CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #14

[oceanblueeyes]

Yeah, right! For now at least LOL.

And pardon me for saying but Houston we have a problem if the prosecution's evidence isn't enough to show beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty. So if one isn't already convinced I don't see how the defense case flopping is going to improve that.

JMO

True.

I can only speak for myself of course, but I firmly believe the evidence presented proves BARD that CM is indeed guilty as charged. Just my entitled opinion. Infact as for as myself, and what I believe, I dont have any doubt whatsoever, not even some imaginary or fanciful doubt. Lol!

I would much rather follow a CE case. First, they are far more interesting, but, foremost, what I like most about them they are very easy to link each CE piece together to form one image or puzzle. All of the puzzle pieces dont have to be present for the jury to clearly see the image in front of them.

Like Kelly always says on Cold Justice 'give me a CE case anyday!' Lol! I agree.

It's the very reason why all defense attorneys try so hard to diminish the weight of CE cases. Lol!

They know all too well how many times they have gotten their butts kicked in CE cases.

I don't even know why they desperately keep tryimg to brainwash others about CE cases, by falsely implying they are less weighty, when time after time the jury's verdicts are absolute proof it isn't true.

And also backed up by all of the appellate courts, and our own USSC! It can't be any clearer how weighty CE really is ...anymore than in the countless rulings made in our higher courts, who have consistently upheld the weight CE carries. Lol!

Imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Could you think “guilty” if you didn’t have all the discussion, articles, innuendo, blogs, books and knowledge you have outside of that courtroom? It is a tough question to answer, because of course you know what you know and you can’t un-know it.

I feel worried the prosecution has not connected the dots yet. They have not driven home the purpose or the usefulness of circumstantial evidence. My fear is that closing arguments may be too late for the juror or jurors who may have doubts. I wish they would have laid this case out for the jury differently.

I cant speak for MrJitty, but I am one who never was involved in any blogs, discussion boards, rumors or premature speculations.

So I have strictly gone by the evidence from the trial itself, and I do believe the state has presented evidence to prove their case, BARD, that CM is guilty as charged. Jmo tho.

However, the only deferment or down side, I can see that may cloud someone's judgement is if they had prematurely selected who they believed was the suspect, and it turned out not to be the one they firmly believed it to be.

What I mean is if they had followed the case for years, before the bodies were even found, or even after the discovery of their bodies, but before the actual evidence was gathered that would show only then who the actual suspect truly was.

ETA. I can see that possibly causing some type of personal confirmation bias if the suspect turned out to be someone else other than the one they thought was involved.

Jmo

 

[Tortoise]

I cant speak for MrJitty, but I am one who never was involved in any blogs, discussion boards, rumors or premature speculations.

So I have strictly gone by the evidence from the trial itself, and I do believe the state has presented evidence to prove their case, BARD, that CM is guilty as charged. Jmo tho.

However, the only deferment or down side, I can see that may cloud someone's judgement is if they had prematurely selected who they believed was the suspect, and it turned out not to be the one they firmly believed it to be.

What I mean is if they had followed the case for years, before the bodies were even found, or even after the discovery of their bodies, but before the actual evidence was gathered that would show only then who the actual suspect truly was.

Jmo

Same here ocean.

I hadn't read a thing except the early news reports of a family seen crossing the border.

 

[Tortoise]

The difference is I'm not a juror in either case. As a juror, I would make the presumption the defendant is innocent and listen to all the evidence before coming to a conclusion. I was referring to "as a juror" when I made the statement presumption of innocence. Guess I should have stated that.

As far as this case, I'm not convinced....yet.

My apologies Mica, I assumed the discussion was a continuance from an earlier post about presumption of innocence until the jury comes to a decision.

 

[Frankie Hellis]

I cant speak for MrJitty, but I am one who never was involved in any blogs, discussion boards, rumors or premature speculations.

So I have strictly gone by the evidence from the trial itself, and I do believe the state has presented evidence to prove their case, BARD, that CM is guilty as charged. Jmo tho.

However, the only deferment or down side, I can see that may cloud someone's judgement is if they had prematurely selected who they believed was the suspect, and it turned out not to be the one they firmly believed it to be.

What I mean is if they had followed the case for years, before the bodies were even found, or even after the discovery of their bodies, but before the actual evidence was gathered that would show only then who the actual suspect truly was.

ETA. I can see that possibly causing some type of personal confirmation bias if the suspect turned out to be someone else other than the one they thought was involved.

Jmo

But you’re on a discussion board right now, lol.

 

[Tortoise]

But you’re on a discussion board right now, lol.

How does that taint one's view of the evidence in the trial though? The jurors will get to discuss the evidence eventually.

 

[missy1974]

How does that taint one's view of the evidence in the trial though? The jurors will get to discuss the evidence eventually.

