Madeleine McCann - Netflix documentary on this case

[Ruben71]

I remember some parents at our kindy had trafficking fear

But when I looked into it, I couldn't find any evidence that rustling of 3 year olds is a thing - indeed the well known cases were all on snopes

Yeh it is an odd one and clearly a little blonde English girl from a fairly wealthy middle class family is not usually the target of trafficking. I believe they normally go for kids that have had some history of neglect and are involved with social services etc. I cannot write off the chance that this could've been a very well planned and well funded operation to kidnap a pretty little white girl and they targeted the area because the police are not very efficient in the area and people are on holiday and relaxed etc. Whether it was for sexual exploitation or for adoption I don't know but definitely possible.

 

[Mrs Marple]

pedophiles typically do not strike at 3 year olds - the victims are usually much older

So this sort of offending would be very unusual - yet AFAIK, no other such offending has been reported

Typically is not the same as never. We've had cases with babies, a three year old isnt out of the question. It's less likely she was taken for a family imho as she would have memories of having another family, at least in 5jr beginning. The twins would have been a more likely age range.

 

[scadagirl28]

My impression is that the investigation was bungled from the beginning, and moreso when investigators focused on the parents. Portugal seems to have a bad case of tunnel vision.

I think one of the problems with this case is they looked out before looking at those closest to her. I think that actually did a disservice to the McCanns If innocent and Madeleine if not.

 

[otto]

I think one of the problems with this case is they looked out before looking at those closest to her. I think that actually did a disservice to the McCanns If innocent and Madeleine if not.

Those closest to her, being her parents and their friends, were having dinner together between the time that Madeleine was put to bed and the time that she was noticed missing. Therefore, all those closest to her were immediately ruled out.

The apartment was unlocked, and there was no one watching the children. Anyone who was familiar with the parents' daily habits and dinner hour knew exactly when Madeleine could easily be abducted.

 

[Meep22]

I think you guys all bring up great points. Also, hi! I'm new here.

But I think if we go back to the basics of the case, we can agree that there is no evidence whatsoever that there was an intruder/abductor. There is no physical evidence, there are no credible eye witness accounts, and there is no mention from the other McCann children of them hearing or seeing anyone. I think it's easy to think that some kind of organized crime ring is responsible with trained abductors that would steal a child and leave without a trace, but statistically this is unlikely to the point of impossible. A child is more statistically likely to be abducted in public (even if out with mom or dad) then through a home invasion.

As another poster mentioned, children who are trafficked are usually vulnerable already and much easier to kidnap because they will not be looked for as hard (marginalized, poor children, children of addicts etc). For a European crime faction to abduct a child on holiday from her own room would be extremely risky and what would the profit be? If it's a pedophile then there would still be far easier targets. The netflix doc shows how visible the area around the apartment was, there are clear sightlines on all sides in a private resort. That is not an easy target.

Also, the mother's statement is most telling. Why would she assume someone had taken her child? Wouldn’t she assume that Maddie has wandered off or gone missing? If she truly believed right away that she was taken, why would she leave the other children alone in the apartment? Why didn’t they wake up throughout the commotion of her looking in the apartment? And afterwards in the press videos she did not look like someone who was out of their mind with panic and anxiety over not knowing where their child was, she looked like someone who already knew her child was dead and was grieving. I think the overdose theory is most likely. Also, I find it telling that the only other witness to confirm that the children were asleep and alright the night of admitted he never even went into the room. What kind of check system is that? You would at least count heads if no actually go up to each child to make sure they were okay. These are very young children we are talking about who would need diaper changes and maybe late evening snacks or water. What group of 2 and 3 year olds all sleep through the night?


According to the CNN there are an average of 500 children killed every year in the US by their parents, which accounts for 60 percent of child murders. Unless evidence is found that a unknown male or female person was in the apartment in the night in question, I see no reason to deviate from Occam’s razor. The simplest explanation is that Maddie overdosed (or choked due to vomit due to an overdose) and her parents disposed of the body. The how and why of this is more complex but if convicted both would lose their licenses to practice medicine and their remaining children. Also, they were by the sea and near old wells and fields that were unused. As a methodical search of the land was not completed, I don’t think it’s that unusual that she was never found. Many people are never found. To imagine that she was smuggled as part of a rich person adoption scheme is wishful thinking (so that she is still alive and cared for).


While I don’t believe there is some grand conspiracy at play to cover it up in favour of the parents, I do think their actions were telling after the fact and they had PR people on their side always to support the reasonable doubt/ abductor angle. Frankly, I’m surprised they were never charged.


