I hope they see justice being done and soon.

Why do you need closure??

Maybe her family are dreading the thought of all the little facts about her life and background been twisted and used as a defence by PR.

Maybe they are dreading the full facts of what happened to her been made public.

Maybe they are fed up that she has become such public property.

Maybe just maybe they would rather get this over and done with as soon as possible with the minimum amount of fuss so that her young siblings lives can go back to some degree of normality without the rest of their child hood years spent knowing that all their friends and peers know what was done to their sister.

But suppose that would be unfair if the people on a forum like websleuths don't get closure.

 

[Winterbells]

I would find it a relief if he plead guilty.
Despite all the high foluted theories of sluices and second vehicles , it seems most likely PR picked up Libby in her most vulnerable state and took her to oak road park and we may not know the ghastly details of what happened next but it resulted in PR taking Libbys life.
Pleading guilty is the only positive thing PR can do at this stage.

I agree that pleading guilty is the best thing the perpetrator could do, and I'm neither looking to hear the 'ghastly details' nor being 'mawkish' as someone commented earlier (although I don't think that's the right word). Having a daughter similar in age to Libby, living a Libby kind of happy, hopeful life, the whole wretched story is deeply worrying and haunting.
My post was about finding out what actually happens when a person pleads guilty, i.e. is evidence still presented to the judge and so forth, not to provide an excuse for virtue signalling about not being interested in 'ghastly details'.
This forum has spent weeks trying to figure out, for example, who was in the cctv footage we've seen... what was the reason Libby didn't go into her house, why did the man in the orange top turn around after running out of the park... who was it screaming in the park... etc. These are the details we may never have answers to. Whatever 'ghastly' details are in your head, I hope Libby died before being conscious of.

 

[cluciano63]

I don’t see why he would pleas guilty, short of DNA turning up on her body. Not sure what can be proven at this stage...do we even know the cause of death?

 

[Joolz1975]

I don’t see why he would pleas guilty, short of DNA turning up on her body. Not sure what can be proven at this stage...do we even know the cause of death?

No me either, I've only mentioned it because someone else commented about it earlier in the thread.

I don't think he will plead guilty at all unless some really strong evidence is presented to him at some point that he simply can't deny.

 

[Winterbells]

Why do you need closure??

Maybe her family are dreading the thought of all the little facts about her life and background been twisted and used as a defence by PR.

Maybe they are dreading the full facts of what happened to her been made public.

Maybe they are fed up that she has become such public property.

Maybe just maybe they would rather get this over and done with as soon as possible with the minimum amount of fuss so that her young siblings lives can go back to some degree of normality without the rest of their child hood years spent knowing that all their friends and peers know what was done to their sister.

But suppose that would be unfair if the people on a forum like websleuths don't get closure.

Omg. Because it is unbearable to me to think of that poor child suffering. I am hoping against hope that he knocked her out cold and she knew nothing beyond that point. I have no right whatsoever to have any wants or needs. She's not my child, I don't know her, she's nothing to do with me. But like everyone else on here (I hope) I care and her story has both touched and struck terror in my heart. I know that my hope of as little suffering as possible is a deluded one, but I cannot help that I have a tender heart and I cannot bear the idea of him driving her around for 3 hours, trapped and terrified, or chasing her screaming through the park, in the dark until she ran herself into the water as many have suggested.
But you go right ahead and rant away if it makes you feel good about yourself.

 

[Joolz1975]

Omg. Because it is unbearable to me to think of that poor child suffering. I am hoping against hope that he knocked her out cold and she knew nothing beyond that point. I have no right whatsoever to have any wants or needs. She's not my child, I don't know her, she's nothing to do with me. But like everyone else on here (I hope) I care and her story has both touched and struck terror in my heart. I know that my hope of as little suffering as possible is a deluded one, but I cannot help that I have a tender heart and I cannot bear the idea of him driving her around for 3 hours, trapped and terrified, or chasing her screaming through the park, in the dark until she ran herself into the water as many have suggested.
But you go right ahead and rant away if it makes you feel good about yourself.

Its unbearable to all of us or we wouldn't be here.

But ultimately the grief belongs to her family not strangers discussing sometimes quite frankly distasteful stuff on a forum.

It's them who need closure.

Doesn't mean we need to know all the gory details.

And that wasn't a rant.

That was MOO that maybe just maybe her family don't want all this dragged through the courts for all the world to see and hear (I'm thinking of all the horrific details that came out in the Alesha Mcphail case and the quite obvious trauma her family went through).

I could be wrong who knows but that's just my opinion.


I'm sure others will come along who agree with you though.

 

[yoyo1]

I agree that pleading guilty is the best thing the perpetrator could do, and I'm neither looking to hear the 'ghastly details' nor being 'mawkish' as someone commented earlier (although I don't think that's the right word). Having a daughter similar in age to Libby, living a Libby kind of happy, hopeful life, the whole wretched story is deeply worrying and haunting.
My post was about finding out what actually happens when a person pleads guilty, i.e. is evidence still presented to the judge and so forth, not to provide an excuse for virtue signalling about not being interested in 'ghastly details'.
This forum has spent weeks trying to figure out, for example, who was in the cctv footage we've seen... what was the reason Libby didn't go into her house, why did the man in the orange top turn around after running out of the park... who was it screaming in the park... etc. These are the details we may never have answers to. Whatever 'ghastly' details are in your head, I hope Libby died before being conscious of.