I'm guessing that was in response to this lol

I cant speak for MrJitty, but I am one who never was involved in any blogs, discussion boards, rumors or premature speculations.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Same here ocean.

I hadn't read a thing except the early news reports of a family seen crossing the border.

That is one of the reasons I try my best to steer clear of any unsolved case. Once misinformation enters the brain it's impossible to unring that bell or purge it from one's memory. Imo. If I had done that I wouldn't know fact from fiction because some posts may come across as facts when they are only speculations or assumptions.

Of course I was aware the McStays were missing. I don't live in a cave. HA.

I never believed for one second this family willingly traipsed off to Mexico never intending to return.

I felt all along they had all been murdered. I prayed for them all, that one day their bodies would be found. I felt if that happened there was a good chance the murdering culprit would be caught one day, and brought to justice.

I didn't even plan to watch CM interview. That was by happenstance too, and I was just flipping through the channels deciding what to watch. My hubby, and I did watch it, and we both said, we believe CM was the one who had murdered the McStays. It was one of the creepiest interviews I've ever watched, still is, especially when it was stressed that CM was Joey's best friend, and I've watch numerous shows involving best friends talking about how hard it's been since their friends went missing. This one was the most bizarre I've ever seen out of all others involving a best friend being interviewed.

I felt such an uneasy feeling as I watched him spew his garbage. From time my hubby, and I would look at each other in utter disbelief. We felt something was sinister about him under that fake persona, and he didnt even do that very well.

Even after then, I didn't care to know anything more about him at that time. Of course when I saw on the news, he was finally arrested around a year after their bodies had been found, I wasnt the least bit surprised, and certainly not shocked.

After knowing he had been arrested, I still did not delve deeply into the case, only reading occasional articles when I was trying to find updates on when the trial would begin. That was pretty much it. I knew though once the trial started I would be following it.

It's been hard at times to digest knowing how they all suffered so badly. I dont think I will ever be able to forget the photos of these adorable two boys or forget what happened to them, and how brutally their lives were taken.

Imo it's truly one of the worst murder cases involving two innocent little children when the monster who murdered them both wasn't even kin to them.

I still find it hard to grasp at times, that anyone who pretends to be human. could be so cold, callous, and brutal. I know there have been other cases of brutality of small children, but often the motive were sexual, and many times the offender was a total stranger.

The one thing those monsters have in common with CM though is they all are psychopaths.

Just like Daron Wint when he too tortured a 11 year old terrified helpless little boy for no other reason, other than because he wanted to, and knew he could. Another family, and their maid wiped out when diabolical evil entered their home.

Yet this case is even worse, if possible, because CM looked into the little terrified eyes of children he knew well, and killed them with a sledgehammer of all weapons.

His weapon of choice reveals so much about the murderer himself,and who he really is.

Imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

But you’re on a discussion board right now, lol.

That is certainly the case, Frankie, because we are in the trial discussion forum/threads now discussing the trial evidence entered by both sides.

Imo that is totally different than following the case very closely, day by day... for many years even before the bodies were found or before the suspect was even known or way before the trial

That's all I was saying.

Imo

 

[LadyL]

If I were a juror my current vote would be guilty.

The defence needs a game changer

did you vote in the poll?

POLL

 

[missy1974]

did you vote in the poll?

POLL

I haven't yet ... but I will eventually @LadyL Or maybe when the jury starts deliberating you can start another poll!

 

[travelbug]

The difference is I'm not a juror in either case. As a juror, I would make the presumption the defendant is innocent and listen to all the evidence before coming to a conclusion. I was referring to "as a juror" when I made the statement presumption of innocence. Guess I should have stated that.

As far as this case, I'm not convinced....yet.

I'm not convinced yet either, Mica. I've seen many MSM articles similar to this and the comments seem to support the idea that the PT needs to step up their game. The DT successfully challenged many of the PT expert witnesses: McStay murders: Defense for Merritt pokes holes in timeline of case
I'm still not a guilty verdict is a "slam dunk" at this point. Wish the trial would start up again so we can hear more from both sides. imo

 

[travelbug]

Isn't the defense putting all of their Easter eggs in one basket?

Thinking that blaming DK as the SODDI will save the day, and set CM free?

If so, they better come up with some actual compelling EVIDENCE, and not just the mere words of a witness who may have major credibility issues of her own, and possible personal biases.

We already know if she does have baggage of her own, if MR does the cross examination she is going to bring all of that to the jury, so they will be able to correctly weigh her credibility or lack of.....

How do they think the sponge expert guy is going to be able to save CM?

What if they do convince the jury Summer WAS raped, but the jury still believes CM is the guilty culprit in all violent crimes perpetrated against all four victims?

Does anyone think that decision would be an appellate issue if it backfires on CM, and was presented by his own attorneys?