I do find the police investigation to be lacking, because I think they should have performing a more thorough search and should have interviewed every single person and staff of the resort and surrounding area. With that evidence it would be clear if anyone else was involved.


All my opinions obviously, but would love to hear your thoughts

 

[scadagirl28]

Those closest to her, being her parents and their friends, were having dinner together between the time that Madeleine was put to bed and the time that she was noticed missing. Therefore, all those closest to her were immediately ruled out.

The apartment was unlocked, and there was no one watching the children. Anyone who was familiar with the parents' daily habits and dinner hour knew exactly when Madeleine could easily be abducted.

My problem is unreliable narrator's are in charge of the timeline and I haven't ever heard definitely where he came in , the window or the door. Also the DNA in the rental car where the spare tire was , a fabricated story or are we arguing about how many cells count for identification in each country ? Moo

 

[scadagirl28]

I think you guys all bring up great points. Also, hi! I'm new here.

But I think if we go back to the basics of the case, we can agree that there is no evidence whatsoever that there was an intruder/abductor. There is no physical evidence, there are no credible eye witness accounts, and there is no mention from the other McCann children of them hearing or seeing anyone. I think it's easy to think that some kind of organized crime ring is responsible with trained abductors that would steal a child and leave without a trace, but statistically this is unlikely to the point of impossible. A child is more statistically likely to be abducted in public (even if out with mom or dad) then through a home invasion.

As another poster mentioned, children who are trafficked are usually vulnerable already and much easier to kidnap because they will not be looked for as hard (marginalized, poor children, children of addicts etc). For a European crime faction to abduct a child on holiday from her own room would be extremely risky and what would the profit be? If it's a pedophile then there would still be far easier targets. The netflix doc shows how visible the area around the apartment was, there are clear sightlines on all sides in a private resort. That is not an easy target.

Also, the mother's statement is most telling. Why would she assume someone had taken her child? Wouldn’t she assume that Maddie has wandered off or gone missing? If she truly believed right away that she was taken, why would she leave the other children alone in the apartment? Why didn’t they wake up throughout the commotion of her looking in the apartment? And afterwards in the press videos she did not look like someone who was out of their mind with panic and anxiety over not knowing where their child was, she looked like someone who already knew her child was dead and was grieving. I think the overdose theory is most likely. Also, I find it telling that the only other witness to confirm that the children were asleep and alright the night of admitted he never even went into the room. What kind of check system is that? You would at least count heads if no actually go up to each child to make sure they were okay. These are very young children we are talking about who would need diaper changes and maybe late evening snacks or water. What group of 2 and 3 year olds all sleep through the night?


According to the CNN there are an average of 500 children killed every year in the US by their parents, which accounts for 60 percent of child murders. Unless evidence is found that a unknown male or female person was in the apartment in the night in question, I see no reason to deviate from Occam’s razor. The simplest explanation is that Maddie overdosed (or choked due to vomit due to an overdose) and her parents disposed of the body. The how and why of this is more complex but if convicted both would lose their licenses to practice medicine and their remaining children. Also, they were by the sea and near old wells and fields that were unused. As a methodical search of the land was not completed, I don’t think it’s that unusual that she was never found. Many people are never found. To imagine that she was smuggled as part of a rich person adoption scheme is wishful thinking (so that she is still alive and cared for).


While I don’t believe there is some grand conspiracy at play to cover it up in favour of the parents, I do think their actions were telling after the fact and they had PR people on their side always to support the reasonable doubt/ abductor angle. Frankly, I’m surprised they were never charged.


I do find the police investigation to be lacking, because I think they should have performing a more thorough search and should have interviewed every single person and staff of the resort and surrounding area. With that evidence it would be clear if anyone else was involved.


All my opinions obviously, but would love to hear your thoughts

Welcome Meep 22!

 

[Mrs Marple]

I think the focus on this being a lone wolf random attack may not be right. There may have been 2-3 of them - a look out, one that went into the apartment and maybe one that waited outside to take Madeleine from the through window. It was still low season and the road was quiet. Its plausible. But just a theory. There was no trace because that is what these people do. There are hundreds, thousands of kids across the world who have gone missing without a trace. It just so happens that the McCanns were bloody good at keeping it in the public eye when so many others have been forgotten.

 

[Meep22]

I think the focus on this being a lone wolf random attack may not be right. There may have been 2-3 of them - a look out, one that went into the apartment and maybe one that waited outside to take Madeleine from the through window. It was still low season and the road was quiet. Its plausible. But just a theory. There was no trace because that is what these people do. There are hundreds, thousands of kids across the world who have gone missing without a trace. It just so happens that the McCanns were bloody good at keeping it in the public eye when so many others have been forgotten.

