CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #14

[ilovewings]

I flipped it over to ID when I first read your post, ilovewings. I guess different shows are on, depending on each one's own time of day at the time.

I have never been able to catch the McStay case on ID or OWN so I sure hate I missed it again.

As far as believing they were forced out of their home at gunpoint is a good theory.

What is even better is the jurors are legally allowed to have their own theories as well as to where the actual murders may have occurred, and they do not have to be in agreement with each other either.

This is allowed because the state has only offered their theory where they think it happened. Imo their theory is based on all of the CE pieces found at the gravesites. I do think the evidence does support their theory, and can see why they believe it happened inside of their home.

Some jurors may agree with the state's theory, but then others may think it happened else where, like you do.

In the end it really doesn't matter as far as finding guilt or NG of the defendant ,and that is why its permissible for the jurors to have their own held opinions on where it may have happened.

All the jury is there to do is decide one thing only, one way or the other.

And that one question is: Did CM murder all four, regardless of where it may have happened or when it may have happened, or what all may have happened or even why it may have happened.

I do believe the state has proven BARD, he DID commit all four murders. Imo.

It's only the one, 'Did he do it?' question that will be answered by his jury, when they render their final verdict. On this one question, they do have to be unanimous of course.

Imo

You make some good points: I do believe that CM is the killer ---I do wonder though if the jury has concerns as to where the family was actually murdered, would they then possibly question the entire prosecution case? just asking. Too bad you couldn't get that program this morning: it was excellent: they did show a photograph of what appeared to be blood specs on a table; apparently at the time the photo was taken they didn't know what those spots or specs were. I also heard on this program that CM did not cash the $4000.00 check- so why wouldn't he have cashed it?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

You make some good points: I do believe that CM is the killer ---I do wonder though if the jury has concerns as to where the family was actually murdered, would they then possibly question the entire prosecution case? just asking. Too bad you couldn't get that program this morning: it was excellent: they did show a photograph of what appeared to be blood specs on a table; apparently at the time the photo was taken they didn't know what those spots or specs were. I also heard on this program that CM did not cash the $4000.00 check- so why wouldn't he have cashed it?

Thank you. I think you bring up an excellent point too ilovewings..

This is the way I look at that question. LOL!

I tend to go with what may be simplistic to some, but for me, it's what I think is the most logical conclusion to any question.

I base it on that because I do feel most jurors are reasonable minded people.

So do I think a jury will let a murderer of 4 victims go free if they are convinced he is guilty. BARD, just because the state couldnt tell them exactly where he killed his four innocent victims?

My honest answer which I totally believe:

I sincerely do not believe they would ever do such an injustice.

No way, no how, would these jurors thwart justice for simply not knowing the location where he killed all four. Imhoo.

Justice hasn't been denied in missing body murders cases nor numerous other murder cases where the location of the murders remained unknown at trial.

Imo, it will not be denied for the Mcstay family either.

Jurors are much more shrewd than some may give them credit for at times.

The location does not change the facts of the case or who did it. It still all points to CM, and no one else. That is what will matter to the jury.

Imo

 

[katydid23]

I agree with your legal explanation that the jury doesn’t have to believe every step of the states murder theory. But I do hope that the state does address the issue of no blood in the home in a way that won’t prevent some jurors from questioning their other assumptions.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree with your legal explanation that the jury doesn’t have to believe every step of the states murder theory. But I do hope that the state does address the issue of no blood in the home in a way that won’t prevent some jurors from questioning their other assumptions.

Hopefully so.

I'm sure at least one of the prosecutors have had this arise before.

As you know it's really not unheard of for the exact murder location to be unknown. I'm sure they have been on other similiar cases.

I imagine in CA they will clearly layout what must be proven along with citing the actual case law.

The judge could also do in jury instructions as well.

Imo

 

[mothwings]

If the documentary filmmakers are filming the entire trial as Taylor testified, why have there been no reports of other cameras in the courtroom even after L&C stopped filming?