Just things I ponder as we wait, and wait, and wait some more for the defense to kick into high gear.

Imo. So far their case has been very disappointing, and far from what was promised in their OS as to what was to come.

Jmo

My concern, at this point, has nothing to do with emotions. I'm observing the testimony and exhibits carefully. I then evaluate the quality of the "C.E." using that criteria. It is irrelevant if I think CM is a jerk or a gambler, I need to agree, to my satisfaction, that he is directly involved in the murder of this family. Had the initial "potential crime scene" been secured and properly examined this would be much easier. However, with a house accessible to anyone and SDSD and Dugal stating "it didn't appear to be a crime scene" I am not ready to make that decision yet. jmho

 

[citygirl]

That is one of the reasons I try my best to steer clear of any unsolved case. Once misinformation enters the brain it's impossible to unring that bell or purge it from one's memory. Imo. If I had done that I wouldn't know fact from fiction because some posts may come across as facts when they are only speculations or assumptions.

Of course I was aware the McStays were missing. I don't live in a cave. HA.

I never believed for one second this family willingly traipsed off to Mexico never intending to return.

I felt all along they had all been murdered. I prayed for them all, that one day their bodies would be found. I felt if that happened there was a good chance the murdering culprit would be caught one day, and brought to justice.

I didn't even plan to watch CM interview. That was by happenstance too, and I was just flipping through the channels deciding what to watch. My hubby, and I did watch it, and we both said, we believe CM was the one who had murdered the McStays. It was one of the creepiest interviews I've ever watched, still is, especially when it was stressed that CM was Joey's best friend, and I've watch numerous shows involving best friends talking about how hard it's been since their friends went missing. This one was the most bizarre I've ever seen out of all others involving a best friend being interviewed.

I felt such an uneasy feeling as I watched him spew his garbage. From time my hubby, and I would look at each other in utter disbelief. We felt something was sinister about him under that fake persona, and he didnt even do that very well.

Even after then, I didn't care to know anything more about him at that time. Of course when I saw on the news, he was finally arrested around a year after their bodies had been found, I wasnt the least bit surprised, and certainly not shocked.

After knowing he had been arrested, I still did not delve deeply into the case, only reading occasional articles when I was trying to find updates on when the trial would begin. That was pretty much it. I knew though once the trial started I would be following it.

It's been hard at times to digest knowing how they all suffered so badly. I dont think I will ever be able to forget the photos of these adorable two boys or forget what happened to them, and how brutally their lives were taken.

Imo it's truly one of the worst murder cases involving two innocent little children when the monster who murdered them both wasn't even kin to them.

I still find it hard to grasp at times, that anyone who pretends to be human. could be so cold, callous, and brutal. I know there have been other cases of brutality of small children, but often the motive were sexual, and many times the offender was a total stranger.

The one thing those monsters have in common with CM though is they all are psychopaths.

Just like Daron Wint when he too tortured a 11 year old terrified helpless little boy for no other reason, other than because he wanted to, and knew he could. Another family, and their maid wiped out when diabolical evil entered their home.

Yet this case is even worse, if possible, because CM looked into the little terrified eyes of children he knew well, and killed them with a sledgehammer of all weapons.

His weapon of choice reveals so much about the murderer himself,and who he really is.

Imo

Oh my. I wish I had followed your lead. I suspected CM from the get- go when I saw his rap sheet. But I got caught up in all peripheral stuff. Posted with people that swore he was innocent. Kept thinking is it just me? Had this niggling in the back of my mind. Then, as time went on I dropped out. Had just come from a trip abroad. Got off the plane, looked at CNN and there it was. CM arrested and in handcuffs. My jaw hit the floor.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Yes! Major boo-boo on CMs part to say something like "the way I envision that night (Feb 4) is that I was home....." errr, ummm, he should have his alibi solidified by now! Guilty!

LMBO! this reminds of the techniques LE often uses when interviewing a murder suspect.

They pretend they are just stumped, and have no clue how the murderer pulled off the murders.

So they kindly ask the suspect, 'how do YOU think it happened', and so many times the suspect is such a narcissistic, they fall for it, hook, liner, and sinker. Lol!

 

[travelbug]

How does that taint one's view of the evidence in the trial though? The jurors will get to discuss the evidence eventually.