That's definitely possible, and I would consider it as a more probable theory if the McCanns could be conclusively excluded from the suspect list, but they can't. And it also raises questions regarding the timing of this group and their motivation. If they are so skilled at stealing children without a trace, why would they target this child and not her siblings? Surely 3 children is worth more than 1? And if Maddie was targeted specifically, for what purpose? There was no ransom, which would at least come up with a plausible motive.

I find it very hard to believe someone could sneak into a room and grab a child (if that child was not sedated) and not wake the child, or the other children in the room. If Maddie was alone in the apartment it would make more sense.

You're right that there are thousands of children who have gone missing that are never found, but that doesn't mean we should consider the absence of physical evidence of an intruder as evidence that there was a very skilled intruder (or group of abductors).

By that logic, one could claim that Maddie wandered out on her own and fell into the pool and drowned, then was pulled out by a staff member who feared they would be blamed, and being a local, knew where to hide a body.

Also, I'm not sure I explained that right but you know what I mean

 

[Mrs Marple]

Paedophiles. It would have been more risky to take than 1. Plus they order children. I know this from someone who worked in this area. Age. Gender. Skin colour. It's beyond what normal people can comprehend.

Alesha Macphail was taken from her bed in the middle of the night from her bedroom when there were 4 adults in the house at the time and no one knew she was gone until morning. It's not only possible, it has happened.

As for the McCanns it's the timeline. Its always the timeline. That's why so many think she died earlier in the holiday and other people were paid to cover it up. I don't buy into that theory at all.

 

[Meep22]

Human and child trafficking is a real and horrific crime that is all too prevalent in our society. But the case you cited of Alesha Macphail does not fit that pattern as the murderer knew the victim's father and residence. It was a sadistic crime of opportunity.

And as for paedophiles that buy children, I still think the risk of taking a visiting British child would be much more risky than the usual trafficking methods (exploiting marginalized or neglected children, poor children, children of addicts, orphans, etc). Sadly, there is no shortage of vulnerable children in the world (of all ages, genders, skin colour etc).

Lastly, I'm not convinced that she died earlier in the holiday, could she not have died earlier that day/night? From what I understand for the cadaver dog to pick up the scent she only had to be dead for 3 hours and no other witness can confirm that she was alive past 5:30pm. Plus then again the scent in the rental car.

I fully admit that all the evidence against the McCann's is circumstantial, but they are the only known suspects that had means, motive and opportunity.

 

[Mrs Marple]

I quoted the Macphail case because you said you didn't think they could get a child out of a room without waking them. I'm well aware it's a different scenario.

She was seen at around 5.30 by hotel staff. If she died at 5.45pm in the apartment, she would have been there still at 8.45pm, if the dog testimony is accepted as evidence. The Maccans were at the table at around half eight. If the dogs were wrong, then maybe there would have been time. They could have killed her cleaned the scene disposed of the body then got ready and acted like nothing had happened in front of their friends by half eight. As it would have been light for some of that time l wonder how likely it was they could have taken her somewhere without being seen. They had no access to a car. No one has said they had access to a boat or saw either of them on the beach or marina. I don't think Smithman is credible, but if you did, it can't be Gerry because he was at the Tapas bar. It doesn't stack up. They aren't criminal masterminds, they would have missed something.

 

[FairM1]

There is no evidence the parents were involved. That apartment was an easy target to abduct a child from, hell of a coincidence if it was the parents given how easy that apartment was being right next to the road with the door left open. Parents who kill their child do not then spend the next 12 years actively looking for the child as these parents have.

 

[rosesfromangels]

There is no evidence the parents were involved. That apartment was an easy target to abduct a child from, hell of a coincidence if it was the parents given how easy that apartment was being right next to the road with the door left open. Parents who kill their child do not then spend the next 12 years actively looking for the child as these parents have.

Agree wholeheartedly.
They used poor judgement, and have to live with that for the rest of their lives.

I see people on vacation suspend good judgement on a regular basis. Do risky sports in foreign lands with limited emergency care and so forth.
They think they are in a magical bubble where no harm can befall them.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Mrs Marple]

Also agree. These people are ambassadors for missing people; they have helped set up a European wide alert system. Sure, they were stupid, they aren't even particularly likeable, but there's no evidence they harmed their daughter. I could almost feel sorry for them for this awful thing that has happened to them, and they are still subject to accusations founded on nothing concrete.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Also agree. These people are ambassadors for missing people; they have helped set up a European wide alert system. Sure, they were stupid, they aren't even particularly likeable, but there's no evidence they harmed their daughter. I could almost feel sorry for them for this awful thing that has happened to them, and they are still subject to accusations founded on nothing concrete.

