OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#45

[Sleuthinsleuther]

I read through the discovery for AW. Does anyone know who Elizabeth Wagner may be? I've never heard of this person.

Jw wifey I think

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Thanks for answering my question, I tend to wonder about the motives and psychology involved, like we had a discussion on here that helped me understand that the Wagner's are an enmeshed family. Text book definition of one in my opinion.

Thanks for letting me know that GW4 asked for his ex-wife's psyc/evaluation while he was in jail. This surprised me as I thought all this occurred before Nov.13 2018. Yes I agree that it speaks volumes that he would rather his son be in foster care than with his ex, or so it apperars.

In your other post to me you bring up another point that will now "drive me crazy" (thankx...LOL) That what if Fred switched the plates in the BPV 's? Those plates can and do come out and are designed to get replaced. But why go through the trouble of switching plates? I mean it would be easier to just hide/destroy/bury the vests.

Here are some behavioral red flags having to do with an enmeshed family. In reading this it helps me to understand why GW4 would go along with the fAMILY PLAN to kill---even though he had the least to gain.............
_______________________________________________________________
Families that are enmeshed often have a set of spoken, or unspoken, rules that govern the member’s behaviors even into adulthood. Do these sound familiar to you?

• Don’t talk to outsiders about what goes on in our family. That is our business and our business only.
• What Mom and Dad say/believe/think/feel about you is what is right, never mind that you are 45 years old and have been on your own for 27 years.
• It’s okay for you to be a little bit different from us in some ways, but there is a line that you can’t cross in this family and still be accepted (maybe you can’t be a Democrat, or a gay person, or marry outside of our race).
• The cost of being different is to be cut off. We cannot accept differences that challenge our rigid sense of who this family is.
• *******EVEN AS ADULTS, you will conform to the wishes of “the family” instead of make your own mind up about how, where, and with whom you wish to live your life.

BBM

In your other post to me you bring up another point that will now "drive me crazy" (thankx...LOL) That what if Fred switched the plates in the BPV 's? Those plates can and do come out and are designed to get replaced. But why go through the trouble of switching plates? I mean it would be easier to just hide/destroy/bury the vests.

Because there is a record of her buying them? I think she bought two bullet proof vests and either bought two more after the murder or bought new plates with a later manufacture date. If there is a record of her buying them, destroying or throwing them away would make her look more suspicious. No one throws away two new and expensive items like that.

And you are welcome. lol. I have been driven crazy more than once during this case.

 

[I'mNosyRosy]

I had hoped a JW Alaskan wife was a rumour. I'm sorry to bring her up. If she really did exist maybe she's the informant. Most importantly, and why I do bring it up is -- what could AW have been trying to do with this persons SS number.

 

[NWLady]

We have all seen it. The tough guy with something to prove to daddy. In this case daddy is a big boy who looks and probably talks tough. I think George is closer to Billy and Jake is closer to Angie. So I think George did all the tall talking about revenge to get daddy's approval.

But George had the least stake in all this. He had his kid. Full custody. He had the most to lose. I don't think George or Billy gave a flying flip whether Jake got custody of SW or not. This was all Jake's show with Angie right behind him and maybe even Fred. But I do think Chris knew something on Fred and the W4 that might endanger Georges custody of his son so he went along to stay out of jail. He will roll the first for the same reason. Because he is a scared little kid inside a man's body who no longer has to impress daddy with how tough he is.

Also because he desperately wants his son. He obviously does not think the mother of his son is capable to raise him since he asked for a mental eval on her while he was in jail. That says to me that George would rather have his son be with anyone besides his ex wife even if it is foster care. Says volumes.

I think Billy went along because he wanted to keep himself and his mother out of jail. Note I said himself and his mother. I have pointed out the deep resemblance between Fred and Angie, enough that Angie looks more like Fred's daughter than Robin does. I don't think Billy gave a rat's rear whether Angie went to jail or not or whether Jake had custody of SW. For Billy it was all about his mother. I do not think he will roll for that reason.

I think Angie and Jake are actually the strongest of the bunch emotionally so they will not roll. If you do not think they are, think about their demeanor in court. Angie and Jake are all smiles. Not a care in the world. They are like ice coated steel.

George is scared to death and Billy is sullen and trying still to look tough for mama.

JMO

Respectfully, BBM:

I feel right now that IF any of the 4 take a plea, it will be AW. I can't really give a reason as to why I feel that way, it's just a gut feeling. I think AW appears to be smiling nervously, because by the time she is leaving the court room and heading for the door, she looks as if she is going to start crying any second.

JW, on the other hand, appears cocky/arrogant and thinks he is smarter than anyone else and I feel he believes there's no way the charges are going to stick. JW has probably always gotten his way and I think his attitude is that he is above and beyond others and he truly feels he will walk free - thus, the reason why he is always smiling because I truly think he feels there is some humor in all of this - (as sick as that may sound). I also feel that especially JW has no regrets for what allegedly took place and if he had to do it all over again, that he would.