What is frustrating is the video coverage of the of the trial. Most of the OS and PT testimony was accessible. The video and, in some cases audio, ceased shortly thereafter. Even the audio capture was nearly indecipherable. The expert witness presentations were, for the most part, visual. The QB experts used displays, as did the cellphone experts and the vehicle experts used diagrams and video. Even though Tortoise and Missy have done an excellent job of describing what was presented nothing compares to seeing evidence and witnesses yourself. Most exhibits and displays I have had to discover through research. Not everyone is interested in doing that. If you had a large family picture, that included 2 or 3 generations, and the photographer sent you a print with half a dozen missing faces and/or family members would you be satisfied with the result? That is the how I feel regarding the PT and DT presentations thus far. I am hard of hearing and a stickler for evidence, therefore I'm exceptionally unhappy about the lack of adequate visual coverage. That may not bother others at all. jmo

 

[citygirl]

What is frustrating is the video coverage of the of the trial. Most of the OS and PT testimony was accessible. The video and, in some cases audio, ceased shortly thereafter. Even the audio capture was nearly indecipherable. The expert witness presentations were, for the most part, visual. The QB experts used displays, as did the cellphone experts and the vehicle experts used diagrams and video. Even though Tortoise and Missy have done an excellent job of describing what was presented nothing compares to seeing evidence and witnesses yourself. Most exhibits and displays I have had to discover through research. Not everyone is interested in doing that. If you had a large family picture, that included 2 or 3 generations, and the photographer sent you a print with half a dozen missing faces and/or family members would you be satisfied with the result? That is the how I feel regarding the PT and DT presentations thus far. I am hard of hearing and a stickler for evidence, therefore I'm exceptionally unhappy about the lack of adequate visual coverage. That may not bother others at all. jmo

I totally get this. We are at a disadvantage due to poor coverage. Very frustrating. I wonder if we well get transcripts eventually?

 

[Timekeeper65]

did you vote in the poll?

POLL

Thanks @LadyL just voted

 

[oceanblueeyes]

My concern, at this point, has nothing to do with emotions. I'm observing the testimony and exhibits carefully. I then evaluate the quality of the "C.E." using that criteria. It is irrelevant if I think CM is a jerk or a gambler, I need to agree, to my satisfaction, that he is directly involved in the murder of this family. Had the initial "potential crime scene" been secured and properly examined this would be much easier. However, with a house accessible to anyone and SDSD and Dugal stating "it didn't appear to be a crime scene" I am not ready to make that decision yet. jmho

Hi travelbug!

I'm confused. What does emotions have to do with it?

I respect any way you choose to weigh the evidence as I do with all others.

However for me, the location of the where the murders took place isn't important to me, since its not a legal requirement that the 'where' must be proven.

If that was truly the legal requirement for prosecutors then murder cases where the murder location is unknown, justice wouldn't ever be served, but it is because that is not required.

Many bodies have been tossed in fields or in bodies of water, some were skeletons when found. LE did not know were they had been murdered, but they did know they were victims of homicide, and they were able to arrest, and the Prosecutors then convicted the suspects.

Same as all missing body cases. They don't even know where the bodies are located, much less know where they were murdered. Yet those unknowns does not prevent the state from successfully convicting those who have been accused.

Although I think the items ( lots of CE) found in the graves fully supports them being murdered at home.

The state can only give their theory because no one else was there, but the victims and killer, and they based it on the evidence they have collected. The evidence supports the murders were inside their home. Imo.

They must only prove 3 elements.

1. And 2. What has to be proven is WHO the victims are, and they all died by violent homicidal means. The state has proven both requirements.

3. CM is guilty BARD of all 4 murders based on the evidence presented?
IMO, ABSOLUTELY!

It doesn't matter where he may have killed them. Imo, they have met their legal burden by proving, BARD, he DID kill them.

Imo

 

[missy1974]

What is frustrating is the video coverage of the of the trial. Most of the OS and PT testimony was accessible. The video and, in some cases audio, ceased shortly thereafter. Even the audio capture was nearly indecipherable. The expert witness presentations were, for the most part, visual. The QB experts used displays, as did the cellphone experts and the vehicle experts used diagrams and video. Even though Tortoise and Missy have done an excellent job of describing what was presented nothing compares to seeing evidence and witnesses yourself. Most exhibits and displays I have had to discover through research. Not everyone is interested in doing that. If you had a large family picture, that included 2 or 3 generations, and the photographer sent you a print with half a dozen missing faces and/or family members would you be satisfied with the result? That is the how I feel regarding the PT and DT presentations thus far. I am hard of hearing and a stickler for evidence, therefore I'm exceptionally unhappy about the lack of adequate visual coverage. That may not bother others at all. jmo

Yes, it's going to be extremely unfortunate that we won't have the visuals for the defense experts, audio is better than nothing, however, how do you "hear" what they are showing on the screens? lol

That may not bother others at all. jmo

Also from your above post... I agree

I totally get this. We are at a disadvantage due to poor coverage. Very frustrating. I wonder if we well get transcripts eventually?

Transcripts would be good, but since there are already hundreds of exhibits, and probably lots more to come, without the exhibits sometimes it's pretty hard to understand.

Maybe we will get lucky and L&C will go back for the last few weeks once they quit taking a week off ... every week lol