CO CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #51 *ARREST*

[1mtroyal]

A couple thoughts this morning.

PF's attorney has to do his best to defend an indefensible client. That's the way our system works. I think he knows 'winning' because of a single holdout juror is a long shot - and I suspect DA May would immediately go for a new trial if that happened.

What I think he can and will do is try to undermine KK's testimony - anything not supported by hard evidence - and hope to mitigate PF's sentence.

For example: based on the evidence we have seen (which is not all there is), I believe the defense could challenge the 'solicitation' charges. Do we actually have hard evidence - texts, for example - that PF solicited KK? Defense can claim that she was a jealous woman who made that part up, and that actually she was goading PF, encouraging him to kill her rival.

None of that would get PF off the hook for the murder, but it might lead to a slightly lighter sentence. I think the defense will try to paint a picture of two conniving people, the woman clearly the smarter and more determined of the two (she was making regular 800 mile rou2got off easy; PF was just her dummy puppet.

I don't know what the sentencing ranges in Colorado are for this kind of crime - and I don't know what kind of sentences are generally handed down for these crimes. It would be a big victory for PF (and a loss for justice) if PF gets less than a life sentence without possibility of parole.

My other thought, because I despise what this awful man did to KB - broke her heart, tore her life apart and then murdered her. It looks like he set her up in a particularly vicious way - letting her think maybe things were looking up between them.

Well, I think he got some payback for that four days before Christmas when he got arrested. Like KB, little did he know when he got up that morning what the day held for him. I'm sure he never dreamed that he has possibly laid eyes on the ranchette for the last time in his life. No warning, no 'goodbyes', and best of all, no bail.

We may not have hard evidence of his solicitation of the nurse, but we have very reliable knowledge that the nurse told someone about the solicitation well before the murder. And that someone also told someone else. I don't think the defense should go there.

 

[gitana1]

I cant help thinking that a lot of theories on this thread are written without proof. PF hasn't commented yet? He did what most people should do when faced with a crime / allegations they have or haven't committed. He lawyered up.
What makes for good reading by the prosecution and press who might be at best misleading a possible fair and honest jury to assemble at trial does not prove his guilt now. I believe the prosecution have taken a massive gamble by cutting KK a deal. This could easily turn out to be a case KK's jealousy gone horrifically wrong & a cowboy framed by saddling up with a crazed ex lover who lies. The evidence could lead in that direction & none of can make any firm conclusions until the defendant speaks.

You think the state is lying about the evidence they have?

The court held a preliminary hearing to determine if there was "proof evident" and "presumption great" that PF committed the crimes as charged and he could be held over for trial. Evidence was presented. The defense cross examined. Here is what the court ruled:

• Judge, citing statutes for proof evident presumption great hearing, says the people have established probable cause in both first-degree murder counts. Same for all three solicitation counts.
• Judge finds proof evident for tampering with evidence too. He’ll be held without bond. Judge asked defense to set trial or arraignment. Defense asks for arraignment, saying the DA’s Office just emailed 3,300 pages of discovery to him.
• Judge rules, PF will face trial on suspicion of 1st-degree murder and solicitation of murder in apparent beating death of KB.

CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #51 *ARREST*

 

[ajaylee]

IMHO, the defense could go there. If the defense paints KK as a lying, cheating conniver who chased PF (remember, she drove 800 miles to see him, never the other way around) and even borrowed and rented cars to do it, all of which is true, it's easy to see the defense suggesting that KK lied to her friend about the solicitations, too.

Don't get me wrong: based on the evidence we have, I think he's guilty. Period. Obviously I'm going to be inclined to attack anything the defense brings up. I'm just speculating on what the defense will bring up and the possible effect on the jurors.

It only takes one juror to decide that PF was a bad boy, but he was trapped between two awful women and he was just trying to protect his little girl. It only takes one juror to decided that KK was at least as evil as PF, if not more so, and it's not fair that she gets off easy and PF takes all the blame.

 

[SandyQLS]

I believe this guys math MOEO

JMO That "expert" wants to promote himself as a for-hire consultant to make money. IMO he hasn't actually looked at the data; he gave it a glance. He didn't provide any math and he definitely didn't look at a road map. He fails to explain that those arc bands to the towers stretch miles and represent all the potential places the phone could be. Your claim in your other post#906 "Seems like solid math to me" Can you show this math and explain your determination of "solid"? I'd like to see your calculations and where exactly you put these phones "together". LE could use your help because they never did, not with RTT hits.