Id rather he plead guilty and we didnt learn anything more about it than we already do , i cant bring myself to read any of the families remembrance messages its all to upsetting, main thing is that justice is served and Libbys loved ones are given the closure they need , i can understand peoples curiousness as weve all been following this for weeks and become invested in it but frankly what we need is irrelevant.

 

[Winterbells]

Its unbearable to all of us or we wouldn't be here.

But ultimately the grief belongs to her family not strangers discussing sometimes quite frankly distasteful stuff on a forum.

It's them who need closure.

Doesn't mean we need to know all the gory details.

And that wasn't a rant.

That was MOO that maybe just maybe her family don't want all this dragged through the courts for all the world to see and hear (I'm thinking of all the horrific details that came out in the Alesha Mcphail case and the quite obvious trauma her family went through).

I could be wrong who knows but that's just my opinion.


I'm sure others will come along who agree with you though.

When I asked my original question about what happens when someone pleads guilty, I wasn't asking 'so will this mean we won't get to hear all the gory details?', I meant, does the perp get to just say 'I'm guilty' and then he's sentenced? in which case, none of the endless questions we've asked will ever be answered. And I know it sounds like I'm saying 'aww.. that's not fair' and I don't know how to say that's not what I'm trying to express. Someone then talked about closure, which led me to say that personally I never get closure unless I know what's what. But it's not me asking for or needing closure. Of course it's not!
However... you have made me realise that the alternative is horrific. A not guilty plea really would involve further hell for Libby's family.
I really didn't mean to cause such upset I do apologise for appearing to be saying 'I need closure'. I have no needs other than to hope Libby's family can somehow get to a point where they can live with what has happened.

 

[floridagrrl]

The more I look at this, the more it seems to me LS is somewhat pushed in. MOO

You and me both

At first watch when it first came out I was not sure at all

But then weeks later and then again today I traveled back about 20 odd years to when I was a young 20+ year old and had been this drunk. Not really coherent really. Not having my wits about me at ALL. (Of course I’m speculating and assuming as I am very aware all people are different and react differently to alcohol) but after watching the footage of her leaving the club with her friend getting her to a taxi, I was like “ah, yes. I so so remember and recognize that walk and demeanor”

After a bit and being very cold, then sitting on her bench. (Yes, that’s her bench now, forevermore) I could easily see myself getting dizzy and the damn “room spinning”
All I would want to do is lie down. Could she have become drowsy? Maybe? Which then could had made it easier for PR to guide her towards his car? Even if not it still would have been easy for him to take forecful but calm control of her movements and guide her to his car, not even just a few yards way. JUST YARDS AWAY. Within the same time frame she was seen on her bench. I don’t believe in coincidences when it comes to things like this. I can’t.

IMO, JMO

 

[Winterbells]

You and me both

At first watch when it first came out I was not sure at all

But then weeks later and then again today I traveled back about 20 odd years to when I was a young 20+ year old and had been this drunk. Not really coherent really. Not having my wits about me at ALL. (Of course I’m speculating and assuming as I am very aware all people are different and react differently to alcohol) but after watching the footage of her leaving the club with her friend getting her to a taxi, I was like “ah, yes. I so so remember and recognize that walk and demeanor”

After a bit and being very cold, then sitting on her bench. (Yes, that’s her bench now, forevermore) I could easily see myself getting dizzy and the damn “room spinning”
All I would want to do is lie down. Could she have become drowsy? Maybe? Which then could had made it easier for PR to guide her towards his car? Even if not it still would have been easy for him to take forecful but calm control of her movements and guide her to his car, not even just a few yards way. JUST YARDS AWAY. Within the same time frame she was seen on her bench. I don’t believe in coincidences when it comes to things like this. I can’t.

IMO, JMO

Completely agree.
And so weird that Greybeard was there at basically the same time as spidercam man. One would almost think spidercam man was waiting for GB to leave.

 

[Vermont24]

Maybe because she wasn't actually waiting to get on a bus as the bus from that bus stop would have gone out of the city away from her house. Maybe she needed to sit down as she was struggling to walk as a result of the drink and then if she saw any friend getting off a bus she could join them. Maybe she didn't want a bus to stop unnecessarily so didn't sit at the actual bus stop or she may have thought it too late for a bus but needed to sit so chose the bench

Buses don't stop for someone who is just at the stop, especially if they're sat down. You have to stand and put your hand out, much like hailing a cab.

I'm just pointing out that, of the two options, the bus stop is the more...
salubrious.

 

[Happygirlie2003]

Thanks for that. I'm guessing he didn't drop her home after putting her address in the sat nav. I hope the police have found some sort of tracking from the device he used

This is what I was wondering too, surely the journey on our sat nav systems is tracked which means LE would know exactly where PR went in his car that night and the times. This would mean they just have to fill in the gaps in time when he wasn’t in the car