GWIV appears very angry to me and very nervous, but more so angry. Not sure who he is angry at - is he angry with himself, is he angry with one or all of the other 3 charged or is he just angry because of the whole situation, I don't know. I noticed when the judge at this last hearing asked him questions and he answers that he does not include "your honor" but rather simply yes or no. (or I should say at least I don't believe I heard him say "your honor")

As far as GWIII (Billy) I think he plays the let's play dumb role because it might get me out of this and/or the attitude that I'm not really worried because momma will pull strings and help me through all this somehow.

One also has to wonder, how much attention each of those 4 get from FW? For example, does FW put money on the books for Billy and possibly her grandsons but maybe not AW? Or maybe she is only backing Billy and none of the others? I don't know, but maybe time will tell.

As for FW, I do truly believe she thinks she is above and beyond everyone else as well and has probably always bought her way in or out of things and she too is very confident she will walk free with maybe just a slap on the hand (which would not surprise me if that's how it ends up for her).

This is all JMO.

 

[Jonas_Klein]

I don’t know if you could call me an expert but I am a nurse who deals with mental health issues. IMO he is not a sociopath. Sociopaths do not show remorse or empathy for others. The fact that he appears angry at pretrial & needing to read his Bible shows remorse. I think his love and concern for his son shows empathy. These are not the usual emotions for a sociopath IMO

Your clarification of the sociopath pathology is useful. Thx.

He cares for his child, this is true. His child is a little bit the extension of himself, I don't know if caring for his child is truly a socially empathic behaviour. Maybe.

He did not show that much empathy when he took his child to AK so far away from his mother. Poor child, he likely missed his mother. G4 doesn't seem to care about her either.

Is he showing remorse? It's early to tell. We've heard only from his attorney.

My mind isn't made up yet. This crime is horrific. If the boondocks Saint video clip is part of the evidence, there must be a mental health issue somewhere. Idk. JMO.

 

[rsd1200]

Your clarification of the sociopath pathology is useful. Thx.

He cares for his child, this is true. His child is a little bit the extension of himself, I don't know if caring for his child is truly a socially empathic behaviour. Maybe.

He did not show that much empathy when he took his child to AK so far away from his mother. Poor child, he likely missed his mother. G4 doesn't seem to care about her either.

Is he showing remorse? It's early to tell. We've heard only from his attorney.

My mind isn't made up yet. This crime is horrific. If the boondocks Saint video clip is part of the evidence, there must be a mental health issue somewhere. Idk. JMO.

I don't see remorse. I don't feel he is particularly angry, I think that is his "resting face" (to put it politely). He just has a naturally sullen look about him. In the photos his ex had/has on her FB, he truly appeared to be happy during that time. She did too, then, their divorce was filed, by G4, on 11/26/2014 (they'd barely been married two years). IIRC, around that date, was about the same time period, that things started going downhill between HMR and JW. It may mean nothing at all though.

 

[rsd1200]

Off topic, but there's that name again, another particularly heinous crime. Columbus this time, she went missing two years ago.

Human legs found in Columbus identified two years later

Mother in search of the rest of her daughter's body after legs found at recycling center

That's horrifying.

 

[Howcanppldosuch]

Prior to this what was the demeanor of th 4? Any hot heads? Billy get along with his sister etc?

 

[rsd1200]

My 2 Cents........I am sure she changed her Will after the arrests,
and people do Trusts when they want to protect their money/estates in their Wills.
With 3 of her heirs in jail she has to protect Robin's (and other family members?) inheritance. If these 3 heirs are convicted but still later get an inheritance, they will lose it all in civil wrongful death lawsuits.

Even if they are acquitted they can still be sued, think OJ.
EXAMPLE:

Preponderance of the Evidence
Civil cases, on the other hand, are not as difficult to prove in court. Instead of proving your case beyond any reasonable doubt, the plaintiff must only show that their proposition is more likely to be true than not true. The preponderance of the evidence standard of proof (AKA balance of probabilities) is essentially met if there is greater than 50% chance that the plaintiff’s claims are true.

An Example: O.J. Simpson’s Criminal Case vs. Civil Lawsuit
The infamous O.J. Simpson case is a good example of how these two standards of proof differ from one another. While the prosecution had more than enough evidence to prove a preponderance of the evidence, the defense was able to bring forth many arguments which raised reasonable doubt with the jurors, and as such, Simpson was acquitted.