 

[thelmadawg]

yes - he already went through this process with DK

He realised he needed to own the sales pipe 100% so he muscled DK out.

But he didn't need DK as a business partner anymore because he could just buy SEO and he had the money to just outsource it.

Earlier I think he was quite dependent on DK - probably to do a lot of work on spec. In some ways DK did get stiffed because he hadn't protected himself and then Joey forced him out when the sales kicked in

I don't think there was any way to force DK without his agreement. He was the website brain so to speak of dropship items and the shopping cart system. Once set up, it was a fairly benign process. However, If DK didn't like the deal, all he had to do was cripple the site or take it down. DK always needed money so the $2,000 or so a month was probably quite attractive to him. I remember an email Joey sent him close to the murders. DK needed extra money again (above the agreement) to pay something like an electric bill. Joey responded something like - OK, Dude, but you really have to get your act together. Sort of a fatherly response to an irresponsible kid!

I guess the point being I think overall Joey treated him pretty well.

 

[QueenBofOB]

I don't think there was any way to force DK without his agreement. He was the website brain so to speak of dropship items and the shopping cart system. Once set up, it was a fairly benign process. However, If DK didn't like the deal, all he had to do was cripple the site or take it down. DK always needed money so the $2,000 or so a month was probably quite attractive to him. I remember an email Joey sent him close to the murders. DK needed extra money again (above the agreement) to pay something like an electric bill. Joey responded something like - OK, Dude, but you really have to get your act together. Sort of a fatherly response to an irresponsible kid!

I guess the point being I think overall Joey treated him pretty well.

JM sounded like a TRUE friend. One, that others knew they could depend on, to help them out. Always.

 

[Force Ten]

Holy cow!! Tricia is the new host of Sword and Scale......WOW.

 

[Niner]

*Status Hearing-no jurors today! (@ 9am PT) - CA - McStay Family: Joseph (40), Summer (43), Gianni (4) & Joey Jr (3) (Feb. 4, 2010, Fallbrook; found Nov. 11, 2013) - *Charles "Chase" Ray Merritt (57/now 60) arrested (11/5/14) & indicted (11/7/14) of 4 counts of murder with special circumstance; plead not guilty. DP case.
Trial started 1/7/19. Dark on all Fridays. 12 jurors & 6 alternates were finalized on Tuesday (12/11/18). 8 women & 4 men, while the alternates include 4 men & 2 women.
See Trial Days 1 (1/7/19) thru 26 (2/28/18) links - reference post #541 here:
CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #12
See Trial Days 27 (3/4/19) thru 30 (3/12/19) - reference post #171 here:
CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #13
3/13/19 Day 31: Judge Michael A. Smith is addressing the jury about Gov. Newsom's moratorium on death penalty, "It has no effect on this phase of the trial. Also don't consider that for any purpose. I will guide you on law." Defense witnesses: Sara Taylor Jarvis, Merritt's daughter. Catherine Jarvis, ex of Merritt's. Trial continues on 3/14.
3/14/19 Day 32: Defense witness: Catherine Jarvis. Trial continues to Monday, 3/18.
3/18/19 Day 33: Defense witness: Susan Blake. Trial continues to Tuesday, 3/19.
3/19/19 Day 34: Defense witnesses: Sgt. Joseph Steers. Alex Quick (DofJ, assigned to San Diego County Sheriffs Homicide). Court was in session for just 2 hours this morning. Next trial court date is Wednesday, 3/27 at 1:30pm. There is an “Other Hearing” on 3/26 re Status of Subpoena duces tecum (Microsoft). Subpoena records received from San Antonio Reg. Hospital.
3/20/19: Judge and counsel only.
Schedule for week of 3/25: NO COURT for jurors: March 25 (Monday). On 26 (Tuesday). “Other” Hearing re Status of Subpoena duces tecum (Microsoft). March 27 (Wednesday) starts @ 1:30pm. NO COURT: 28th (Thursday), 29th (Friday), April 1 (Monday), 2 (Tuesday). April 3 (Wednesday)-Morning session only. Jurors informed they should have the case by end of April.