<modsnip>

Several of their supposed points where the KB and PF phones are allegedly traveling together are geographical and logistical impossibilities - PF would have to drive at a suicidal speed to make LE's claim work. There are other statements regarding the RTT data that are simply false - good enough for probable cause and a Prelim, but useless at an actual trial unless they plan to show PF climbing a mountain with KB's phone. That's my opinion.

 

[MassGuy]

I cant help thinking that a lot of theories on this thread are written without proof. PF hasn't commented yet? He did what most people should do when faced with a crime / allegations they have or haven't committed. He lawyered up.
What makes for good reading by the prosecution and press who might be at best misleading a possible fair and honest jury to assemble at trial does not prove his guilt now. I believe the prosecution have taken a massive gamble by cutting KK a deal. This could easily turn out to be a case KK's jealousy gone horrifically wrong & a cowboy framed by saddling up with a crazed ex lover who lies. The evidence could lead in that direction & none of can make any firm conclusions until the defendant speaks.

Speaking for myself, my theory is based on the evidence.

Documented lies, texts and phone calls with a dead person, devastating cell tower data, and physical evidence that coroborates KK’s account.

He can’t be framed for murder, if everything links him to the plot. He cannot be separated from this crime, because of the coverup he committed.

If KK wasn’t there, then she wasn’t there.

And I don’t need PF to speak. The evidence will speak for him.

It is speaking for him.

Lying liars lie anyways.

 

[ab01]

Nah they don’t need my help, they have much more experienced fbi techs than me.

They have spent their entire careers learning and researching cell data.

I’m sure they are well aware of the potential speeds, terrains and directions that a phone/2 phones together would have to travel to go from one tower and ping off another in a certain amount of time.

I think they have it well in hand

ETA: MOEO

 

[MassGuy]

Nah they don’t need my help, they have much more experienced fbi techs than me.

They have spent their entire careers learning and researching cell data.

I’m sure they are well aware of the potential speeds, terrains and directions that a phone would have to travel to go from one tower and ping off another in a certain amount of time.

I think they have it well in hand

And the thing is, we’re not talking about a small time period, and geographical area.

We’re talking about two days of movement.

Two days of fake texts and phone calls.

Two days where both phones are together.

Its one thing of you are disputing the location of a phone (or phones) during one particular period of time.

Good luck casting doubt on the whole thing.

 

[Ccging]

Sam Kraemer on Twitter

Updates, hopefully more news tomorrow. Day 45 already.

 

[Seattle1]

am Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV
NEW: Woodland Park Police Chief Miles De Young just offered a brief update on the landfill search for Kelsey Berreth’s remains on Facebook. He says they’re approaching Day 45 & thanked a myriad of partners for their help. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee #KrystalKenney

11:34 AM - 3 Apr 2019 pst
Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV
De Young says he will do another Facebook live tomorrow from the Incident Command Post at the landfill. Still no word if they’ve actually found Berreth’s remains. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee #KrystalKenney

11:35 AM - 3 Apr 2019 pst

 

[PommyMommy]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1933633886763513

 

[MassGuy]

am Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV
NEW: Woodland Park Police Chief Miles De Young just offered a brief update on the landfill search for Kelsey Berreth’s remains on Facebook. He says they’re approaching Day 45 & thanked a myriad of partners for their help. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee #KrystalKenney

11:34 AM - 3 Apr 2019 pst
Sam Kraemer‏ @SamKraemerTV
De Young says he will do another Facebook live tomorrow from the Incident Command Post at the landfill. Still no word if they’ve actually found Berreth’s remains. @KOAA #KelseyBerreth #PatrickFrazee #KrystalKenney

11:35 AM - 3 Apr 2019 pst

Big week:

Custody disposition hearing and landfill update tomorrow, followed by PF’s arraignment on Friday.

Someone asked Sam if KK was pregnant, I loved his response:

“That hasn't been answered. And I get the curiosity -- but this is a question I refuse to ask. I don't feel comfortable asking it.”

 

[dixiegirl1035]

IMHO, the defense could go there. If the defense paints KK as a lying, cheating conniver who chased PF (remember, she drove 800 miles to see him, never the other way around) and even borrowed and rented cars to do it, all of which is true, it's easy to see the defense suggesting that KK lied to her friend about the solicitations, too.

Don't get me wrong: based on the evidence we have, I think he's guilty. Period. Obviously I'm going to be inclined to attack anything the defense brings up. I'm just speculating on what the defense will bring up and the possible effect on the jurors.

It only takes one juror to decide that PF was a bad boy, but he was trapped between two awful women and he was just trying to protect his little girl. It only takes one juror to decided that KK was at least as evil as PF, if not more so, and it's not fair that she gets off easy and PF takes all the blame.

Perhaps someone else here knows the statistics, but I don't see your example of what is considered to be a jury nullification to be happening in this case. At least I hope not!