Later, in the civil wrongful death lawsuit brought against O.J. by the parents of Ron Goldman and the estate of Nicole Brown, O.J. Simpson was found responsible for the murders and ordered to pay $33.5 million in compensatory and punitive damages. In this case, the plaintiffs only had to show that Simpson was more-likely responsible for the murders than not.
Preponderance of Evidence vs. Beyond a Reasonable Doubt

Perfect example, @Cool Cats . I think of the OJ case often, especially when I get to feeling too sure about anything (and not just court cases). I was much younger then, by 25 years, but I remember watching them chase that white bronco down the highway. First case I really got glued to, and I thought it was a done deal, I was convinced, that jury would find him guilty-as-charged. Even with the glove. ("If it doesn't fit, you must acquit."). it doesn't take much to pull that little display off with a glove of that type... I digress. Should one, or more of the Ws, be found guilty, and one or more, acquitted, (for example), I suppose that the victim's families could still include the acquitted ones in any civil suits? I hope that someone thoroughly documents this case, from just prior to the families becoming enmeshed, to the end of the trial, and reproduces it in book format, someday. Night Owl here, just pondering.

 

[rsd1200]

Prior to this what was the demeanor of th 4? Any hot heads? Billy get along with his sister etc?

We know that G3 had a pretty heated moment of road rage at least once in his lifetime. It involved brandishing a firearm. From the way I understood, the firearm was in AW's purse. She apparently gave it to him when he asked for it. So it seems she does as he says. Me, personally? Over road rage? I'd have told my husband to chill, and would've moved my purse, well out of his reach.

Road rage incident
George 'Billy' Wagner III pleads not guilty to 22 charges in Rhoden family slayings

 

[Jonas_Klein]

Respectfully, BBM:

I feel right now that IF any of the 4 take a plea, it will be AW. I can't really give a reason as to why I feel that way, it's just a gut feeling. I think AW appears to be smiling nervously, because by the time she is leaving the court room and heading for the door, she looks as if she is going to start crying any second.

JW, on the other hand, appears cocky/arrogant and thinks he is smarter than anyone else and I feel he believes there's no way the charges are going to stick. JW has probably always gotten his way and I think his attitude is that he is above and beyond others and he truly feels he will walk free - thus, the reason why he is always smiling because I truly think he feels there is some humor in all of this - (as sick as that may sound). I also feel that especially JW has no regrets for what allegedly took place and if he had to do it all over again, that he would.

GWIV appears very angry to me and very nervous, but more so angry. Not sure who he is angry at - is he angry with himself, is he angry with one or all of the other 3 charged or is he just angry because of the whole situation, I don't know. I noticed when the judge at this last hearing asked him questions and he answers that he does not include "your honor" but rather simply yes or no. (or I should say at least I don't believe I heard him say "your honor")

As far as GWIII (Billy) I think he plays the let's play dumb role because it might get me out of this and/or the attitude that I'm not really worried because momma will pull strings and help me through all this somehow.

One also has to wonder, how much attention each of those 4 get from FW? For example, does FW put money on the books for Billy and possibly her grandsons but maybe not AW? Or maybe she is only backing Billy and none of the others? I don't know, but maybe time will tell.

As for FW, I do truly believe she thinks she is above and beyond everyone else as well and has probably always bought her way in or out of things and she too is very confident she will walk free with maybe just a slap on the hand (which would not surprise me if that's how it ends up for her).

This is all JMO.

I agree very much with what you say about AW.

I said earlier that AW probably lack self esteem, I still believe so.

She seems resigned to receiving punishment in her expression and the way she speaks the few words she's allowed to. If one feels remorse, it's her.

Did you notice, she is still in prisoners' dress? Any explanation for it? I think it's her choice. She is ready for her judgement. JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

Perfect example, @Cool Cats . I think of the OJ case often, especially when I get to feeling too sure about anything (and not just court cases). I was much younger then, by 25 years, but I remember watching them chase that white bronco down the highway. First case I really got glued to, and I thought it was a done deal, I was convinced, that jury would find him guilty-as-charged. Even with the glove. ("If it doesn't fit, you must acquit."). it doesn't take much to pull that little display off with a glove of that type... I digress. Should one, or more of the Ws, be found guilty, and one or more, acquitted, (for example), I suppose that the victim's families could still include the acquitted ones in any civil suits? I hope that someone thoroughly documents this case, from just prior to the families becoming enmeshed, to the end of the trial, and reproduces it in book format, someday. Night Owl here, just pondering.

Thankx.
You and I would have had a field day if there was Websleuths back during the OJ trial.
Don't remind me about the gloves lol....