 

[Force Ten]

*Other Hearing-no jurors today! (@ 9am PT) - CA - McStay Family: Joseph (40), Summer (43), Gianni (4) & Joey Jr (3) (Feb. 4, 2010, Fallbrook; found Nov. 11, 2013) - *Charles "Chase" Ray Merritt (57/now 60) arrested (11/5/14) & indicted (11/7/14) of 4 counts of murder with special circumstance; plead not guilty. DP case.
Trial started 1/7/19. Dark on all Fridays. 12 jurors & 6 alternates were finalized on Tuesday (12/11/18). 8 women & 4 men, while the alternates include 4 men & 2 women.
See Trial Days 1 (1/7/19) thru 26 (2/28/18) links - reference post #541 here:
CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #12
See Trial Days 27 (3/4/19) thru 30 (3/12/19) - reference post #171 here:
CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #13
3/13/19 Day 31: Judge Michael A. Smith is addressing the jury about Gov. Newsom's moratorium on death penalty, "It has no effect on this phase of the trial. Also don't consider that for any purpose. I will guide you on law." Defense witnesses: Sara Taylor Jarvis, Merritt's daughter. Catherine Jarvis, ex of Merritt's. Trial continues on 3/14.
3/14/19 Day 32: Defense witness: Catherine Jarvis. Trial continues to Monday, 3/18.
3/18/19 Day 33: Defense witness: Susan Blake. Trial continues to Tuesday, 3/19.
3/19/19 Day 34: Defense witnesses: Sgt. Joseph Steers. Alex Quick (DofJ, assigned to San Diego County Sheriffs Homicide). Court was in session for just 2 hours this morning. Next trial court date is Wednesday, 3/27 at 1:30pm. There is an “Other Hearing” on 3/26 re Status of Subpoena duces tecum (Microsoft). Subpoena records received from San Antonio Reg. Hospital.
3/20/19: Judge and counsel only.
Schedule for week of 3/25: NO COURT for jurors: March 25 (Monday). On 26 (Tuesday). “Other” Hearing re Status of Subpoena duces tecum (Microsoft). March 27 (Wednesday) starts @ 1:30pm. NO COURT: 28th (Thursday), 29th (Friday), April 1 (Monday), 2 (Tuesday). April 3 (Wednesday)-Morning session only. Jurors informed they should have the case by end of April.

I hope we at least get the audio for the hearing.

 

[mrjitty]

Hopefully so.

I'm sure at least one of the prosecutors have had this arise before.

As you know it's really not unheard of for the exact murder location to be unknown. I'm sure they have been on other similiar cases.

I imagine in CA they will clearly layout what must be proven along with citing the actual case law.

The judge could also do in jury instructions as well.

Imo

It's common as hell - per Robert K Ressler's "Whoever Fights Monsters" on the early profiling work he did at Quantico

In these kinds of cases, there are up to 3 different crime scenes - with one hidden.

The place where the bodies are found is actually known officially as "the crime scene". But this is usually a dumping ground rather than a murder scene.

Before the dumping ground is the murder scene. This is location where the murderer feels confident and secure to control the victim(s). This site may never be discovered.

Before that is the scene where the victims were last known to be alive. Sometimes the victim(s) are abducted from that scene, sometimes murdered there.

Obviously I am no expert profiler to analyse the McStay case. However these kinds of profile insights will have been deployed when the bodies were discovered to get a handle on what the killer might be like.

IMO based on some broad brush stuff, there is zero chance the McStays were alive at the grave sites. It's too exposed. The grave location is somewhere the killer felt confident to dump the bodies. Although it lacks the privacy level of say a forest, at the right time of day, he was actually quite unlikely to be disturbed there. The killer had to make the best of local terrain, and will be highly familiar with the location.