Yes....
This seems straightforward to me. Apartment right on the street, if I understand correctly. Someone at the resort was watching/stalking, and snatched her. They had a quick getaway given the location of the apartment.
Maybe some day her remains, or some of them may be found...but I think it will be after the Perp dies and his belongings are being sorted through. Yes, he probably kept souvenirs to nourish his memory...burnish it in his mind.
Poor child. Such a sad reminder for all parents.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[otto]

My problem is unreliable narrator's are in charge of the timeline and I haven't ever heard definitely where he came in , the window or the door. Also the DNA in the rental car where the spare tire was , a fabricated story or are we arguing about how many cells count for identification in each country ? Moo

Evidence in the car was discussed in the Netflix program. There was no DNA evidence of anything incriminating. It was a "nothing." As far as where the intruder entered the apartment, the shutters were closed when they left, open when Madeleine was missing, and they closed them again. I guess that means someone came in through the window.

 

[leannemac]

First time poster here! I have a few questions about rumors I've seen floating around about this case since the Netflix doc came out and was wondering if there were any reliable sources to substantiate any of these claims. Forgive me if these have been long answered already, but I'm deep diving into this case for the first time!

-Madeleine's DNA was found in Murat's house?
-Gerry McCann and Murat's phones were switched off at the same time for 30+ hours?
-Murat hired the hire car that dogs alerted to for the McCanns under his ex wife's name?

Also - I know that the DNA tested in the apartment and the hire car could not be conclusively linked to Maddie but were they ever confirmed to be blood/body fluids at all? Because even if wasn't Maddie's - it raises the question of whose blood/fluids it was. However if it was a sample of hair or skin flakes it could make more sense for it to be present.

 

[BlinkOfAnI]

First time poster here! I have a few questions about rumors I've seen floating around about this case since the Netflix doc came out and was wondering if there were any reliable sources to substantiate any of these claims. Forgive me if these have been long answered already, but I'm deep diving into this case for the first time!

-Madeleine's DNA was found in Murat's house?
-Gerry McCann and Murat's phones were switched off at the same time for 30+ hours?
-Murat hired the hire car that dogs alerted to for the McCanns under his ex wife's name?

Also - I know that the DNA tested in the apartment and the hire car could not be conclusively linked to Maddie but were they ever confirmed to be blood/body fluids at all? Because even if wasn't Maddie's - it raises the question of whose blood/fluids it was. However if it was a sample of hair or skin flakes it could make more sense for it to be present.

Hello & welcome to WS's! There is a thread on Netflix's MM doc. You might want to check it out and share your thoughts and questions in the current discussion.
Netflix documentary on this case released soon

 

[the seeker]

Paedophiles. It would have been more risky to take than 1. Plus they order children. I know this from someone who worked in this area. Age. Gender. Skin colour. It's beyond what normal people can comprehend.

Alesha Macphail was taken from her bed in the middle of the night from her bedroom when there were 4 adults in the house at the time and no one knew she was gone until morning. It's not only possible, it has happened.

As for the McCanns it's the timeline. Its always the timeline. That's why so many think she died earlier in the holiday and other people were paid to cover it up. I don't buy into that theory at all.

I agree with you. Just because the majority aren't taken from their rooms does not mean it is not the case here. There are PLENTY of famous cases and little known cases, where children WERE taken from their rooms while asleep or even sometimes awake, for sexual purposes. OF ALL AGES. From rich or poor families, doesn't matter...no one is immuned.

There is no way this is a cover up for the McCanns. One of those friends of theirs WOULD have said something by now, especially if they had no other involvement. Only if they had involvement would they keep silent...so I do not buy the accidental overdose theory. They did NOT have time to do all they did that day, plus deal with a murder of a child and dispose of a body, and get their story straight in that short amount of time. It is not feasible at all.

If the McCann's had any involvement, they would simply be silent. They would NOT keep bringing her case into the light. They would simply be glad is was fading away from the public awareness, but this is not the case...they WANT people to look for their daughter. Guilty people do NOT do this.

All that being said, there are several cases where a specific child or children were targeted. Maddie was targeted, clearly. And whoever had him in her sights was absolutely willing to put himself at risk to have her. This person had been watching the family probably since their arrival. He knew the routine. He knew who slept where. He probably even was watching her while she was in the "children's program" during the day....which is something that is barely mentioned. Who was in the proximity of where the children played during the day?? I think that is key. This person coveted Maddelyn and targeted her specifically.