Yes, if 2 were found guilty and 2 were aquitted, those acquitted still could be sued but under the advice of an attorney. A good attorney would know if there was enough evidence to launch a civil lawsuit. If the evidence tanked in the criminal trial it might also tank in a civil trial. But if it's an OJ situation where there WAS a lot of good evidence, then the expense and time of a civil trial would be worth it, especially if the attorneys are paid on a contingency basis.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

I don’t know if you could call me an expert but I am a nurse who deals with mental health issues. IMO he is not a sociopath. Sociopaths do not show remorse or empathy for others. The fact that he appears angry at pretrial & needing to read his Bible shows remorse. I think his love and concern for his son shows empathy. These are not the usual emotions for a sociopath IMO

How about Jake? All smiles from day one.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

Perfect example, @Cool Cats . I think of the OJ case often, especially when I get to feeling too sure about anything (and not just court cases). I was much younger then, by 25 years, but I remember watching them chase that white bronco down the highway. First case I really got glued to, and I thought it was a done deal, I was convinced, that jury would find him guilty-as-charged. Even with the glove. ("If it doesn't fit, you must acquit."). it doesn't take much to pull that little display off with a glove of that type... I digress. Should one, or more of the Ws, be found guilty, and one or more, acquitted, (for example), I suppose that the victim's families could still include the acquitted ones in any civil suits? I hope that someone thoroughly documents this case, from just prior to the families becoming enmeshed, to the end of the trial, and reproduces it in book format, someday. Night Owl here, just pondering.

I watched OJ also. I knew at the end they would acquit. Casey Anthony also. The evidence just wasn't there. Hubby and I had a big "discussion" right before the Anthony verdict came in. He was sure they would convict but I was sure the evidence was not there that she actually killed Caylee. But that doesn't go to say I think either one of them are not guilty.

JMO

 

[Tiff23fr]

General Question:
Does each piece of evidence get a unique number that is not reused such as pictured with the vests? I don't want to speculate based on tv shows

Example- Since the BPV's show marker numbers 27 and 28, does that mean as more discovery comes out and cases get underway that reference to evidence items 27 or 28 will always pertain to the vests?

 

[Betty P]

I don’t know if you could call me an expert but I am a nurse who deals with mental health issues. IMO he is not a sociopath. Sociopaths do not show remorse or empathy for others. The fact that he appears angry at pretrial & needing to read his Bible shows remorse. I think his love and concern for his son shows empathy. These are not the usual emotions for a sociopath IMO

I don't see him expressing remorse, at least not yet. His need to allegedly read a Bible, if anything, shows he regrets putting himself in his current situation. JMO, any guilt he might feel is for the way he's left his child without a parent for the time being. He's not sorry he killed the Rhodens & Hannah Gilley, he's just sorry he was caught.

The nature and extent of the Rhoden/Gilley massacre betrays a warped and persistent form of sociopathy/psychopathy. The murders required so much planning and detailed execution that the killers could have stopped or changed their mind many, many times. Methodically slaughtering people (mostly) sleeping in their beds and removing evidence as they moved from one home to the next and the next reveals a dedication and commitment to the crime that didn't cool down between the murders. Given time between murders to reflect on the brutal massacre of their friends, GW4 and the others chose to keep going, to drive to the next home again and again.

Sociopaths and psychopaths are usually adept at compartmentalizing their feelings and relationships. They're capable of feeling empathy and concern for some people while murdering others. Maybe it comes from the ability to "other" victims - to dehumanize them. The violent movie they were fans of helped in that process.

All JMO.

 

[Betty P]

I think the control of children is a blanket statement meaning that this is the type of family that when they have children, any children whether it's Jake/George as kids or now the grandkids, they want complete decision making power. An EX can visit, but has no decision making rights.

This started with Fred and Bob (GW2) isolating and controlling their children and then controlling them with money as adults. Then Billy and Angela do the same, isolating and controlling their children, and then also controlling them through money and property as adults (Peterson Rd. house was put in their name). Now you have 5 controlling adults all focused on 2 children.

These 5 controlling people: Fred, Billy, Angie, George4 and Jake are now wanting control...ie...total decision making power--- over the 2 children--- and it was dynamite waiting to go off.....AND IT WENT OFF.

Even if Fred did not know about the murder plan I believe that she egged Jake and the others on about Jake getting full custody and how this, as Jake puts it, "is in Sophie's best interest"........My 2 Cents........

Multi-generational "enmeshed" family.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

Multi-generational "enmeshed" family.

The Wagners are a overbearing family that lives above the law, from what I read of the autopsy reports some of the victims where shot up very brutal, if GW4 did murder this family,he is a animal that needs caged in solitary JMO.

 

[Betty P]

The Wagners are a overbearing family that lives above the law, from what I read of the autopsy reports some of the victims where shot up very brutal, if GW4 did murder this family,he is a animal that needs caged in solitary JMO.

Agree, these were premeditated, brutal, methodical executions, not spree-type killings in the heat of anger. There's no empathy or remorse for the victims.

Prosecutors have built a strong case with good evidence, not circumstantial. These monsters were not nearly as smart as they thought. If they're smart, they'll start working on a plea deal. JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

MAP OF RHODEN AND WAGNER HOMES IN PROXIMITY TO EACH OTHER.....