I think we can't know for sure if there was an interim murder scene but I think practicalities speak against it. e.g stuff from the house in the graves, no shoes etc etc. And actually the house provided a perfect secluded place where he was unlikely to be disturbed.

Based on his writing, IMO the staging is what Robert Ressler would have been most interested in.

This tells us the killer is someone close to the family. How the staging was done is far less important than why it was done.

Critically, the staging makes no sense for DK. His has an alibi that he was in Hawaii. He didn't need the family to go missing.

 

[mrjitty]

I don't think there was any way to force DK without his agreement. He was the website brain so to speak of dropship items and the shopping cart system. Once set up, it was a fairly benign process. However, If DK didn't like the deal, all he had to do was cripple the site or take it down. DK always needed money so the $2,000 or so a month was probably quite attractive to him. I remember an email Joey sent him close to the murders. DK needed extra money again (above the agreement) to pay something like an electric bill. Joey responded something like - OK, Dude, but you really have to get your act together. Sort of a fatherly response to an irresponsible kid!

I guess the point being I think overall Joey treated him pretty well.

IIRC Joey's email to his webhost kind of explains his thinking on DK and how he had changed the relationship.

He seemed to be now treating DK not as a partner but as a supplier and wanted to unpick the relationship.

The key point - per Corn - is that Joey seems to accept DK was an owner of the business in the infamous IMs but refuses to pay him out. I don't know if Joey subsequently did do a deal or how that worked, but i think it is fair to say he forced DK out.

 

[Tortoise]

If the documentary filmmakers are filming the entire trial as Taylor testified, why have there been no reports of other cameras in the courtroom even after L&C stopped filming?

This motion hearing here discusses the documentary filmmakers camera and it's a small camera next to the court clerk focused on Merritt.

The judge also mentions two small cameras at the back of the courtroom but I don't know who owns them.

I think media must have had their own camera in there when Taylor testified, as the small portion they showed was of better quality than L&C's coverage IMO.

 

[Tortoise]

It's common as hell - per Robert K Ressler's "Whoever Fights Monsters" on the early profiling work he did at Quantico

In these kinds of cases, there are up to 3 different crime scenes - with one hidden.

The place where the bodies are found is actually known officially as "the crime scene". But this is usually a dumping ground rather than a murder scene.

Before the dumping ground is the murder scene. This is location where the murderer feels confident and secure to control the victim(s). This site may never be discovered.

Before that is the scene where the victims were last known to be alive. Sometimes the victim(s) are abducted from that scene, sometimes murdered there.

Obviously I am no expert profiler to analyse the McStay case. However these kinds of profile insights will have been deployed when the bodies were discovered to get a handle on what the killer might be like.

IMO based on some broad brush stuff, there is zero chance the McStays were alive at the grave sites. It's too exposed. The grave location is somewhere the killer felt confident to dump the bodies. Although it lacks the privacy level of say a forest, at the right time of day, he was actually quite unlikely to be disturbed there. The killer had to make the best of local terrain, and will be highly familiar with the location.

I think we can't know for sure if there was an interim murder scene but I think practicalities speak against it. e.g stuff from the house in the graves, no shoes etc etc. And actually the house provided a perfect secluded place where he was unlikely to be disturbed.

Based on his writing, IMO the staging is what Robert Ressler would have been most interested in.

This tells us the killer is someone close to the family. How the staging was done is far less important than why it was done.

Critically, the staging makes no sense for DK. His has an alibi that he was in Hawaii. He didn't need the family to go missing.

I'm interested in what the defense's trial strategy was before this confession [oh sorry I just had a little cough there] witness came forward, which wasn't that long before trial started I gather.

Even more interesting is that the defense would try to introduce confusion around the timing of the family being alive, even though there is no evidence they were alive after more or less sunset on the 4th, and there is this non-McStay truck leaving their driveway 2 hours later.