 

[indicolite22]

We may not have hard evidence of his solicitation of the nurse, but we have very reliable knowledge that the nurse told someone about the solicitation well before the murder. And that someone also told someone else. I don't think the defense should go there.

Wouldn't a third person's testimony be considered hearsay in court?

 

[dixiegirl1035]

JMO That "expert" wants to promote himself as a for-hire consultant to make money. IMO he hasn't actually looked at the data; he gave it a glance. He didn't provide any math and he definitely didn't look at a road map. He fails to explain that those arc bands to the towers stretch miles and represent all the potential places the phone could be. Your claim in your other post#906 "Seems like solid math to me" Can you show this math and explain your determination of "solid"? I'd like to see your calculations and where exactly you put these phones "together". LE could use your help because they never did, not with RTT hits.

I watched the news video you provided. How pretty is the graphic with the proliferation of yellow cell towers all over this remote area, looked like about a dozen. The public is truly gullible.

Several of their supposed points where the KB and PF phones are allegedly traveling together are geographical and logistical impossibilities - PF would have to drive at a suicidal speed to make LE's claim work. There are other statements regarding the RTT data that are simply false - good enough for probable cause and a Prelim, but useless at an actual trial unless they plan to show PF climbing a mountain with KB's phone. That's my opinion.

Think of it as a pie. A cherry pie perhaps. It has three pieces.

From the center, it will go out in three different triangles.

It was shown through testimony that certain Ping's and information from the towers were from different pieces of the pie.

His piece of pie location was in a different piece of pie than her house was in.

100ft and 500 yards doesn't matter?

It is that they were both in the same piece of pie.

Oh my gosh! I owe pommy Mommy a piece of pie!

 

[ab01]

Perhaps someone else here knows the statistics, but I don't see your example of what is considered to be a jury nullification to be happening in this case. At least I hope not!

Ya I would think reasonable doubt to a juror rightfully should be directly to a certain charge. If the juror is doing their job correctly.

As in is there reasonable doubt weather or not pf killed kB.

Weather it’s fair that kk isn’t sitting next to pf and pf alone is facing a murder charged really isn’t for a juror to decide.

Their job is to consider PF guilt and culpability for what he’s been charged.

I hope the jurors will do their duties the way they should.

MOEO

 

[MassGuy]

Ya I would think reasonable doubt to a juror rightfully should be directly to a certain charge. If the juror is doing their job correctly.

As in is there reasonable doubt weather or not pf killed kB.

Weather it’s fair that kk isn’t sitting next to pf and pf alone is facing a murder charged really isn’t for a juror to decide.

Their job is to consider PF guilt and culpability for what he’s been charged.

I hope the jurors will do their duties the way they should.

MOEO

Yeah. If you’re finding PF innocent of murder, simply because you believe KK is more involved than she claims, you’re doing it wrong.

Outrage over her getting away with horrible deeds, does not nullify PF’s involvement in Kelsey’s murder.

 

[indicolite22]

It only takes one juror to decide that PF was a bad boy, but he was trapped between two awful women and he was just trying to protect his little girl.

Do you think PF (through his lawyers) would go and badmouth Kelsey (in addition to KK) in court as part of his defense? Wouldn't that indicate a motive? I think he'll probably stick to denial, regardless of the evidence.

 

[ab01]

Wouldn't a third person's testimony be considered hearsay in court?

Im not sure it would be considered hearsay if both friends were to testify. I think it would only be hearsay if friend A didn't testify and Friend B then testified that Friend A said kk said. MOEO

maybe one of our VA can weigh in as I'm really not sure

 

[MsBetsy]

Think of it as a pie. A cherry pie perhaps. It has three pieces.

From the center, it will go out in three different triangles.

It was shown through testimony that certain Ping's and information from the towers were from different pieces of the pie.

His piece of pie location was in a different piece of pie than her house was in.

100ft and 500 yards doesn't matter?

It is that they were both in the same piece of pie.

Oh my gosh! I owe pommy Mommy a piece of pie!

Great analogy! Maybe add some whipped cream on top for some good, old-fashioned common sense.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

Yeah. If you’re finding PF innocent of murder, simply because you believe KK is more involved than she claims, you’re doing it wrong.

Outrage over her getting away with horrible deeds, does not nullify PF’s involvement in Kelsey’s murder.

Hopefully, 100% of the people here would agree with that comment. ( if they believe that he is guilty of the murder)

It may be brought up during the trial, as we know so many defense lawyers like to bring up stuff in the case in Chief as an excuse for penalty , but that is only because of the second phase for sentencing after he is found guilty.

Moo