Is it to do with the cheque at the house, is it to do with the fact that Joey never called and spoke with anyone ever again after his last call to Merritt at 5.47 pm which happens to coincide with Merritt's phone immediately disconnecting from any and all cell towers, while Cathy tried in vain to reach him over the next 3 hours and 45 mins?

Cathy alibied him, or rather attempted to, but it rather looks as if the defense knows the jury is not going to accept her testimony that he was in the area - if he's being alibied at the time that the defense says the family was still alive in their house until next morning.

Moreover, they didn't (I don't think - someone correct me if I'm wrong) ask Cathy to alibi him for the morning of the 5th when they postulate the family was abducted.

Let's not forget these two are fairly remarkable individuals in that their memories have improved in many respects over time.

At 7 am he calls his voicemail from Upland, and then his phone isn't connected again that morning until 10.45 am in Santa Clarita.

So that's another 3 hrs 45 mins. Not that I believe for one second the family was still alive on the 5th, but if they want the abduction to happen on the 5th there is time for him to drive to Fallbrook, 1 hr, round up and abduct the family at knife-point 15 mins?, drive to Santa Clarita 2 hrs, with 30 mins to spare - which can be added on to the journey times to allow for traffic conditions.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

It's common as hell - per Robert K Ressler's "Whoever Fights Monsters" on the early profiling work he did at Quantico

In these kinds of cases, there are up to 3 different crime scenes - with one hidden.

The place where the bodies are found is actually known officially as "the crime scene". But this is usually a dumping ground rather than a murder scene.

Before the dumping ground is the murder scene. This is location where the murderer feels confident and secure to control the victim(s). This site may never be discovered.

Before that is the scene where the victims were last known to be alive. Sometimes the victim(s) are abducted from that scene, sometimes murdered there.

Obviously I am no expert profiler to analyse the McStay case. However these kinds of profile insights will have been deployed when the bodies were discovered to get a handle on what the killer might be like.

IMO based on some broad brush stuff, there is zero chance the McStays were alive at the grave sites. It's too exposed. The grave location is somewhere the killer felt confident to dump the bodies. Although it lacks the privacy level of say a forest, at the right time of day, he was actually quite unlikely to be disturbed there. The killer had to make the best of local terrain, and will be highly familiar with the location.

I think we can't know for sure if there was an interim murder scene but I think practicalities speak against it. e.g stuff from the house in the graves, no shoes etc etc. And actually the house provided a perfect secluded place where he was unlikely to be disturbed.

Based on his writing, IMO the staging is what Robert Ressler would have been most interested in.

This tells us the killer is someone close to the family. How the staging was done is far less important than why it was done.

Critically, the staging makes no sense for DK. His has an alibi that he was in Hawaii. He didn't need the family to go missing.

Thank you MrJitty!

This is very revealing information for all of us to consider. Imo.

While the location where the murders took place is questioned by some in this case, I still think the logical conclusion is the murders took place inside of their home, and then their bodies transported to the desert for burial.

As you mention it would be way too risky to take 4 alive victims out of the home, drive all the way to the desert, and then commit it there.

Especially since there wouldnt be any need for CM to do the murders else where.

The evidence we do have found in the graves points to the murder location as being inside of the home, and not else where. Imo.

CM would have the protective security of an enclosed home to do all of his murderous deed. Which is exactly what he did. Imo.

I think it all began inside the home when CM said Joey was in his office at his desk in front of his computer.

IMo, That's why CM knew Joey's exact location on the 4th because CM was also right there in the same room with him, and inside of their home with all four inside at the time when it all began.

Imo

 

[mrjitty]

I think media must have had their own camera in there when Taylor testified, as the small portion they showed was of better quality than L&C's coverage IMO.

Yes - it had professional framing and audio

 

[Karinna]

I agree with your legal explanation that the jury doesn’t have to believe every step of the states murder theory. But I do hope that the state does address the issue of no blood in the home in a way that won’t prevent some jurors from questioning their other assumptions.

BBM, I agree, and don't know if there was any testimony by any state forensic medical expert? to address those types of blunt force trauma injuries that can have no blood evidence left at a murder scene.
I did post a link to that upthread somewhere, and it did state that often there is not a lot of blood involved in that type of crime, but of course blows to the head with a blunt heavy weapon inflicts much internal injury that is not visibly seen externally.

 

[mrjitty]

I'm interested in what the defense's trial strategy was before this confession [oh sorry I just had a little cough there] witness came forward, which wasn't that long before trial started I gather.

Even more interesting is that the defense would try to introduce confusion around the timing of the family being alive, even though there is no evidence they were alive after more or less sunset on the 4th, and there is this non-McStay truck leaving their driveway 2 hours later.

Is it to do with the cheque at the house, is it to do with the fact that Joey never called and spoke with anyone ever again after his last call to Merritt at 5.47 pm which happens to coincide with Merritt's phone immediately disconnecting from any and all cell towers, while Cathy tried in vain to reach him over the next 3 hours and 45 mins?

Cathy alibied him, or rather attempted to, but it rather looks as if the defense knows the jury is not going to accept her testimony that he was in the area - if he's being alibied at the time that the defense says the family was still alive in their house until next morning.

Moreover, they didn't (I don't think - someone correct me if I'm wrong) ask Cathy to alibi him for the morning of the 5th when they postulate the family was abducted.

Let's not forget these two are fairly remarkable individuals in that their memories have improved in many respects over time.

At 7 am he calls his voicemail from Upland, and then his phone isn't connected again that morning until 10.45 am in Santa Clarita.

So that's another 3 hrs 45 mins. Not that I believe for one second the family was still alive on the 5th, but if they want the abduction to happen on the 5th there is time for him to drive to Fallbrook, 1 hr, round up and abduct the family at knife-point 15 mins?, drive to Santa Clarita 2 hrs, with 30 mins to spare - which can be added on to the journey times to allow for traffic conditions.

I've come around to the view that the defense trial strategy is still just a pure mudslinging strategy - DK is just more smokescreen.

I'll be surprised if they have any real evidence DK was involved.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

BBM, I agree, and don't know if there was any testimony by any state forensic medical expert? to address those types of blunt force trauma injuries that can have no blood evidence left at a murder scene.
I did post a link to that upthread somewhere, and it did state that often there is not a lot of blood involved in that type of crime, but of course blows to the head with a blunt heavy weapon inflicts much internal injury that is not visibly seen externally.

I've seen this same thing about lack of blood in other blunt force trauma cases.

I'm trying to remember ( I'm old ya know so please be kind if I'm all wrong) lol but aren't they called contra coo or concave injuries or something like?

Anyway its when blunt force injuries were sustained when the skull, brain cavity, and brain suffers crushing inward blunt force trauma instead of releasing much blood outwardly.

The sledgehammer would leave inward impact crushing injuries with very little blood let on the outside. Imo

Imo

 

[missy1974]

BBM, I agree, and don't know if there was any testimony by any state forensic medical expert? to address those types of blunt force trauma injuries that can have no blood evidence left at a murder scene.
I did post a link to that upthread somewhere, and it did state that often there is not a lot of blood involved in that type of crime, but of course blows to the head with a blunt heavy weapon inflicts much internal injury that is not visibly seen externally.

After listening to the testimony below, I believe there would have been blood IMO If you don't want to watch it all, watch part 2 around 41:00, and the beginning of Part 3. McGee goes through all the skull fractures/impacts. She says which one's she would expect to see a laceration due to the force. IMO the chances that there would be no blood is pretty small, if it was just 1 victim, maybe, but with all 4, the chances that all 4 didn't bleed, I find that hard to believe, again, JMO. We have also heard from some of the detectives... Steers is one of them IIRC, that agreed, in his experience, he would have expected to see blood at the crime scene, which is why they went back to the Fallbrook house in 2014.

Dr Chanikarn Changsri - Chief Forensic Pathologist at Coroners office.